Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

[Thinkingstuff]

God does not give faith to the unregenerate. Please demonstrate that through the Scriptures if it is true.

Faith is choosing. What are you talking about? If you choose Christ it is by faith. Faith is trust, confidence. It is not blind. It is based on knowledge. If I am buying a car I choose one based on the knowledge of cars that I have. If I choose a Saviour I choose the One that can save me, based on the knowledge that I have (the gospel--the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) as opposed to Buddha or Allah. Faith is based on knowledge; it is not blind. Neither is it given to you by God (when speaking of salvation). Does God also give you the "faith" to believe in Allah, if you so choose? You have every right to put your faith in Allah. Why don't you? What is the difference between putting your faith in Allah or in Christ? Why one and not the other? It is lyour faith, trust, confidence; your decision. What do you base it on? No one is forcing you to become a Christian. Grace is not irresistable.
See Acts 7:51 Just as your faith to believe in Allah or in any idol does not come from God, neither does your faith to believe in Christ come from God either. God does not give faith to the unregenerate.

Faith is establish by God. He opens my eyes so I can recieve that faith. He says to me here is faith which you can have I accept it or not to. I didn't enable myself to obtain faith. If that is the case I don't need God to "open my eyes". I could obtain faith without God's intervention at all. No. God provides the faith my role is acceptance or denial of that faith. though I wonder how much denial capability I have once my eyes are open.
Wait..... Maybe you and I have different understanding of faith. You are equating faith to just belief. or Faith = Belief. To me faith is more than just belief. However, in order for you to belief you must first be prepared by the HS. Uregenerant man will never accept the Lord unless the Lord first works in him.

 

[BTM]

Rom 10:17 says that "...faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Man is a free moral agent and has the responsibility to respond correctly to what God says. He either will or he won't.

The Bible says that baptism is -

for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38),

to wash away sins (Acts 22:16),

to put us into Christ (Gal 3:27),

plays a part it saving us (1 Pet 3:21)

That's part of what the Bible says about baptism. We as men can choose to either believe it or not.

 

[DHK]

Rom 10:17 says that "...faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Man is a free moral agent and has the responsibility to respond correctly to what God says. He either will or he won't.

The Bible says that baptism is -

for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38),

to wash away sins (Acts 22:16),

to put us into Christ (Gal 3:27),

plays a part it saving us (1 Pet 3:21)

That's part of what the Bible says about baptism. We as men can choose to either believe it or not.

From the Needmore Church of Christ.
Typical brainwashing by the Church of Christ.

They take each one of those verses out of their various contexts and give them a meaning that they are not intended to have. "Rightly dividing the word of truth," is the rule of thumb that Paul has given us.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Rom 10:17 says that "...faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Man is a free moral agent and has the responsibility to respond correctly to what God says. He either will or he won't.

The Bible says that baptism is -

for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38),

to wash away sins (Acts 22:16),

to put us into Christ (Gal 3:27),

plays a part it saving us (1 Pet 3:21)

That's part of what the Bible says about baptism. We as men can choose to either believe it or not.

I choose to believe it. :thumbs:

 

[Matt Black]

As do I:thumbs: (And I'm not CoC; so much for the brainwashing allegation)

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Just dropping by, clicked on this out of interest, read Heavensdad first post and I couldn't help but to respond to it.

Mark 16:16: “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.

Question: What does the verse say brings damnation? Answer: Unbelief.

Why doesn't the verse say "He thats believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes and is not baptized shall be damned."??
The omission of “and is not baptized” in Mark 16:16 is totally logical and necessary. The first phrase (“he who believes and is baptized”) describes man’s complete response necessitated by the preaching of the Gospel: Faith must precede baptism, since obviously one would not submit to baptism if he did not first believe. It is non-essential to ascribe condemnation in the second clause to the individual who is not baptized, since the individual being condemned is the one who does not initially believe. The person who refuses to believe “is condemned already” (John 3:18) and certainly would not be interested in the next item of compliance—baptism. He who does not believe would obviously not be baptized—and even if he would, his failure to first believe disqualifies him from being immersed. Only penitent believers are candidates for baptism. An exact grammatical parallel would be: “He who goes to the store and buys candy will receive $5.00. He who does not go to the store will be grounded.” Obviously, if the child refuses to go to the store, he would not be in a position to buy candy, and it would be redundant—even grammatically inappropriate—to include the failure to purchase the candy in the pronouncement of an impending punishment.

#1 Jesus told the repentant thief, “Today shall you be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). The thief was saved without baptism.

