Is 1 John 2:2 Really a defence of Universal Atonement?

[Jarthur001]

Yes..............

ok...

If Gods goal was to save all of mankind...

and..

If God foreknow Cain would not believe and would go to hell...

Why did not God redeem Man before Cain was born?

Last year 56,589,034 died!!!

If half of them are not saved...half of them are going to hell.

This comes out to....28,294,517 going to hell each year based only on 50%. Most would say this is higher.

Each day that Christ does not come back, 155,000 die...half of which will go to hell...based on 50%.

If Christ goal was to save all mankind, he could have saved Adam and Eve and that would have been it. Now..Billions are lost forever more.

God KNEW Cain would not become a believe....yet he did not save ALL of mankind.


Did not God love YOU Bob and wait for you to be born to save you...even though billions died and went to hell as he waited till the time you were born?


Or was God just powerless and could not save before Cain was born...even though this was His main goal?

 

[webdog]

The RCC teaches that a person can have a 2nd chance ...for the soul goes to a holding play. I'm sure you do not believe this do you? Onces you die...it is over. You are saved forever more...or lost forever more. Do you agree?

I'm finding it's not only the RCC that teaches this from the Kingdom exclusion threads. :tear:

 

[Jarthur001]

ok...

If Gods goal was to save all of mankind...

and..

If God foreknow Cain would not believe and would go to hell...

Why did not God redeem Man before Cain was born?

Last year 56,589,034 died!!!

If half of them are not saved...half of them are going to hell.

This comes out to....28,294,517 going to hell each year based only on 50%. Most would say this is higher.

Each day that Christ does not come back, 155,000 die...half of which will go to hell...based on 50%.

If Christ goal was to save all mankind, he could have saved Adam and Eve and that would have been it. Now..Billions are lost forever more.

God KNEW Cain would not become a believe....yet he did not save ALL of mankind.


Did not God love YOU Bob and wait for you to be born to save you...even though billions died and went to hell as he waited till the time you were born?


Or was God just powerless and could not save before Cain was born...even though this was His main goal?

I will add.....

And still today He waits, for there are others He wants to bring to heaven to be with Him. Maybe they have not been born yet. When the last elect is saved...it is over. yet...each day others go to hell.

We can do the same thing to freewill.

Did God want all man saved?

or..

Did God want all men to have freewill?


You cannot have both, for at some point they overlap

 

[webdog]

ok...

If Gods goal was to save all of mankind...

and..

If God foreknow Cain would not believe and would go to hell...

Why did not God redeem Man before Cain was born?

Last year 56,589,034 died!!!

If half of them are not saved...half of them are going to hell.

This comes out to....28,294,517 going to hell each year based only on 50%. Most would say this is higher.

Each day that Christ does not come back, 155,000 die...half of which will go to hell...based on 50%.

If Christ goal was to save all mankind, he could have saved Adam and Eve and that would have been it. Now..Billions are lost forever more.

God KNEW Cain would not become a believe....yet he did not save ALL of mankind.


Did not God love YOU Bob and wait for you to be born to save you...even though billions died and went to hell as he waited till the time you were born?


Or was God just powerless and could not save before Cain was born...even though this was His main goal?

James, you have even greater problems. You love to throw out the "God is powerless" strawman, but your view logically creates God as the monsterous author of sin that He uses to wipe His hands clean of creating man for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.

 

[Jarthur001]

James, you have even greater problems. You love to throw out the "God is powerless" strawman, but your view logically creates God as the monsterous author of sin that He uses to wipe His hands clean of creating man for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.

This story was not based on my views, but rather 2 pages of asking the views of freewillers. What point would you like to change to make it better?

now...I would be glad to share my views...but you have heard them so much, you could say them back to me.


crush goes the strawman

 

[jne1611]

God never hated His creation until they did evil. You got that!

Well there you have it. Now your saying God hates even before He throws them to the fire. Pretty soon you'll make it to eternity & believe the truth about the matter.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[jne1611]

Naw, they wouldn't dive on in so they may need a push. I say they go on their own because one must work to go to hell. For the wages of sin is death. One works for wages so if you earned the wage of death then you worked for it. God gives gifts, no worky for a gift, they are freely given.

