Is depression sin?

[Pastor Larry]

Philip keeps trying to act like I have said that all depression is always sinful. He says

The argument that I am having with pastor Larry is that (although he says I'm not reading his posts), it is very clear that he believes depression is sin and can be corrected without anti-depressants. Since there is no specific medical test for depression to date, he assumes that there is no physical cause.

I have repeatedly asked him to read closely to see what I did say and now, to save him the time and trouble, I have gone through this thread and put together a few excerpts to see what I actually said. I hope this will once for all put to rest the idea that Phillip has about what I have said and I hope that it will cause him to read more closely and carefully. He and disagree on how to handle this issue. But there is no need to misrepresent my position.

Here is what I said.

January 27, 2005 08:59 AM
There are medical causes for depression to be sure. (This was in my very first post on this topic, so I clarified from the beginning what I believed.)

January 29, 2005 02:14 PM
And don't mistake me as saying that medication is never the answer. I am not saying that.

January 29, 2005 07:49 PM
You must first determine that it is not medical in nature by having a complete physical check up with a doctor.

January 29, 2005 09:41 PM
Many times, clinical depression is the result of spiritual issues and I know that first hand. One can very easily cure much clinical depression by ceasing to sin and by practicing righteousness. (I italicized the word "much" in hopes that you won't miss it and accuse me of saying "all.")

January 29, 2005 09:41 PM
I have already clarified (on the first page as well as many other places on this forum) that depression that is truly physical in nature should be treated as such.

January 29, 2005 09:41 PM
I have said that depression sometimes has physical/medical causes and should be treated that way.

January 31, 2005 08:48 AM
It is absolutely foolish to suggest that all "clinical depression" should be treated as medical. There is no reason to say that. Some may be ... but certainly not all.

January 31, 2005 10:47 AM
The medical end of things needs to be addressed. There is no doubt about that.

January 31, 2005 12:35 PM
Sometimes, there are medical reasons for it and we should address those medically.

January 31, 2005 02:22 PM
I have already said that physical/medical issues should be treated like physical/medical issues. I don't know how to make that any plainer.

 

[Pastor Larry]

LEt's see if we can make some headway here in a differen direction.

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

Depression is always the result of reality not meeting expectations.

 

[Phillip]

Disagree

I would agree with
"Mild or temporary depression is sometimes the result of reality not meeting expections."

I would NOT agree that clinical depression is.

I don't think you could go as far as saying "always" in any physiological situation.

 

[Phillip]

Pastor Larry, you can quote all the individual statements you want, but you leave the strong contextual impression that if a physiological problem is not indicated by a clinical test then the depression is related to sin. Just as we were talking about testing, there is NO test for clinical depression. It is my opinion there IS testing available for bipolar, which definitely needs treatment, too.

But, just because there is no way to measure clinical depression, your method throws out those cases under your pervue and not under that of the health care professional. THIS is where I disagree.

You have constantly "put down" professionals who work in the areas of mental health as not knowing what they are doing, that as a pastor you understand mental health better than they.

You also disagreed with me when I said "spiritual healing should be indicated for all illnesses". This is incorrect. Spiritual healing should be used along-side of all possible medical choices. God gives us a brain to discover and use medications and has blessed us with many drugs that has saved many lives. He has also blessed us with the brains to make drugs which make ill people comfortable.

You made rash statements against antidepressants by saying they have side effects we do not know about. Well, the same can be said for any medication, for any illness.

You keep saying that I do not read what you say, but in context you say things, while leaving yourself an "out" with a sentence. This is okay, but it is not really effective debating.

It means that you can come back and say you didn't say something, while all along you have implied that depression comes from sin and anti-depressants should not be used because spiritual counseling can cure depression.

Spiritual healing can cure ANYTHING, but does always do so. All illness is a result of sin, but not usually the sin of the person with the illness. It is due to damage that has occurred to our bodies that were meant to live forever. I HAVE seen cancer healed through spiritual intervention. But, to imply that depression itself is a spiritual matter, only, is burying your head in the sand and now allowing for the medical profession to make adjustments to the ailing body.

Let me give you an example. Someone has migraine headaches. The doctors have done MRI, CT, X-ray, everything, can't find a physiological problem. Just because the physiological problem has not been found does this indicate that it is not physiological or does it indicate that we do not have methods to test for every single cause of migraines?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Phillip:
Pastor Larry, you can quote all the individual statements you want, but you leave the strong contextual impression that if a physiological problem is not indicated by a clinical test then the depression is related to sin.