When we “handle aright the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15), we see that the thief was not subject to the New Testament command of immersion because this command was not given until after the thief’s death. It was not until Christ was resurrected that He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16). It was not until Christ’s death that the Old Testament ceased, signified by the tearing of the temple curtain (Matthew 27:51). When Jesus died, He took away the Old Testament, “nailing it to the cross” (Colossians 2:14).

The word “testament” means “covenant” or “will.” The last will and testament of Christ is the New Testament, which consists of those teachings that apply to people after the death of Christ. If we expect to receive the benefits of the New Testament (salvation, forgiveness of sin, eternal life), we must submit to the terms of the will for which Christ is mediator (Hebrews 9:15), for “where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator; for a testament is of force after men are dead; otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator lives” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

So prior to the Lord’s death and the sealing of the New Testament, New Testament baptism for the forgiveness of sins was not a requirement for those who sought to be acceptable to God. People now, however, live during the Christian era of religious history. Prior to Christ’s death, there were no Christians (Acts 11:26). For a person to reject water baptism as a prerequisite to salvation on the basis of what the thief did or did not do, is comparable to Abraham seeking salvation by building an ark—because that’s what Noah did to please God. It would be like the rich young ruler (Matthew 19) refusing Christ’s directive to sell all his possessions—because wealthy King David did not have to sell his possessions in order to please God.

The thief on the cross could not have been baptized the way the new covenant stipulates you and I must be baptized. Why? Romans 6:3-4 teaches that if we wish to acquire “newness of life,” we must be baptized into Christ’s death, be buried with Christ in baptism, and then be raised from the dead. There was no way for the thief to comply with this New Testament baptism—Christ had not died! Christ had not been buried! Christ had not been raised! In fact, none of God’s ordained teachings pertaining to salvation in Christ (2 Timothy 2:10) and in His body the Church (Acts 2:47; Ephesians 1:22-23) had been given. The church, which Christ’s shed blood purchased (Acts 20:28), had not been established, and was not set up until weeks later (Acts 2).

We must not look to the thief as an example of salvation. Instead, we must obey “from the heart that form of doctrine” (Romans 6:17)—the form of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection through baptism (Romans 6:3-4). Only then can we be “made free from sin to become the servants of righteousness” (Romans 6:18).


And I will have to respond to the rest of the verses later because my laptop needs to be used by someone else and I don't want to lose this post so far.
Good day.

 

[Darron Steele]

This post of mine got buried under a whole bunch of unrelated posts on "Tradition."

...
Scripture has no contradictions. At 1 Peter 3:21, Peter just has to be allowed to finish his sentence. People like to rudely cut him off in the middle and make him appear to be saying something he is not. Let him finish: "--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (NASB). He was clear that it was not the bath, but what it represents: "an appeal to God for a good conscience."

As for Acts 2:38, the 1769 KJV really botched that one. In Portuguese translations, it is handled rightly; for example: “Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados” (VRA). We repent for remission of sins; baptism is obligated from such repentance. Acts 2:38 is simply Peter obeying Jesus Christ at Luke 24:47 that "repentance for| remission of sins should be preached" (NASB|ASV).

Neither verse you teaches the likes of `everyone that believeth on him, except those who never get baptized, receives remission of sins.' Acts 10:43 says what it means and means what it says: “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).

Other verses have been brought up. Acts 22:16 has been brought up:

the 1560 English Geneva Bible in its 1602 revision: "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sinnes, in calling on the Name of the Lord" (GenB).

the 1568 English Bishops’ Bible: “aryse, & be baptized, & wasshe away thy sinnes, in calling on the name of the Lorde” (BishB).​

We wash away our sins by calling on the name of the Lord -- not by water baptism. Romans 10:13 has “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” (ESV).

I am not going to go over all of the baptism passages misused to teach that only the baptized will be saved. Those passages, when translated precisely, and understood as they would have been by their original audiences, would not have been understood as denying that all believers will be saved -- baptized or not.

Acts 10:43 says "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV). To claim `everyone that believeth on him, except those who never get baptized, receives remission of sins' means `not everyone that believeth on him receives remission of sins.'

It cannot be that Acts 10:43 "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV) is true, and `not everyone that believeth on him receives remission of sins' is also true. This would posit that a statement and its direct negation are simultaneously true. That would be a direct contradiction.

Only one statement can be true. That is Acts 10:43 "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Response to Mark 16:16 and the Theif on the cross can be found a few posts up.