The problem is the gift was rejected. All those who reject the gift will earn the wage of death and unfortunately, become eternal fuel for the fire... Can you imagine a fire hit enough to consume hell? :BangHead:

I'll agree with that. They reject because of what they are. And God must change this or they will perish. He only does this for His elect.

 

[jne1611]

First, "World" means the whole world where contexts dictates, just like "All".
And I used a portion of Spurgeons sermon stating if it says what it says, then it is what it is. I admit I probably used to broad a statement and should have narrowed it. Now let us see again what one of those rarely's are:

1 Tim 2:3-6

Pertaining to my posting of #144

Spurgeon did not HOLD to the doctrince that Christ died for All - However He WOULD NOT try to rephase or redefine the words of scripture where it was explict what those words ment. So he said these "ALL's" in 1 Timothy mean just what they say. He goes on to say in his sermon: "I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God...

I agree Christ has redeemed some of all sorts.
Redeemed - (dictionary) To save from a state of sinfulness and its consequences.

But He atoned for All that whosoever would beleive, may be saved (redeemed).

Allan. Atonement means reconciliation. Christ only reconciled to God those who God gave to him.

 

[jne1611]

Hey, dont stop reading with that verse but continue on the next few verses for clarification where it clearly says that 'he that believeth not is condemned already'. Those who do not respond to the word are either not elect or they are elect and will be brought to faith in Christ at a later time, determined only by God, or, of course they may not be of the elect at all and totally reject Him, choosing their own damnation!
Why preach to every creature?
1) Because we are commanded to do so.
2) Because no one but God knows who the elect are and when we preach to all inclusively we are preaching to elect and non elect, being used by God to reach His chosen ones! What could be better? We are the means God uses to reach those He brings to faith in Himself!

Amen Bro.!

 

[jne1611]

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Don't we all start out "condemned already"? You were not saved before you believed, right?

True, but the elect will be the only ones brought to faith by God right?

 

[jne1611]

Yes, God knows everything.

He knows who is going to be murdered today.
He knows where the child molester lives.
He knows when and where the next school shooting will occur.
He knows how many drugs will cross the border today.
He knows who will buy the drugs.
He knows who will have their family ruined by alcohol, drugs, adultry....

Now, here is a question for you: Is God the cause of these things, or does He allow them?

The big question is are they in His will to happen? If not, has he been overthrown?

 

[jne1611]

Of course He knows who will not believe in Him and unbelief will send them to hell. Again, because He knows does not mean He caused it to happen. The choice is up to the individual.

I know you are trying to set me up James but it won't work.

Well there you have it your almost there. If He always knew they would not believe & as you say He hated His creation after they sinned. Then He always hated them. He prepared hell for them. How much more proof do you need to see how God feels about them?

 

[Blammo]

The big question is are they in His will to happen? If not, has he been overthrown?

I think I understand your question...

I would say no to both. Though I believe it is obvious God is willing to allow these things to happen, He in no way willed it to happen. Does that make any sense? I think it does. Nobody can do anything that God does not allow. But God allows people to do things that are against His will.

 

[Brother Bob]

The big question is are they in His will to happen? If not, has he been overthrown?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
How many times do you need scripture read to you before you grasp it? If its not His will they perish then it certainly is not His will they sin!!! Jeepers. HE WILL WIN IN THE END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Of course He knows who will not believe in Him and unbelief will send them to hell. Again, because He knows does not mean He caused it to happen. The choice is up to the individual.

I know you are trying to set me up James but it won't work.
Well there you have it your almost there. If He always knew they would not believe & as you say He hated His creation after they sinned. Then He always hated them. He prepared hell for them. How much more proof do you need to see how God feels about them?

Close, only counts in "horseshoes", this is much more serious.
God so loved the world.
How many times do you need scripture read to you before you grasp it.

1 John, chapter 2
1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

[jne1611]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
How many times do you need scripture read to you before you grasp it? If its not His will they perish then it certainly is not His will they sin!!! Jeepers. HE WILL WIN IN THE END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Close, only counts in "horseshoes", this is much more serious.
God so loved the world.
How many times do you need scripture read to you before you grasp it.