You yourself earlier siad that all depression was related to sin, as I remember. I happen to agree. I don't think all depression is necessarily sin, nor directly related to sin. I think most of it is. ("Most" means "not all" so don't resort to your old accusations.) But those "individual statements" are in context to clarify against the very conclusion you drew. I know that my words could have been interpreted as you interpreted them. For that very reason, I added the clarification so that you would have no grounds for the false representations you made about my statements.

But, just because there is no way to measure clinical depression, your method throws out those cases under your pervue and not under that of the health care professional. THIS is where I disagree.

I don't think I have done that at all.

You have constantly "put down" professionals who work in the areas of mental health as not knowing what they are doing, that as a pastor you understand mental health better than they.

I have said that if they do not study theology and the affects of sin on the life, they are not qualified to treat these kinds of issues. They can at best, relieve external symptons.

You also disagreed with me when I said "spiritual healing should be indicated for all illnesses".

My disagreement was of a different nature. My point here is that we don't sit back and simply pray that a broken leg would be healed. We go to the doctor for the body. Nor should we sit back and pray that a spiritual matter would be healed. We go to a doctor for the soul--a well trained theologian.

You made rash statements against antidepressants by saying they have side effects we do not know about. Well, the same can be said for any medication, for any illness.

How is that rash? You just agreed with me. It is certainly true. These drugs have side affects and in many cases we don't not know the long term affects of them.

You keep saying that I do not read what you say, but in context you say things, while leaving yourself an "out" with a sentence.

The "out" is specifically placed there to guard against the kind of unfounded assumptions and gross generalizations that people make. You have done it way too often.

while all along you have implied that depression comes from sin and anti-depressants should not be used because spiritual counseling can cure depression.

I specifically answered that from my first post on.

But, to imply that depression itself is a spiritual matter, only, is burying your head in the sand and now allowing for the medical profession to make adjustments to the ailing body.

I have not implied any such thing. When the body is ailing, the doctor should address that.

However, it is undeniable that sinful life choices bring on the same symptons that DSMIV lists for clinical depression. A life filled with sinful life choices can well be expected to meet with the qualifications and the extended time frames listed in DSMIV. You should know that, if you know sinfulness and the human heart. The psychologist will not address the real reason. He has not been trained in that and does not accept the real reason. He will prescribe something to address symptoms, not causes.

The drugs often offered address no known chemical deficiency in people. In other words, they are not addressing known causes. They relieve depressive symptoms. That has been my point all along: Are we actually addressing real issues? Or just offering beer to the mourning (Prov 31:6)?

The fact that someone feels temporarily better after drinking a couple of beers doesn't mean that the person suffered from beer deficiency. The beer merely relieved the symptoms, rather than addressing hte problems. There is no evidence that these psychotropic drugs work any differently (except they aren't intoxicating). They relieve symptoms.

Just because the physiological problem has not been found does this indicate that it is not physiological or does it indicate that we do not have methods to test for every single cause of migraines?

It could indicate either. Which again emphasizes a point I have made several times, that you seem eager to ignore. The points is that we do not know enough about all the connections of the material and immaterial. They are intricately interwoven. We dare not treat either lightly. In many cases, clearing up spiritual issues will alleviate the physical issues.

Have you read Welch?

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by Phillip:

The only testing I know of is for bi-polar, not depression. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear.
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I'm guessing too that the tests are probably expensive and not easily available to the average person? Maybe insurance companies have lobbied against their availability?
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If it works, they pretty much have to assume it is clinical depression.
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As long as someone has some neurovegetative symptoms, as well, e.g., changes in appetite, sleep, poor concentration, decreased libido.
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By using seratonin uptake medications the person with true clinical depression should respond positively. Unless there is more going on, or it is not depression.
____________
Yes, but as you probably know, sometimes, it might take trials on a couple of different medications before one works.[/QB]

I'm not sure I want to get in the middle of you and Pastor Larry's discussion, ha, ha. I don't know too many professional counselors who buy into the Jay Adams approach to mental illness, but if that approach works for some people, go for it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I don't know too many professional counselors who buy into the Jay Adams approach to mental illness, but if that approach works for some people, go for it.