#3 Paul separates baptism from the gospel, saying, “Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17). It is the gospel that saves us (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1,2); therefore, baptism is not what saves us.

1 Corinthians 1:17
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

He says that Christ did nto send him to baptize but....

Matthew 28:18-20
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Jesus here commanded the Apostles (and this is implied on all Christians) to 'teach all nations, baptizing them' - so what did Paul mean when he said 'Christ sent me not to baptize'?

Paul’s statements in his letter to the church at Corinth must be taken in their proper context in order to understand their true meaning. In 1 Corinthians 1:10-17, Paul was dealing with the division that was plaguing the Corinthian Christians. He had heard of the controversy in Corinth, and begged them to stand united, and resolve their differences (1 Corinthians 1:10-17).

Later, Paul added in 1 Corinthians 3:3-7
"For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase"

When a person reads 1 Corinthians 1:14-17 in view of the problem of division in Corinth that Paul was addressing in chapter one and throughout this letter, he or she has a better understanding of Paul’s statements regarding baptism. He was not indicating that baptism was unnecessary, but that people should not glory in the one who baptizes them. Some of the Corinthians were putting more emphasis on who baptized them, than on the one body of Christ to which a person is added when he or she is baptized (cf. Acts 2:41,47; Ephesians 4:4). Paul was thankful that he did not personally baptize any more Corinthians than he did, lest they boast in his name, rather than in the name of Christ (1:15).
Paul understood that the fewer people he personally baptized, the less likely they were to rejoice in his name. In 1 Corinthians 1:13, Paul implied that the only way to be saved is to be baptized into the name of Christ, saying, “Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” Paul’s desire was for converts to tie themselves to the Savior, and not to himself. He knew that “there is salvation in no one else” but Jesus; “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Paul concerned himself with preaching, and, like Jesus, left others to do the baptizing.

When Paul stated: “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel,” he meant that preaching was his main work, and that others could immerse the converts. He did not mean by this statement that baptism is unimportant, but that the baptizer is inconsequential. Consider this: If Paul did not baptize, but preached, and, if others baptized those who heard Paul’s teachings, what can we infer about the content of Paul’s teachings? The truth is, at some point, he must have instructed the unsaved to be baptized (which is exactly what occurred in Corinth—read Acts 18:1-11; 1 Corinthians 6:11). Similar to how we logically infer from the Ethiopian eunuch’s baptism (Acts 8:36-39), that when Philip “preached Jesus to him” (8:35), he informed the eunuch of the essentiality of baptism, we can truthfully affirm that Paul taught that baptism is essential for salvation. The allegation that Paul ever considered baptism non-essential, simply is unfounded.

#4 Acts 2:38: “Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

To properly understand Peter’s meaning, we must consider the phrase “for the remission of sins” in light of its usage, its context, and the rest of Scripture.

The word “for” (eis) can mean either “with a view to” or “because of.” In the latter case, a person would be baptized because he had been saved, not in order to be saved.

This is an incredibly misunderstood subject.
The English word “for” has, as one of its meanings, “because of.” However, the Greek preposition eis that underlies the English word “for” never has a causal function. It always has its primary, basic, accusative thrust: unto, into, to, toward.
We must not go to the text, decide what we think it means, and assign a grammatical meaning that coincides with our preconceived understanding. We must begin with the grammar and seek to understand every text in light of the normal, natural, common meaning of the grammatical and lexical construction.
The exact same grammatical construction of Acts 2:38 is found in Matthew 26:28—“into the remission of sins” (eis aphesin hamartion). Jesus’ blood, the blood of the covenant, was undeniably shed for many “in order to acquire remission of sins.” You would not say "eis" means "because of" in Matthew 26:28 because then the verse would be read as "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many because of the remission of sins." - This is just rediculous to consider!
In Matthew 26:28 and Acts 2:38 the word "eis" has the natural and normal meaning of the Greek preposition—toward, in the direction of.
Had the Holy Spirit intended to say that baptism is “because of” or “on account of” past forgiveness, He would have used the Greek preposition that conveys that very idea: dia with the accusative.

Similarly, in Acts 2:38, if repentance is not “because of” remission of sins, neither is baptism. Regardless of person and number considerations, Peter told his hearers to do both things. The act of baptism (connected to the act of repentance by the coordinate conjunction) cannot be extricated from the context of remission of sins by any stretch.

People are saved by receiving (not rejecting) God’s Word, and Peter’s audience “gladly received his word” before they were baptized (Acts 2:41).

