Is depression sin?

[AVL1984]

Pastor Larry, it's not always a matter of just depending on God or not. But, I know you already know that. I guess some of us just feel a continued need to stress this point because so many people DO MISUNDERSTAND the nature of this illness or the periods of depression that can be caused by other necessary medications to help sustain a near normal life. So, don't take offense at my answer. I've been in deep depressions off and on for many years, and light depressions for several years, but haven't always used medication for same. I'm not ashamed of that fact. I do depend on God, daily. With diabetes (type II) and bilateral Meniere's Disease (a disease of the inner ears with vertigo, ringing and fullness and pressure in the ears) it can make a person literally feel like they are going crazy, and DOES affect the levels in peoples. For years, the latter of the two was misdiagnosed, and I had to jump from job to job to stay working, and for long periods of time was unable to work. Now I'm totally unable to hold a job, am losing my hearing, and still function every day. Presently I am on drugs for depression. No shame in it. I nearly died in October from losing over 2/3 of my blood volume. I spent three days in the hospital receiving six units of blood. They wanted to give me more, and still may have to give me more to help keep me alive. I'll know more on Tuesday. Depression is a common occurance after such. It's not something I asked for, and it does not negate the fact that I still am depending on God.

Well, that's my rant for today! LOL

 

[Pastor Larry]

But the fact is that mental illness does exist and some of it requires medication as part of the treatment. Not all of it and not everyone and not all the time.

I completely agree.

In response to AVL, I think many people do misunderstand the issue, but most of them are on the "medicate it" side. People do not realize the spiritual nature of the issue. WE need to be radically biblical about it to give people real hope.

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


There are medical causes for depression to be sure. But when someone says they have a chemical imbalance, ask them what chemical it is and what tests the doctor ran to figure that out. You will probably find the answers are "I don't know" and "none."

I think we need to take the issue of depression much more seriously than modern medical culture has. We are putting people on drugs with no idea what the long term affects are. It is a dangerous dangerous deal.

From my experience, clinically depressed people don't really care if their antidepressant is a Selective Serotonine Reuptake Inhibitor or a Monoaminise Inhibitor? They want relief. These medications have saved many people's lives. More dangerous than these medications are comments from pastors and relatives and friends that people should turn to God instead of taking medication when IMO they should do both.

 

[Pastor Larry]

From my experience, clinically depressed people don't really care if their antidepressant is a Selective Serotonine Reuptake Inhibitor or a Monoaminise Inhibitor? They want relief.

What they care about is not really the issue. The issue is: Are we offering them real hope, or just consigning them to live in unbiblical thought patterns? Many people don't care about what is best for them. But that doesn't mean something else is better.

These medications have saved many people's lives.

This is the type of statement that is all too typical. It simply cannot be proven. There is little indisputable evidnce that these drugs have actually saved lives, as opposed to handling it a different way. When you think of what people are being taught today and the hopelessness of this world, it is no wonder that they are depressed.

More dangerous than these medications are comments from pastors and relatives and friends that people should turn to God instead of taking medication when IMO they should do both.

We should heavily emphasize the IMO. Many people have been deceived into wrong thinking about this topic because the so called experts say something. In reality, most of these experts do not accept the fact of the sinful state of mankind. When we look at man's true condition, it is a marvelous testimony to the grace of God that we are not all running out and killing ourselves. When you start with a faulty view of human nature, it is very difficult to come to a right conclusion about solving human problems. We need to be radically biblical in order to give real hope.

You say these people want relief. But we need to explore that. What kind of relief do they want? Do they really want a kind of relief that is only temporary, that depends on taking medications for months or years on end? Or do they want real life changing relief that is found in finding a different world view that has actual answers to problems?

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />From my experience, clinically depressed people don't really care if their antidepressant is a Selective Serotonine Reuptake Inhibitor or a Monoaminise Inhibitor? They want relief.

What they care about is not really the issue. The issue is: Are we offering them real hope, or just consigning them to live in unbiblical thought patterns? Many people don't care about what is best for them. But that doesn't mean something else is better.

These medications have saved many people's lives.

This is the type of statement that is all too typical. It simply cannot be proven. There is little indisputable evidnce that these drugs have actually saved lives, as opposed to handling it a different way. When you think of what people are being taught today and the hopelessness of this world, it is no wonder that they are depressed.

