Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Then a ritual it is.

And as a ritual its only significance is in what it symbolizes.

GE:
That's not what I've meant. I think you completely missed my point.
'Baptism in the Name' is just that; it is not baptism in water. NO, 'ritual'; completely the operations of God 'in us' - not He and us doing something with or to oursleves; just God doing everything, for us.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

AliveinChrist:
"...is the assumption that proof-texting+the Holy Spirit+human reason=Truth, ie: you rely on a mixture of the Holy Spirit (Who is within all Christians) plus human fallibility to come up with the correct interpretation, which is a very 'dangerous falsehood' to adopt."

Matt Black:
"Nonsense. It is the safest, best, and only God ordained way for us to come to understand truth."

GE:
This perfectly contrasts truth (Alive) and error (Matt).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My views are actually closer to this. (Which in some respects is calvanistic) Salvation begins with God and his will. Which causes him to choose me (or any believer). God works through out your life and your experience to draw you to him (kind of like irrestible grace but not really) You can either choose to accept the faith he freely offers or not. Though not to accept that grace is like the choice of an insane person. The only reasonable responce is to accept. Once accepted you are a new creature (new Nature). Nature acts in accordance with itself it can't do otherwise. Therefore works are the natural outcome of that nature. You are living that salvation. Not to do works is contrary to the new nature and it can only be surmised that salvation is not at work in you. So works are the key indicator (according to James) of that salvation. But there is participation in that you are working with respect to the new nature and battle against the old. You continue to live out that salvation. Then when all is said and judged you continue to live salvation in the heavenly reward. All of it is salvation. So when are you saved? when God's grace was given. when God chose me. when I accepted his gift. When I live in that grace. When I enjoy the reward of heaven.
So in the respect that there are not works the person is not living according to a new nature which can only mean it doesn't exist in that person. A thing acts according to its nature it is impossible to do otherwise. Christians have two natures at war but the New Nature is the greater and ultimately victorious. A flower blooms in spring why? Because it is its nature to do so. A dead fower doesn't bloom because its in its nature. So it is with the Christian. In the end my works are that of a son who loves his father (in otherwords not coerced from me in fear of damnation). It is just the nature of the thing.

GE:
GE:
And my views are actually closer to this.... which I trust in every respect is ‘Calvinistic’.
Salvation begins with God and his will and is ended with God and his will.
It is God’s will, freedom, election and eternal predestination which causes Him to choose me and everyone of his Elect from among all, lost sinners.
God in actual irresistible grace works throughout our life and experience but chiefly through His Word the Scriptures to through Jesus Christ draw us to Him—
because it is His will and good pleasure.
By this grace God through His Holy Spirit by the hearing of His Word, regenerates the dead in sins sinner, and creates within him a clean heart and a renewed and right spirit—
because it is His will and good pleasure.
God through the Holy Spirit thus created a new man, the reborn child of God and citizen of the Kingdom of God—
because it is His will and good pleasure.
This God avails through the forgiveness of one’s sin and the justification of him on the strength of the atonement Jesus Christ availed and perfected through suffering, death and resurrection—
because it is His will and good pleasure.
God, further awakens the knowledge and realisation of this—all the works of God, in us through the gift of His grace in us, saving faith—
because it is His will and good pleasure.
By this faith we take hold on the grace of God through our Saviour Lord Jesus Christ. The first act of obedience of the new-born man is faith in God and his love and grace—
because even this is God’s will and good pleasure prepared for us from before to do.
The first manifestation of the new man’s first act of obedience in faith now, is, to take up and live his new freedom which is his free choice in everything he does—
because even this is God’s will and good pleasure prepared for us from before to do.

Faith is not that whereby the sinner is regenerated a new man. The sinner-elect is regenerated by the Holy Spirit— in which regeneration every and all the gifts of God’s grace – like faith – are appropriated the treasures of every Elect.