Verse 44 speaks of “all that believed” as constituting the early church, not all who were baptized.

What was "his word" that they "gladly recieved"?
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

by "recieving his word" they repented and were baptized!
Acts 2:41
"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
Note that after they were baptized "they were added unto them[church]"

Those who believed Peter’s message clearly received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Peter said, “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?” (Acts 10:47).

This is a direct reference to Holy Spirit baptism (Peter describing the experience of the Gentiles in Acts 10) Referring to their empowerment to speak in tongues, Peter explicitly identified it as being comparable to the experience of the apostles in Acts 2. Note his explanation: “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us [apostles] at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit. If then God gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us [apostles]…” (Acts 11:15-17). Peter unmistakably linked the baptism of the Holy Spirit predicted by John in Matthew 3:11, and applied by Jesus to the apostles in Acts 1:5, with the unique and exclusive bestowal of the same on the first Gentile candidates of salvation. Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a unique and infrequent occurrence that came directly from deity and is seperate from water baptism for the remission of sins.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

#5 Jesus referred to His baptism as a work of righteousness (Matthew 3:15). But the Bible declares clearly that salvation is “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).

The baptism to which Jesus submitted Himself was John’s baptism (Matthew 3:13; Mark 1:9). John’s baptism was for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3). This truth is particularly evident from the fact that when Jesus presented Himself to John for baptism, John sought to deter Him, noting that, if anything, Jesus needed to baptize John (Matthew 3:14). Jesus did not correct John, as many seek to do today, by falsely arguing that baptism is not for remission of sins. Rather, Jesus, in effect
Jesus’ baptism was unique and not to be compared to anyone else’s baptism. Jesus’ baptism had the unique purpose of “fulfilling all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). In other words, it was necessary for Jesus to submit to John’s baptism (1) to show His contemporaries that no one is exempt from submitting to God’s will and (2) more specifically, Christ’s baptism was God’s appointed means of pinpointing for the world the precise identity of His Son. It was not until John saw the Spirit of God descending on Jesus and heard the voice (“This is My Son...”) that he knew that “this is the Son of God” (John 1:31-34; Matthew 3:16-17).

Of course, John’s baptism is no longer valid (Acts 18:24-19:5). John’s baptism paralleled New Testament baptism in the sense that both were for the forgiveness of sins. But John’s baptism was transitional in nature, preparing Jews for their Messiah. Baptism after the cross is for all people (Matthew 28:19), in Jesus’ name (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 19:5), into His death (Romans 6:3), in order to be clothed with Him (Galatians 3:27), and added to His church (Acts 2:47; 1 Corinthians 12:13). We must not use Jesus’ baptism to suggest that salvation occurs prior to baptism.

#6 Not once in the entire Gospel of John, written explicitly so that people could believe and be saved (John 20:31), is baptism noted as a condition of salvation. Rather, this Gospel instructs people to “believe” to be saved (John 3:16,18,36).

John 3:5

But Jesus does not say in Mark 16:16, or anywhere in Scripture, “He that is not baptized shall be damned,” but instead states emphatically “he that believes not is condemned already” (John 3:18).

Its logical that since baptism comes after belief and belief is required to continue on to baptism and salvation that those who do not do step 1 (believe) "is condemned already".

 

[DHK]

1 Corinthians 1:17
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

Good verse.

1 Corinthians 1:17-18 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Paul differentiates between baptism and the gospel. Paul states that baptism is not part of the gospel when he says that God has not sent him to baptize, but rather to preach the gospel. In the light of the gospel, baptism isn't even important. Paul was not commanded to baptize. He was commanded to preach the gospel. The message is so clear, it cannot be missed. Baptism in no way can be considered a part of the gospel; it one claims that it is, he is calling Paul a liar, a deceiver and a fraud. For Paul was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel. You cannot have it both ways.

What is the gospel. Paul also will define that for you:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

And here is the gospel by which ye are saved:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

There is no baptism in the gospel.
If baptism is in the gospel as you declare then the gospel is a gospel of works and not of grace. That is a false gospel.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Baptism is a work. Man does it. Man receives it. It is all of man. It is man's work. Even if it is commanded of God, it is still a work of man. Therefore it is not of grace. As long as one believes that baptism is a requirement for salvation they deny that salvation is by grace.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[TCGreek]

Yes, baptism is clearly not the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:17 should be memorized and cherished.

Thank you, apostle Paul.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Good verse.