More dangerous than these medications are comments from pastors and relatives and friends that people should turn to God instead of taking medication when IMO they should do both.

We should heavily emphasize the IMO. Many people have been deceived into wrong thinking about this topic because the so called experts say something. In reality, most of these experts do not accept the fact of the sinful state of mankind. When we look at man's true condition, it is a marvelous testimony to the grace of God that we are not all running out and killing ourselves. When you start with a faulty view of human nature, it is very difficult to come to a right conclusion about solving human problems. We need to be radically biblical in order to give real hope.

You say these people want relief. But we need to explore that. What kind of relief do they want? Do they really want a kind of relief that is only temporary, that depends on taking medications for months or years on end? Or do they want real life changing relief that is found in finding a different world view that has actual answers to problems? </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that right thinking can make a world of difference. Having counseled numerous depressed people over the years, I have seen these medications facilitate that process of right thinking. Yes, I agree that the Holy Spirit does heal people emotionally. He brings about lasting healing bringing about dramatic changes. Secular approaches alone aren't the entire solution. Secular approaches, e.g., psychotropic medications, can work hand in hand with Spirit-directed Christian counseling, however, to bring about the changes, I think, you are talking about. And, pastor, if you're telling people their doctors need to give them tests to determine if they are clinically depressed or have bi-polar disorder, I'm not sure what tests you are talking about. There are no blood tests for this. If you are suggesting that people need to take a battery of psychological tests and look at ink blots before a physician prescribes medication, that's a little silly. Psychiatry is not that kind of science.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
But the fact is that mental illness does exist and some of it requires medication as part of the treatment. Not all of it and not everyone and not all the time.

Amen, Brother Charles Meadows -- Preach it!

AVL1984: "I do depend on God, daily. With diabetes (type II) and bilateral Meniere's Disease (a disease of the inner ears with vertigo, ringing and fullness and pressure in the ears) it can make a person literally feel like they are going crazy, and DOES affect the levels in peoples."

And you will have to take insulin every day of
your life (as long as the Lord taries) on this
earth. But that is alright.
However, if you have a clinical depresssion and end
up having to take a serotonin enhancer the
remaining days of your life, it is bad?
HELLO REALITY!
Serotonin is a chemical (excuse my lack of
ability to show numberic subscripts):
HOC8H5NCH2CH2NH2. Without this chemical being
used in the transaction brain-cell to brain-cell
the human brain doesn't function properly.
Insulin is a natural occuring-in-the-body
but some people don't have enough to metabolize
the sugars in their body and their brain gets
shut off (when they pass out).
HELLO REALITY - what is the difference between
these two cases?

I see two differences:

1. The diabetes/insulin works throughout the
body BUT the depression/serotonin-inabler case
works only in the mind

2. A perceptional dificulty:
God has said: "Thou shalt not be depressed"
but God has not said:
"Thou shalt metobolize your sugars properly".

Sorry for being sarcastic:

Serotonin-inabler
works throughout the body but the connection
with the intestines and depression is
not known yet.
God never said "Thou shall not be depressed"
and until he says it, i'm going to advise that
of serotonin-inablers help you overcome
depressing and self-destructive thoughts -
go for it. I pray it will help you and God
will bless you as you take your serotonin-inabler
and your Insulin. Amen.

 

[Pastor Larry]

And, pastor, if you're telling people their doctors need to give them tests to determine if they are clinically depressed or have bi-polar disorder, I'm not sure what tests you are talking about.

This is exactly the problem I am pointing out. People talk about chemical imbalances. But we don't know that chemical are out of balance because there is no testing being done. We are letting people essentially diagnose themselves. I don't think we need a battery of psychological tests or ink blots or any such nonsense. I think we need to address it spiritually and find out why people are depressed. What has brought it on and what is contributing to it. Why are we medicating when we don't know what the problem actually is? Yes, drugs can change moods and bring about a change. In fact, that is why people take them. But is that the biblical solution to a spiritual problem?

 

[Pastor Larry]

And don't mistake me as saying that medication is never the answer. I am not saying that.

 

[Aaron]

Ed said:
HELLO REALITY - what is the difference between
these two cases?

All physicians admit that no one knows the causes of depression, and theories are many and varied. But there is no debate surrounding diabetes. They know why there is not enough insulin in the body. All emotions have physiological trademarks. All you have done is point to the physiological signature and called it the cause.