TS:
“You can either choose to accept the faith he freely offers or not.”
GE:
How can you accept faith without faith? You cannot accept faith without grace first accepted you! You cannot choose to accept or refuse the faith that God freely gives, or God could not give faith, nor could give it freely— because it is not God’s will or good pleasure to be coerced by the capriciousness of man.
It is not faith that is offered us; it is grace and salvation which in its self-offering, gives itself to us. That was how Christ gave Himself not only for us, but to us.
In and with the gift of Christ through grace, we receive the gift of God’s grace namely of the faith whereby a man is both justified and shall live.
TS:
“Though not to accept that grace is like the choice of an insane person”—
TS:
which is the true state of any unregenerate— because it is not God’s will or good pleasure that any such like swine should eat the pearl of great value.
TS:
“The only reasonable response is to accept.”
GE:
Yea, that is what a reborn person would think; but to the unregenerate is most foolish.
TS:
“Once accepted you are a new creature (new Nature).”
GE:
No; you must first because of the free will and good pleasure of God, be recreated a new creature before you would be able to ‘accept’ or would be willing to ‘accept’.
TS:
“Nature acts in accordance with itself it can't do otherwise.”
GE:
‘Nature’, is man’s will and choice and inclination and desire. It cannot do, will or choose, against or otherwise than its nature dictates.
TS:
“Therefore works are the natural outcome of that nature.”
GE:
Works are ‘therefore’— nature dictating, the natural outcome of both the ‘new nature’ and the ‘old nature’. Like the good tree cannot but bring forth good fruit, so the poisonous tree cannot but yield poisonous fruit.
TS:
“You are living that salvation. Not to do works is contrary to the new nature and it can only be surmised that salvation is not at work in you. So works are the key indicator (according to James) of that salvation.”
GE:
No; faith is, Hb11:1, “Faith is the evidence of things not seen”— salvation is that thing not seen, but believed and evidenced by being believed. Salvation is not evidenced by works, or who will have enough and good enough works for prove of his salvation? No; that is legalism. I think we do not understand James correctly.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

TS:
“But there is participation in that you are working with respect to the new nature and battle against the old. You continue to live out that salvation. Then when all is said and judged you continue to live salvation in the heavenly reward. All of it is salvation. So when are you saved? when God's grace was given. When God chose me. when I accepted his gift. When I live in that grace. When I enjoy the reward of heaven.”
GE:
Good!
Except:
“When are you saved?” – only logically, for the sake of our understanding of things –, is before, “When I live in that grace”; and “When I live in that grace”, comes after that I was made alive in and by that grace!
In the moment and event of salvation, the difference is not in chronological sequence, but it is a difference in comprehension; in its consequence. In ‘our living that salvation’, there are the two facets, the first, the facet of completed and perfected salvation in and through Christ by faith through grace; and the subsequent facet, the by the grace of God life and living-facet, of that once for all, wrought, salvation— still and for always: by the grace of God! By the grace of God, or it is hypocrisy and pretence.
TS:
“So in the respect that there are not works the person is not living according to a new nature which can only mean it doesn't exist in that person. A thing acts according to its nature it is impossible to do otherwise.
Christians have two natures at war but the New Nature is the greater and ultimately victorious. A flower blooms in spring why? Because it is its nature to do so. A dead flower doesn't bloom because its in its nature. So it is with the Christian. In the end my works are that of a son who loves his father (in other words not coerced from me in fear of damnation). It is just the nature of the thing.”
GE:
Praise God for his mercy; His Name, for He is merciful!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Gerhard,

In your post 142, you have the names reversed.

My statement is credited to Matt, and Matt's statement is credited to me.

I appreciate that you agree with my point of view, but having the credits reversed will cause confusion.

I am the one advocating "sola scriptura"

Matt is advocating the traditions of men.


:godisgood:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Apologies, Alive?!

I am trying slowly to train myself to make reference to the idea, and to address the idea rather than the author of it, directly.
That way, it does not matter so much who the author is. But I admit, this was an important idea about which to be confused for the father of another's idea! Sorry again!
Using this method of addressing the issue directly without making mention of whom the idea came from, also makes it safer from looking like a personal attack.
But the disadvantage again, of this method is that acknowledgement and credit is not given to the author of the opposed or commented upon idea, which may look like plagiarism.
So maybe one must just stick to the acknowledging quote, and be more careful to mention the right author.
I'll try harder.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But I think you should have another look at my post 142; I credit you, 'Alive', with 'truth', and debit Matt with 'error'.

 

[TCGreek]

GE:
That's not what I've meant. I think you completely missed my point.
'Baptism in the Name' is just that; it is not baptism in water. NO, 'ritual'; completely the operations of God 'in us' - not He and us doing something with or to oursleves; just God doing everything, for us.

A person is saved at the moment of trusting Christ for salvation, believing he died for our sins and was raised from the dead.

Water baptism comes after...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

A person is saved at the moment of trusting Christ for salvation, believing he died for our sins and was raised from the dead.

Water baptism comes after...

So salvation = Justification. Salvation is nothing more than Justification is what you seem to be saying. And if it is at the moment you trust there is no calling out on the Lord. And who gives you the belief to trust to begin with? And I wonder if the theif on the cross believed that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the Dead? Lots and lots of questions.

 

[DHK]

And who gives you the belief to trust to begin with

And who gives you the belief that when you put your key in your door and unlock it that you will be able to open it and enter in your house? Was it God?

Does the Bible say: Believe with God's belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. I have never read any such verse like that yet.

The belief must come from you. It is your decision, your choice to believe. God is not going to force you to believe. The choice is all yours to make. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You make the decision.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And who gives you the belief that when you put your key in your door and unlock it that you will be able to open it and enter in your house? Was it God?