1 John, chapter 2
1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Scripture taken out of context is a lot different than establishing a doctrinal view based on the whole body of Scripture. Something that by now I am sure you know nothing of. So you actually think that God did not will in any way the destruction of the wicked? That's funny seeing that it is He that sends them the strong delusion that they might be damned.

 

[jne1611]

I think I understand your question...

I would say no to both. Though I believe it is obvious God is willing to allow these things to happen, He in no way willed it to happen. Does that make any sense? I think it does. Nobody can do anything that God does not allow. But God allows people to do things that are against His will.

I see your point. I believe that Scripture teaches that it is God's will in a certain way ( I'll admit that it still is a mystery to me) to permit sin & allow Satanic deception. To me the fact that He permits it says that He wills it. For if He did not will it to be, it could never have come into existence. Don't get me wrong, I do not believe that God likes sin, He hates it! But it fits into His purposes just like everything else He has ever willed to be.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Jarthur001


ok...

If Gods goal was to save all of mankind...

and..

If God foreknow Cain would not believe and would go to hell...

Why did not God redeem Man before Cain was born?

Last year 56,589,034 died!!!

If half of them are not saved...half of them are going to hell.

This comes out to....28,294,517 going to hell each year based only on 50%. Most would say this is higher.

Each day that Christ does not come back, 155,000 die...half of which will go to hell...based on 50%.

If Christ goal was to save all mankind, he could have saved Adam and Eve and that would have been it. Now..Billions are lost forever more.

God KNEW Cain would not become a believe....yet he did not save ALL of mankind.


Did not God love YOU Bob and wait for you to be born to save you...even though billions died and went to hell as he waited till the time you were born?


Or was God just powerless and could not save before Cain was born...even though this was His main goal?

I will add.....

And still today He waits, for there are others He wants to bring to heaven to be with Him. Maybe they have not been born yet. When the last elect is saved...it is over. yet...each day others go to hell.

We can do the same thing to freewill.

Did God want all man saved?

or..

Did God want all men to have freewill?


You cannot have both, for at some point they overlap

You blew it on #1.

I said it was God's will that not any perish.

I never said it was His goal.

You are putting in your own words now.

I said if it was His goal that He could do anything He wanted.

So, it makes the rest mute when you missed the first one.

Are you as mortal man beginning to question God on His creation. I think we better leave that part up to Him. Even if you

don't you have to.

I told you God loved all, because He knew what man would do does not mean He caused it.

You of course know that Jesus stood as a slain Lamb before the foundation of the world don't you?

Don't that tell you God knew some men were not going to believe.

If God is all in all, would you question He knows who will believe and who will not being He is outside of time He sees

today who will choose him and repent and be added to the church. Now that is great isn't it?

James, you need to quit trying to bring God down on the Calvinist level.

 

[jne1611]

You blew it on #1.

I said it was God's will that not any perish.

I never said it was His goal.

You are putting in your own words now.

I said if it was His goal that He could do anything He wanted.

So, it makes the rest mute when you missed the first one.

Are you as mortal man beginning to question God on His creation. I think we better leave that part up to Him. Even if you

don't you have to.

So He does not want them to perish, but He is not going to keep it from happening? He loves them, but He knows He is going to cast them to the fire? He created them knowing that He would cast them to eternal fire? Is that your idea of love? If so, no wander you find your self modifying your stance on this issue constantly. It is so much easier to believe the whole truth. Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. He says this as though he knows that someone will say "all things" That sounds Calvinistic! Surely he doesn't mean the lost as well! Not God!

 

[Brother Bob]

Scripture taken out of context is a lot different than establishing a doctrinal view based on the whole body of Scripture. Something that by now I am sure you know nothing of. So you actually think that God did not will in any way the destruction of the wicked? That's funny seeing that it is He that sends them the strong delusion that they might be damned.

You are so far off its not funny. It is the wicked he will send strong delusions. jeepers :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

 

[jne1611]

You are so far off its not funny. It is the wicked he will send strong delusions. jeepers :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

And your point being? No point at all as can be expected.