The reality is that no doctor worth his salt will claim to know the cause of depression. It is only assumed to be clinical.

http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030721-000002.html

 

[Phillip]

Aaron, I don't agree 100% that doctors don't know the causes of depression. You are correct in general, but it is better understood than you seem to be implying (but that may be just the way you are presenting your case).

Most anti-depressants supply increases in chemical interactions in the brain that have decreased. Yes, maybe the REAL reason behind this decrease is somewhat misunderstood, but the symptomatic cause of depression is often taken care of through the use of anti-depressants.

Clinical depression and temporary depression are two seperate things. A person can go into a temporary depressant state due to physical circumstances (can't pay the house payment, sheriff is knocking at the door). This is where faith in God does definitely help, but everybody is different and when it comes down to something occuring in ones life that is dramatic, then a certain amount of leeway has to be given.

For example, a Christian should rightly have a certain amount of temporary depression if they loose a loved one and PARTICULARLY if they know that loved one is not saved. If a sibling or parent died that did not know Christ, this would have to be a difficult time for a Christian and could throw them into a temporary depression.

Clinical depression is usually longer term and is typically caused by failure of appropriate transmissions of seratonin and other chemicals in the brain. These can often be corrected with anti-depressants which simply make a person feel "normal" (not high). Appropriate and proper diagnosis of the patient is important, but even temporary depression can be treated with the use of anti-depressants given for a limited period of time.

For those of you who have to take anti-depressants be aware of TWO things:

1. Those who are starting an anti-depressant, especially one that works relatively quickly such as prozac, should be careful that it does not give them a lot of energy before it decreases the state of depression. Suicide has been known to occur because the depressed person became motivated enough to do something about their depressed condition. This is very rare, but should be considered when starting a regimine of anti-depressants. This risk drops quickly and is usually completely void after approximately two weeks, once the medication starts lowering the depression itself.

2. NEVER, EVER cold-turkey stop anti-depressants without discussions with your doctor. They can throw you into an uncontrollable depressant state.

Also, always remember that people with depression should be tested for bi-polar disorder, which can easily be treated by lithium and other drugs.

These are simply chemical imbalances which may or may not be linked to outside stress levels. They are real and they should be dealt with. Practicing Christians typically have less temporary depression than those who are not Christians, but not always. A lot of it depends on the health and chemical properties of each individual. It is NOTHING to be ashamed of, just another medical condition that needs to be treated.

One final note: Anxiety is sometimes wrongly treated as depression. Anti-depressants may not help anxiety at all if depression is not causing the anxiety. These are better treated with specific anti-anxiety medications. Although Valium got a bad rap in the 60's and 70's, it is still one of the best anti-anxiety medications on the market, if controlled and regulated properly by the doctor. The doctor must watch for potential signs of abuse with this, unlike anti-depressants.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
And don't mistake me as saying that medication is never the answer. I am not saying that.

Pastor Larry, I would highly suggest that any pastor worth his salt should advise a person who is depressed to be tested by a medical doctor for bi-polar and other chemical disorders.

Let me be fairly clear about anti-depressants. They normally increase the uptake or seratonin levels in the brain. This does NOT cause any type of "high" or drug related change in personality unless the person is indeed clinically depressed and the uptake of seratonin has decreased for whatever reason.

A patient who is found to be clinically depressed and commits suicide could put a pastor into a high liability risk if they did not advise and follow up helping the patient seek medical guidance from at least a family physician. (I'm not talking about a psychiatrist or counselor, I am talking about a neurologist or at least a general practitioner that can order the appropriate tests for bi-polar disorder, etc.)

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by Phillip:
(I'm not talking about a psychiatrist or counselor, I am talking about a neurologist or at least a general practitioner that can order the appropriate tests for bi-polar disorder, etc.)

-------------------------------
Phillip and Pastor Larry, let me say this one more time, there are no blood tests to determine whether someone is depressed or has bi-polar disorder. If you are concerned about liability, find out who in your state is licensed to diagnose depression and bipolar disorder. In most states licensed psychologists, clinical social workers, and licensed mental health counselors- -in addition to physicians, can do so.

 

[dianetavegia]

Correct PatsFan. The same can be said for Fibromyalgia and I cannot tell you how many Christian women I've met online who have given in to this 'diagnosis' and do nothing, go nowhere...

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Correct PatsFan. The same can be said for Fibromyalgia and I cannot tell you how many Christian women I've met online who have given in to this 'diagnosis' and do nothing, go nowhere...