This approach is certainly not unique to Adams, but the reason many don't buy into it is precisely what I already stated ... they are fully trained in the issue. They have idea how to look for sin patterns and what to do wih them when they find them. They are not trained to understand the nature of man as being in the image of God yet marred by sin. When you have a lack of knowledge and understanding, you will pursue the wrong things. Phillip's earlier example of seizures and epilepsy was a prime example. Because they didn't understand, they were treating it wrongly. Now you have the same thing reversed in many cases. I wish people had a fuller understanding so true hope could be given.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by PatsFan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Phillip:

The only testing I know of is for bi-polar, not depression. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear.
_______________________
I'm guessing too that the tests are probably expensive and not easily available to the average person? Maybe insurance companies have lobbied against their availability?
________________
If it works, they pretty much have to assume it is clinical depression.
_______________________
As long as someone has some neurovegetative symptoms, as well, e.g., changes in appetite, sleep, poor concentration, decreased libido.
_______________________
By using seratonin uptake medications the person with true clinical depression should respond positively. Unless there is more going on, or it is not depression.
____________
Yes, but as you probably know, sometimes, it might take trials on a couple of different medications before one works.

I'm not sure I want to get in the middle of you and Pastor Larry's discussion, ha, ha. I don't know too many professional counselors who buy into the Jay Adams approach to mental illness, but if that approach works for some people, go for it. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Ah, 'scuse me, but for those just reading, I only wrote two maybe three of those statements above. The rest were from other people. ...just wanted to make that REAL clear.

 

[PatsFan]

Originally posted by Phillip:
[/QB]

(PHILLIP) Ah, 'scuse me, but for those just reading, I only wrote two maybe three of those statements above. The rest were from other people. ...just wanted to make that REAL clear. [/QB][/QUOTE]
(PatsFan) Phillip is right. My comments are mixed in with his. My computer skills leave much to be desired, ha, ha.

 

[Phillip]

No problemo, I certainly don't want to take credit where credit isn't deserved.

Have a great day!

Pastor Larry, I get what you are saying and I do agree with it, the degree to which you divide the spiritual from the medical is where I am having a problem; but it is a minor issue. I think you credit too many cases of depression to the person's way of life, but that would require clinical testing to prove. Otherwise, I have no problems with you basic theory.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

This web site was posted by JGrubbs early in this discussion and I believe it has some worthwhile things to say to us as Christians with regard to depression.

Christian Depression Pages
http://www.gospelcom.net/cdp/sayings.htm

"There must be something wrong with your spiritual life"

Yes, depression CAN be a result of sin. BUT depression is NOT always a result of sin! If it is, God will tell you loud and clear what the problem is.

Saying this piles on the guilt for the depressed Christian. It's unlikely that their depression has a spiritual cause, and saying this implies that they are not good enough spiritually.

"Repent and ask forgiveness for your sin!"
Depression is a result of sin, in that if there was no sin in the world depression wouldn't exist. But then, neither would diabetes or cancer...

It is not a sin to be depressed, any more than it is to have any other illness.

Depression can be used by God to encourage repentance, but in that case, it will be crystal clear exactly what sin you should repent of. If you don't know, or have just a vague sense of guilt, your depression is not the result of a sin.

It wouldn't be the act of a loving God to refuse to tell you what you need to repent of.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If you don't know, or have just a vague sense of guilt, your depression is not the result of a sin.

It wouldn't be the act of a loving God to refuse to tell you what you need to repent of.

Sounds great ... but the problem is that sin is defined by God and much guilt comes to people who refuse to accept his word, and therefore, can't define the source of their guilt. So that is really quite an inadequate statement.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I don't accept your basic thesis, that most depression is a result of sin. I just don't see the difference between saying that and saying that most illness is caused by sin. What's the difference? Talk to the Christian Scientists about that.

I personally believe that what we've discovered in medicine should be put to good use. What you're arguing sets us back into the Middle Ages with regard to how depression is viewed. At least (so far) you don't go so far as saying thaty mental illness is a result of demonic possession and requires an exorcism. Believe it or not a former deacon in our church told me that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I don't accept your basic thesis, that most depression is a result of sin. I just don't see the difference between saying that and saying that most illness is caused by sin. What's the difference?

Easy. Depression is most often a state of hte mind, the result of sinful thoughts processes, guilt brought on by sinful choices, etc. In fact, as I pointed out, most if not all of the diagnostic criteria can be the result of living in sin. Illness is a state of hte body. Some depression can be physical, but most is not.

I personally believe that what we've discovered in medicine should be put to good use.

Absolutely. I am not addressing that issue.

What you're arguing sets us back into the Middle Ages with regard to how depression is viewed.

Actually, it takes us all the way back to Scripture and views it biblically. That is where we need to be in order to give real hope to hurting people. The modern way takes away hope by tellign people they can't do anything about it wihtout taking meds. I reject that as cruel treatment.

At least (so far) you don't go so far as saying thaty mental illness is a result of demonic possession and requires an exorcism.