1 Corinthians 1:17-18 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Paul differentiates between baptism and the gospel. Paul states that baptism is not part of the gospel when he says that God has not sent him to baptize, but rather to preach the gospel. In the light of the gospel, baptism isn't even important. Paul was not commanded to baptize. He was commanded to preach the gospel. The message is so clear, it cannot be missed. Baptism in no way can be considered a part of the gospel; it one claims that it is, he is calling Paul a liar, a deceiver and a fraud. For Paul was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel. You cannot have it both ways.

What is the gospel. Paul also will define that for you:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

And here is the gospel by which ye are saved:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

There is no baptism in the gospel.
If baptism is in the gospel as you declare then the gospel is a gospel of works and not of grace. That is a false gospel.

When Paul stated: “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel,” he meant that preaching was his main work, and that others could immerse the converts. He did not mean by this statement that baptism is unimportant, but that the baptizer is inconsequential. Consider this: If Paul did not baptize, but preached, and, if others baptized those who heard Paul’s teachings, what can we infer about the content of Paul’s teachings? The truth is, at some point, he must have instructed the unsaved to be baptized (which is exactly what occurred in Corinth—read Acts 18:1-11; 1 Corinthians 6:11). Similar to how we logically infer from the Ethiopian eunuch’s baptism (Acts 8:36-39), that when Philip “preached Jesus to him” (8:35), he informed the eunuch of the essentiality of baptism, we can truthfully affirm that Paul taught that baptism is essential for salvation. The allegation that Paul ever considered baptism non-essential, simply is unfounded

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Baptism is a work. Man does it. Man receives it. It is all of man. It is man's work. Even if it is commanded of God, it is still a work of man. Therefore it is not of grace. As long as one believes that baptism is a requirement for salvation they deny that salvation is by grace.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Grace is what saves us - but through baptism we recieve that grace.
Nowhere does the Bible place baptism as a work, it is an act of obedience towards God.

 

[BTM]

Belief is descibed as a work.

John 6:28-29

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, Ths is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Salvation apart from works, huh? The works that are ineffectual regarding salvation are works of the Law, and works of our own righteousness. Works of obedience are required. Obedience is faith working through love.

 

[DHK]

When Paul stated: “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel,” he meant that preaching was his main work, and that others could immerse the converts. He did not mean by this statement that baptism is unimportant, but that the baptizer is inconsequential. Consider this: If Paul did not baptize, but preached, and, if others baptized those who heard Paul’s teachings, what can we infer about the content of Paul’s teachings? The truth is, at some point, he must have instructed the unsaved to be baptized (which is exactly what occurred in Corinth—read Acts 18:1-11; 1 Corinthians 6:11). Similar to how we logically infer from the Ethiopian eunuch’s baptism (Acts 8:36-39), that when Philip “preached Jesus to him” (8:35), he informed the eunuch of the essentiality of baptism, we can truthfully affirm that Paul taught that baptism is essential for salvation. The allegation that Paul ever considered baptism non-essential, simply is unfounded

So far so good, as long as what you have written is what you mean.
Salvation is essential, but not to salvation.
Paul did instruct about baptism, but not in reference to salvation.
The instruction that Paul gave about baptism (Rom.6:3,4) was for believers, after salvation, as a symbolic picture of their death to sin and rising again to a new life in Christ--nothing to do with salvation. From Paul's writings you cannot get anything that even implies that baptism has anything to do with salvation.
He clearly says that Christ sent him to preach the gospel not to baptized.
Therefore all those that were saved under his ministry were saved, without being baptized. They did not have to wait for Apollos to come along and baptize them in order to be saved. In the Corinthian church the majority of those that were baptized were baptized by Apollos, even though Paul may have won them to the Lord. Paul was not commissioned to baptize but to preach the gospel.
Does the gospel save: yes or no?
Did they get saved under the preaching of Paul? Yes or no?

Grace is what saves us - but through baptism we recieve that grace.
Nowhere does the Bible place baptism as a work, it is an act of obedience towards God.

There is no grace in baptism. Hindus believe that. Are you a Hindu? Hindus believe that the grace they receive by plunging themselves in the "holy" waters of the Ganges River will wash away their sins. Apparently you believe the same superstition. There is no grace in baptism. Baptism will get you wet. The true Bible-believer does not believe in superstitions. Water cannot save. Even Jeremiah mocks such an idea:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

If you need a bath, take one. But don't expect it to wash away your sins.

 

[DHK]

Belief is descibed as a work.