I don't know too much about Fibromyalgia. I'm a clinical social worker. One of my new clients carries this diagnosis. How is it diagnosed?

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by PatsFan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Phillip:
(I'm not talking about a psychiatrist or counselor, I am talking about a neurologist or at least a general practitioner that can order the appropriate tests for bi-polar disorder, etc.)

-------------------------------
Phillip and Pastor Larry, let me say this one more time, there are no blood tests to determine whether someone is depressed or has bi-polar disorder. If you are concerned about liability, find out who in your state is licensed to diagnose depression and bipolar disorder. In most states licensed psychologists, clinical social workers, and licensed mental health counselors- -in addition to physicians, can do so. </font>[/QUOTE]YES, there IS chemical imbalance testing for bi-polar disorder. Would you like me to provide you with the scientific specifics?

You are more correct about clinical depression, but the bottom line is that anti-depressants will not work on people who do not have it. So, the best way to test for it is to try the medication for a period of time.

I would NOT trust a mental health counselor for many reasons, and I will not go into that here. Go to a doctor. If you THINK you need a psychiatrist, then fine, he can try the anti-depressant medications.

By the way, Diana, my wife has fibromyalgia and there is clinical testing of "trigger-points" and the amount affected to determine the diagnosis. I don't know if you are arguing against fibromyalgia being real and they should look for something else, or that it IS real and they should treat it. The only treatment known for fibromyalgia today is symptomatic, but it can be clinically diagnosessed to the satisfaction of most up-to-date doctors.

I handle liability cases every single day as part of my job and I can certainly tell you that a doctor (MD or OD) is the best way to keep a pastor out of trouble for a missed diagnosis of ANY kind. What the "state" recognizes (department of human services, whatever) has NOTHING to do with what a court will recognize in a civil case. The court will take the advice of an MD ten times faster than that of a "mental health counselor" (who will have almost ZERO training in pharmaceutical therapy.), which will be the issue the plaintiff's attorney will review FIRST.

If you have experience in civil liability, then we can discuss it on that level. Otherwise, this is what we recommend pastors in churches and it has served them well as a liability prevention.

You seem to want to underplay liability, when it is soon going to become one of the biggest issues the church will have to deal with in the next decade. (Correct me if I am misreading your post.)

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by PatsFan:
I don't know too much about Fibromyalgia. I'm a clinical social worker. One of my new clients carries this diagnosis. How is it diagnosed?

Pretty much by poking. If a woman complains of aches, pains and loss of energy and the doctor can poke her in 5 areas that are tender..... There are NO blood tests and it's termed a 'condition' or 'syndrome' but women claim it as a disease.

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by Phillip:

YES, there IS chemical imbalance testing for bi-polar disorder. Would you like me to provide you with the scientific specifics?[/QB][/QUOTE]
_________________________

I would definitely like to hear all about it. It seems like I would have heard something about these tests in the past 23 years I have been practicing psychotherapy. I wonder why the dozens of psychiatrists I have worked with over the years have never ordered such tests. Fill me in.

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PatsFan:
I don't know too much about Fibromyalgia. I'm a clinical social worker. One of my new clients carries this diagnosis. How is it diagnosed?

Pretty much by poking. If a woman complains of aches, pains and loss of energy and the doctor can poke her in 5 areas that are tender..... There are NO blood tests and it's termed a 'condition' or 'syndrome' but women claim it as a disease. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks. That's helpful. My client is a 25 year old male heroin addict with Fibromyalgia

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Phillip:
Pastor Larry, I would highly suggest that any pastor worth his salt should advise a person who is depressed to be tested by a medical doctor for bi-polar and other chemical disorders.

The first homework assignment for any counselee for "mental issues" is a complete physical workup. But if that comes back negative (or normal) then we know that the problem is spiritual and we deal with it on that level.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Phillip and Pastor Larry, let me say this one more time, there are no blood tests to determine whether someone is depressed or has bi-polar disorder.

That may or may not be true. But that is exactly the problem. "Psychotherapists" (whatever exactly that is) are guessing. These issues are related to sin issues, even when they are physical. There is also a great assumption about cause and effect, which is way too deep to get into here. Suffice to say that someone not trained in theology is not equipped to handle issues like this.

If you are concerned about liability,

Most church insurance contracts cover liability.