Some may be, but I think Satan gets way too much credit for things that are the result of our own sinful doing. In most cases, he doesn't need to help us. We are plenty self-destructive on our own.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't accept your basic thesis, that most depression is a result of sin. I just don't see the difference between saying that and saying that most illness is caused by sin. What's the difference?

Easy. Depression is most often a state of hte mind, the result of sinful thoughts processes, guilt brought on by sinful choices, etc. In fact, as I pointed out, most if not all of the diagnostic criteria can be the result of living in sin. Illness is a state of hte body. Some depression can be physical, but most is not.
</font>[/QUOTE]Is Alzheimer's disease also just a state of the mind and caused by sin as well? What causes Alzheimer's? What causes depression? Give me some proof. I know, for example, that depression can be inherited. If one identical twin suffers from it the probability is high (I believe 80%) that the other will have problems as well. How do you explain that?

 

[Brandon Tallman]

I would think that to be depressed in most cases is to loose sight of all we have to be greatful for,allthough Im sure its easier said than done.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Easy. Depression is most often a state of hte mind, the result of sinful thoughts processes, guilt brought on by sinful choices, etc. In fact, as I pointed out, most if not all of the diagnostic criteria can be the result of living in sin. Illness is a state of hte body. Some depression can be physical, but most is not.

Okay, Pastor Larry, you have placed it all in one place now, so please do not accuse me of not reading what you say. Here is where most of us disagree with you. This particular line completely goes against modern medicine and spiritual counseling:

" Depression is most often a state of hte mind, the result of sinful thoughts processes, guilt brought on by sinful choices, etc."

Key words here are "most often".

By making these choices, you are putting yourself ahead of the doctor and medical profession regarding the meaning of "depression"; although I have no doubt that you feel that way, it does not make it correct.

All illness of mankind is sin. This certainly does not mean that a person with depression is the sinner. Sorry, disagree with you here.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Phillip:
Okay, Pastor Larry, you have placed it all in one place now, so please do not accuse me of not reading what you say. Here is where most of us disagree with you. This particular line completely goes against modern medicine and spiritual counseling:

" Depression is most often a state of hte mind, the result of sinful thoughts processes, guilt brought on by sinful choices, etc."

Key words here are "most often".

That is what I have said from day one. It is most often a state of mind. I could really say "always" becuase depression always invovles thoughts. But sometimes the thought processes are affected by physical causes. I can't imagine why you would disagree with that.

[quoteBy making these choices, you are putting yourself ahead of the doctor and medical profession regarding the meaning of "depression"; although I have no doubt that you feel that way, it does not make it correct.[/quote]]I don't know any doctor who disagrees with what I have said. The only disagreement is the extent of "how often." Many doctors seem "often" as much more than many other doctors do. I tend towards "most often;" others tend towards "less often."

All illness of mankind is sin.

I disagree. It is all ultimately related ot sin, but not the direct result of sin.

This certainly does not mean that a person with depression is the sinner.

All people with depression are sinners. The sin may or may not cause the depression. I believe in most cases it does, and as I have pointed out, virtually all of hte diagnostic keys used to diagnose depression are evidences or results of sin in the life. How do we know whether it is caused by sin or not? That is why I say that most psychologists and psychiatrists are ill equipped to handle this. They can't tell the difference.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Is Alzheimer's disease also just a state of the mind and caused by sin as well?

No, and ultimately yes, but immediately, probably not.

Alzheimer's has a known physical cause. Depression does not. As I said, the factors used to diagnose depression are virtually all factors that can be related to or caused by sin. BTW, Welch's book has a great chapter on Alzheimer's, as well as on depression. It is a must read if you are serious about learning about this subject.

I know, for example, that depression can be inherited. If one identical twin suffers from it the probability is high (I believe 80%) that the other will have problems as well. How do you explain that?

OUt of all the questions you have asked, this may be the easiest. There is no proof that depression is inherited. Since we don't even know what physical cause there is for depression we certianly can't call it inherited genetically. In fact, remember what I already pointed out: Drugs for depression treat no known chemical deficiency. They relieve depressive symptons.

One thing that we know is that people most often learn how to deal with life's problems by watching those who they grow up around. That is the root of the old saying "Like father like son." It is also the a spiritual truth found in 1 John 2: Children grow up to be like their fathers. It is no wonder that children of depressed or melancholy people tend to be that way when they grow up. That is how they have learned to deal with life's problems. It is why angry parents tend to raise angry children. It is why happy parents tend to raise happier or more easy going children. It is a simple fact of life.

Sometimes, we over look the obvious in search of a blame, and this is one of those cases.

 

[AVL1984]