John 6:28-29

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, Ths is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Salvation apart from works, huh? The works that are ineffectual regarding salvation are works of the Law, and works of our own righteousness. Works of obedience are required. Obedience is faith working through love.

Jesus was making a play on words.
The question asked was: What shall we do?
The truth is you can't do anything; Jesus paid it all. If Jesus didn't pay the full penalty for your sin, then your salvation is no salvation at all. You need to be concerned; for what you have is fraudulent. The only salvation that can get you to heaven is the salvation that Jesus offers. Jesus offers salvation where he paid the full penalty of sin paid by him on the cross with his blood. No person can help merit salvation. He said "It is finished," and when he said that he meant it. The work of salvation is finished. There is nothing more to do. Man has no part in it.

For by grace are ye saved through faith.
It is the gift of God, not of works,
Lest any man should boast.

To say that grace comes through baptism is heresy. Grace comes through Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for our sins. He is the only way to heaven. If you say that baptism is the way, you are saying that there is another way besides Christ. That is no different than saying Allah is the way, or Buddah is the way. Only Christ is the way--not baptism, not church, not confirmation, not religion; only Christ and Him alone. Salvation is not of works (of which baptism is).

 

[BTM]

I don't believe anyone has implied that salvation is earned by being baptized. If so, that person would be a liar.

However, if what you say is true, then all men are saved, even if they don't believe. If Christ did ALL that was neccessary to save all men, then all are saved. But of course, we don't believe that, either.

Jesus fininshed HIS work, the work the Father sent Him to do (John 17:4). We still have to obey (Heb 5:8-9).

There are commands under the NT that must be obeyed by man in order for him to be saved. None of these things earns his salvation. None of these is a work of merit, nor of Law. They are simply conditions which must be met in order to receive the remission of sins and enter into the body of Christ, which is the church of Christ (Eph 1:22-23).

These commands are as follows:

Believe - John 3:16, Acts 8:37 and many others
Repent - Acts 2:38, 17:30, others
Confess - Rom 10:9-10, Acts 8:38 (example)
Be Baptized - Acts 2:38, 22:16 (explicit command), 8:36; 16:33 (implied)

Again, let me emphasize, NONE of these things allows man to earn his salvation. NONE of these things is a work of merit or of Law.

It was only after they at Rome obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to them that they were freed from sin and became the servants of righteousness (Rom 6:17-18).

The doctrine that had been delivered of course, was the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They obeyed a form of that doctrine. What might that have been? Whatever it was, obeying it freed them from sin and made them servants of righteousness.

What do you think it was?

 

[DHK]

I don't believe anyone has implied that salvation is earned by being baptized. If so, that person would be a liar.

Then that person is you. Here is what you said in post #162

The Bible says that baptism ....
plays a part it saving us

That is heresy. That is the same as saying that salvation is earned; earned by baptism. It has no other meaning. You are saying that Christ cannot pay for our sins by himself. You have to help him along by being baptized. His blood was not sufficient to take away your sins. Your help is needed. Your salvation is by works. You trust in your baptism; not in Christ alone.

However, if what you say is true, then all men are saved, even if they don't believe. If Christ did ALL that was neccessary to save all men, then all are saved. But of course, we don't believe that, either.

Christ provided salvation for all men. See John 3:16. Salvation is by faith alone. There are no works involved. Baptism is a work.

Jesus fininshed HIS work, the work the Father sent Him to do (John 17:4). We still have to obey (Heb 5:8-9).

Wrong again. We must believe. "Obey" implies works, doing something. Salvation is by faith not of works. See Eph.2:8,9; Rom.11:6

There are commands under the NT that must be obeyed by man in order for him to be saved.

The only command in the Bible to be saved is to believe. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Salvation is by faith.

None of these things earns his salvation. None of these is a work of merit, nor of Law. They are simply conditions which must be met in order to receive the remission of sins and enter into the body of Christ, which is the church of Christ (Eph 1:22-23).

Salvation is unconditional. Your conditions are works. Therefore you have a works based salvation which is another gospel (see Gal.1:8). The condition of baptism (a work) makes it another gospel. Salvation is not of works.

These commands are as follows:

Believe - John 3:16, Acts 8:37 and many others
Repent - Acts 2:38, 17:30, others
Confess - Rom 10:9-10, Acts 8:38 (example)
Be Baptized - Acts 2:38, 22:16 (explicit command), 8:36; 16:33 (implied)

So say you; but not the Scripture. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Faith alone saves.

Again, let me emphasize, NONE of these things allows man to earn his salvation. NONE of these things is a work of merit or of Law.