Does the Bible say: Believe with God's belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. I have never read any such verse like that yet.

The belief must come from you. It is your decision, your choice to believe. God is not going to force you to believe. The choice is all yours to make. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You make the decision.

Sounds like you're saving yourself. I personally don't think that you can come to God all on your own. But that the Holy Spirit enlightens and gives you the grace to be able to choose. God harden Pharoahs heart and softens yours.

 

[DHK]

Sounds like you're saving yourself. I personally don't think that you can come to God all on your own. But that the Holy Spirit enlightens and gives you the grace to be able to choose. God harden Pharoahs heart and softens yours.

The Holy Spirit draws you. The Holy Spirit convicts you. But the Holy Spirit does not give you faith.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
NOT
Believe with God's faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Where did you get that idea from?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Holy Spirit draws you. The Holy Spirit convicts you. But the Holy Spirit does not give you faith.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
NOT
Believe with God's faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Where did you get that idea from?

Initially John Calvin. Irresistable faith where this verse is quoted

44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[DHK]

Initially John Calvin. Irresistable faith where this verse is quoted

44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

How is a person drawn?
He is drawn by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
The decision is still yours to make.
It is your faith, your choice, your decision whether or not to trust in Christ. It cannot be any other way. Who does the calling: you or God?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

How is a person drawn?
He is drawn by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
The decision is still yours to make.
It is your faith, your choice, your decision whether or not to trust in Christ. It cannot be any other way. Who does the calling: you or God?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved?

I don't save myself. I can't even begin to believe until the HS opens my eyes. Once he does that how can I do but accept him? Irresistable.

 

[DHK]

I don't save myself. I can't even begin to believe until the HS opens my eyes. Once he does that how can I do but accept him? Irresistable.

It is Christ that saves:
by grace,
through faith
not of yourselves. It is not of works.
And you can resist the Holy Spirit. The Bible gives plenty of evidence of that:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I did not disagree with you that the Holy Spirit must open your eyes. In fact that is the point I emphasized.
But you must make the choice. You must believe.
The ones that will be in heaven are the "whosoever will's" of the Bible.
We are saved by faith and faith alone.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is Christ that saves:
by grace,
through faith
not of yourselves. It is not of works.
And you can resist the Holy Spirit. The Bible gives plenty of evidence of that:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I did not disagree with you that the Holy Spirit must open your eyes. In fact that is the point I emphasized.
But you must make the choice. You must believe.
The ones that will be in heaven are the "whosoever will's" of the Bible.
We are saved by faith and faith alone.

So then faith is given to you. If all you do is choose that doesn't mean you've established your own faith. You just chose a faith given. To believe on Jesus or not to. Simple. The faith is not of yourself as you've pointed out. Thanks for agreeing. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

So then faith is given to you.

God does not give faith to the unregenerate. Please demonstrate that through the Scriptures if it is true.

If all you do is choose that doesn't mean you've established your own faith.

Faith is choosing. What are you talking about? If you choose Christ it is by faith. Faith is trust, confidence. It is not blind. It is based on knowledge. If I am buying a car I choose one based on the knowledge of cars that I have. If I choose a Saviour I choose the One that can save me, based on the knowledge that I have (the gospel--the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) as opposed to Buddha or Allah. Faith is based on knowledge; it is not blind. Neither is it given to you by God (when speaking of salvation). Does God also give you the "faith" to believe in Allah, if you so choose? You have every right to put your faith in Allah. Why don't you? What is the difference between putting your faith in Allah or in Christ? Why one and not the other? It is lyour faith, trust, confidence; your decision. What do you base it on? No one is forcing you to become a Christian. Grace is not irresistable.
See Acts 7:51 Just as your faith to believe in Allah or in any idol does not come from God, neither does your faith to believe in Christ come from God either. God does not give faith to the unregenerate.

 

[TCGreek]

So salvation = Justification. Salvation is nothing more than Justification is what you seem to be saying. And if it is at the moment you trust there is no calling out on the Lord. And who gives you the belief to trust to begin with? And I wonder if the theif on the cross believed that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the Dead? Lots and lots of questions.

"Abraham believed God and it was credit to him as righteousness" is the staple of how a person becomes right from God.

Whatever God reveals to a person as the minimum to be right with him, once the person trusts God on those terms, that person is in the right with God.

So Abraham believed God. The thief believed God. We believe God. But we'll find that the requirements are different, but the "righteous will live by faith."

Trust in God never changes, though the requirements may.

 

[Matt Black]

And who gives you the belief that when you put your key in your door and unlock it that you will be able to open it and enter in your house? Was it God?

Does the Bible say: Believe with God's belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. I have never read any such verse like that yet.

It does however say that Jesus Christ is the "author and perfecter of our faith" (Heb 12:2). So there you have it: faith begins, ends and has all points in between, with Jesus, not with us.