It is evident that you believe you earn your salvation by your baptism which is a work. I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved. Are you going to tell me that I wasn't saved for those two years??

It was only after they at Rome obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to them that they were freed from sin and became the servants of righteousness (Rom 6:17-18).

That passage is not even speaking of salvation. You are taking Scripture out of context, not rightly dividing the word of truth.

The doctrine that had been delivered of course, was the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And that doctrine, quoted in 1Cor.15:1-4 makes no mention at all of baptism; therefore your doctrine is heretical.

They obeyed a form of that doctrine. What might that have been? Whatever it was, obeying it freed them from sin and made them servants of righteousness.

You are taking Scripture out of context again.

What do you think it was?

What do I think what is?
I think that baptism, as a requirement of baptism is a damnable heresy (a term the Bible uses), that sends people to hell.

 

[Don]

Peter tells us that baptism is like the Flood. Noah and his family were saved from the water, by being shut into the ark by God Himself. Then the water came down and washed the rest away.

In other words, water was used to destroy.

The baptism that we speak of now, "destroys" the old nature. It is not what saves us.

Upon our salvation, we are "shut into Jesus." The water that we then are submerged into represents washing away the rest.

Noah was saved by the ark, wherein he and his family did not drown; we are saved by our belief, and the finished work of Jesus. We are baptized to show obedience and our symbolic likeness with the putting away of the old self, and gaining a clear conscience.

Water does not save; it destroys. If it were true that the water imparted the grace, then one could liken the coming fire (at the Second Coming) as being the same, and that we would be saved by fire.

I doubt I'll see anyone being baptized in a furnace.

 

[BTM]

Thanks for the misquote from post 162. You're the king, baby. I did not say that baptism earns salvation. I (and the Bible) say that baptism plays a part in salvation.

Christ provided salvation for all men. See John 3:16. Salvation is by faith alone. There are no works involved. Baptism is a work.

$100 for you if you can show me where the Bible calls baptism a work.

Wrong again. We must believe. "Obey" implies works, doing something. Salvation is by faith not of works. See Eph.2:8,9; Rom.11:6

Well, I guess the writer of Hebrews got it wrong too, then

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The only command in the Bible to be saved is to believe. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Salvation is by faith.

Wrong again.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Have you not read this?

You have to be careful not to read "only" every time you read the word "faith". It'll confuse you.

Salvation is unconditional.

Then all are saved whether they believe or not. Whether they repent of sins or not. I guess we can all go do whatever we want, since salvation is unconditional. DHK said so.

It is evident that you believe you earn your salvation by your baptism which is a work. I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved. Are you going to tell me that I wasn't saved for those two years??

Do you want me to tell you that?

That passage is not even speaking of salvation. You are taking Scripture out of context, not rightly dividing the word of truth.

And that doctrine, quoted in 1Cor.15:1-4 makes no mention at all of baptism; therefore your doctrine is heretical.

You are taking Scripture out of context again.

No, I'm not. Here's the text.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

They started out as the servants of sin, and they ended up as the servants of righteousness. Somewhere between sin and righteousness they obeyed a form of the doctrine that had been delivered to them, the gospel. What is a form of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

You won't answer that, so allow me. Baptism is a form of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

It was when they were baptized that they were made free from sin (baptized for the remission of sins).

I think that baptism, as a requirement of baptism is a damnable heresy (a term the Bible uses), that sends people to hell.

Are you saying that I'm going to hell because I teach that baptism is required for salvation?

 

[DHK]

Thanks for the misquote from post 162. You're the king, baby. I did not say that baptism earns salvation. I (and the Bible) say that baptism plays a part in salvation.

The Bible does not say that. Only you do. As you said: "I say that baptism plays a part in salvation." That is heresy. What that means is that the blood of Jesus was not sufficient enough to pay the penalty for your sin. You tell Christ that his death on the cross was all in vain, because you had to be baptized in order to pay for your own sins. When he said "It is finished," it was a lie. It wasn't finished (according to you), because you had to be baptized. It is the greatest of insults to Christ to say that baptism is required for salvation or plays a part in salvation.
Eph. 2:9 puts it aptly "lest any man should boast."

So when you get to heaven, you will dance before Jesus and say: "Look what I did! Look What I did! Jesus didn't pay it all; I paid part of it too! I paid part of the price through my baptism! What shameful heresy. Not of works lest any man should boast!

$100 for you if you can show me where the Bible calls baptism a work.

Words have meaning.
1. Theology (a word you won't find in the Bible; do you believe in it?) is made up of two parts: ology--the study of, and theo--God. Its meaning therefore is the study of God.
2. Work--the act of doing
3. Baptizing--the act of immersing; the work of dipping someone or something into water.
--It is therefore a work.
The word baptidzo is used in Mark when the Pharisees "dipped" or washed their cups and utensils into water. Was that work or grace? It is the same word.
One man does the work of baptizing another man into water. It is a work; a work of man. Does God do the baptizing? No! It is a work of man. It is all of man. It may be done in obedience to God, just as witnessing is, but it still is a work of man. It is a work.

Well, I guess the writer of Hebrews got it wrong too, then

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You ignore the Scripture I gave you (Eph.2:8,9) and like any other cult, just jump to another Scripture.
No the author of Hebrews did not get it wrong.
Christ didn't need to get saved. Is that what you are implying??
Yes Christ became the author of eternal salvation--through his death on the cross. The word obey simply means obey the gospel which does not include baptism. If it did every convert that Paul ever made would not be saved, for the Lord did not send Paul to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

Furthermore you may want to cross-reference what it is we are to obey:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
--The gospel never included baptism; it wasn't a gospel of works.

Wrong again.

Here is what I said:
"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Salvation is by faith."
--I quote Scripture and you say I am wrong! You don't believe the Bible??

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Have you not read this?

You have to be careful not to read "only" every time you read the word "faith". It'll confuse you.

Note that it does not say: he that believes not and is baptized not shall be damned. Unbelief and only unbelief condemns one to hell. Likewise faith and only faith gets one to heaven.

Then all are saved whether they believe or not. Whether they repent of sins or not. I guess we can all go do whatever we want, since salvation is unconditional. DHK said so.

Salvation is unconditional because the Bible says so. Many times (Rom.6:23; Eph.2:8,9), does it say that salvation is the gift of God. It is a gift. A gift has no conditions attached. If it did it would not be a gift. There are no conditions attached to salvation; God is not a liar. He paid the price for the gift himself--the full price with his own blood. There is nothing more that we can do but accept it by faith. It is a gift to be received by faith. We can't do anything but receive it. Jesus paid it all. No conditions attached. If you imply or say universalism then that is a heresy you believe in, not I.

Do you want me to tell you that?

Yes I do. I was saved, trusted Christ as my Saviour, and then was not baptized for two years after that. Was I saved (according to your theology) in those intervening years. If I had died in a car accident would I have gone to heaven.
That is the first question I want you to answer.

Here is the next question.
Suppose that the Apostle Paul had died after he met the Lord, but before he met Annanias. Would he have gone to heaven? Would he have been saved?

No, I'm not. Here's the text.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

There is nothing in Romans chapter six that talks of salvation--nothing!
Look at the first verse:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
--Paul uses the first person plural and includes himself as he writes this chapter. He is writing to Christians. He is speaking of the Christian life. He is writing about victorious Christian living. There is nothing about baptism or salvation even mentioned in these verses.

They started out as the servants of sin, and they ended up as the servants of righteousness. Somewhere between sin and righteousness they obeyed a form of the doctrine that had been delivered to them, the gospel. What is a form of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

You are taking these verses out of context and trying to make them mean something that they do not mean. He is speaking to Christians. Any Christian can be a servant of sin. Read on in Romans chapter 7 and Paul tells you how that he was a servant of sin in his Christian life. There is a battle raging, a spiritual battle that every Christian faces.

You won't answer that, so allow me. Baptism is a form of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

The answer is non sequitor because of your complete misunderstanding of the passage. Baptism is not a form of anything. It is a symbolic picture of one's death to his old life of sin, and a symbolic picture of a believer's new life in Christ. It is purely symbolic. The only thing that baptism does for you is that it gets you wet and that is all. Remember that water is simply two atoms of hydrogen to every atom of oxygen. It can't forgive your sins.

It was when they were baptized that they were made free from sin (baptized for the remission of sins).

You did not show that from that passage; nor can you. It is nonsense. Which had the greater power: the hydrogen or the oxygen in remitting your sin? Which water is holier: the water in the Catholic fonts or in the Ganges River? Your doctrine is foolishness and superstitious. It also takes away from the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

Are you saying that I'm going to hell because I teach that baptism is required for salvation?

Jesus said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--Jesus said that he is the only way to heaven; there is no other way.
If you are trying to trust in Jesus plus your baptism, then yes, your salvation is in great danger.