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Is Drinking Wine Wrong??
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
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Post your resources for this information. This sounds made up to me. The "best" wine, Isaiah 25:6 tells us...is the AGED wine, not the BOILED wine.
Your really have no clue what you are talking about. Yeast doesn't make someone drunk...alcohol does!
Your view of wine would negate the Passover. Go back and read Exodus. There was to be NO leaven in homes for seven days. Grape juice has leaven. Wine (alcoholic) does not.
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
webdog said:
Context?
The Bible says neither Aaron or his sons were to drink fermented beverages in the tabernacle of the congregation. We are said to be sons in Hebrews. Not just the pastors, but all believers. As sons, we are not to partake of fermented beverages... especially in the communion.
How's that for context.
Don't try to justify sin by twisting the scripture.
TaliOrlando
New Member
His Blood Spoke My Name said:
WOW !! AWESOME!!! :thumbs:
Yeast is one of the catalysts that cause the natural sugars to break down and become two things:
Products produced by fermentation are actually waste products produced during the reduction of pyruvate to regenerate NAD+ in the absence of oxygen.
When yeast ferments, it breaks down the glucose (C6H12O6) into exactly two molecules of ethanol (C2H6O) and two molecules of carbon dioxide (CO2).
- Ethanol fermentation (done by yeast and some types of bacteria) breaks the pyruvate down into ethanol and carbon dioxide. It is important in bread-making, brewing, and wine-making. When the ferment has a high concentration of pectin, minute quantities of methanol can be produced. Usually only one of the products is desired; in bread the alcohol is baked out, and in alcohol production the carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere.
- Lactic acid fermentation breaks down the pyruvate into lactic acid. It occurs in the muscles of animals when they need energy faster than the blood can supply oxygen. It also occurs in some bacteria and some fungi. It is this type of bacteria that convert lactose into lactic acid in yogurt, giving it its sour taste.
The reaction differs according to the sugar being used in the process of anaerobic respiration, below, the sugar will be glucose (C6H12O6) the simplest sugar.
Chemical Equation
C6H12O6 → 2C2H5OH + 2CO2 + 2 ATP (Energy Released:118 kJ mol−1) Word Equation
Sugar (glucose) → Alcohol + Carbon Dioxide + Energy (ATP) [edit]
Zymology
Zymology is the science term for fermentation. It deals with the biochemical processes involved in fermentation, with yeast selection and physiology, and with the practical issues of brewing. Zymology is occasionally known as zymurgy.
[edit]
Simple Definition
Fermentation can be simply defined, in this context, as the conversion of sugar molecules into ethanol and carbon dioxide by yeast.
C6H12O6 => 2CO2 + 2C2H5OH
Now since you have been properly schooled, I believe an apology is in order.
webdog said:
I don't know where you got your information, but grape juice does NOT have leaven--and never has had leaven. Wine HAS leaven--yeast has to be ADDED to the already decaying grapes in order to produce alcohol. If grape juice has leaven, then it would be fermented, and grocery stores would not be able to sell it to minors.
I was raised in the Jewish faith--we used "grape juice"--unfermented--(without the leaven) for the children and "fermented" wine (with leaven) for the adults, at our Passover seders.
The "fruit of the vine" is the pure unfermented juice of the grape which Jesus drank at the Last Supper--it represents His precious blood of the New Covenant--undefiled.
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; (Hebrews 7:26)
No, drinking wine is not a sin. Gluttony and abuse is the sin. Christ made wine and spoke of vineyards as does the Bible throughout.
In addition. The wine could not have been simply grape juice or weak, as the Bible states Noah passed out "drunk".
Jesus makes wine.
Drinking is not a sin unless you wish to say Christ was a sinner or caused other's to sin. This is clearly an example of when man interjects his belief into scripture or upon others. Such as when some tell people they are going to hell simply for dancing or wearing clothes other than dresses. When the Bible encourages dance and instucts simply to dress modestly.
However, in regards to alcohol or wine.
The Lord may see abstaining from such as being somewhat more righteous. Or more plausibly as some others said, the Lord requires Preachers/elders not to partake of such. In order to be more righteous or maintain such.
I think the later is more accurate as some have offered other scripture supporting that. In addition note the following when the angel tells Zacharias that he and Elizabeth will have a son(John). It is noted "wine" and "strong drink". So apparently they had other drinks even stronger than wine.
So drinking is not the sin. Gluttony and abuse is. However, The Lord may see those who do not partake of such as being more righteouse, in that regard. Or abstaining from such is the righteouse manner for Preachers and elders.
Take care. Ralph
In addition. The wine could not have been simply grape juice or weak, as the Bible states Noah passed out "drunk".
Jesus makes wine.
Drinking is not a sin unless you wish to say Christ was a sinner or caused other's to sin. This is clearly an example of when man interjects his belief into scripture or upon others. Such as when some tell people they are going to hell simply for dancing or wearing clothes other than dresses. When the Bible encourages dance and instucts simply to dress modestly.
However, in regards to alcohol or wine.
The Lord may see abstaining from such as being somewhat more righteous. Or more plausibly as some others said, the Lord requires Preachers/elders not to partake of such. In order to be more righteous or maintain such.
I think the later is more accurate as some have offered other scripture supporting that. In addition note the following when the angel tells Zacharias that he and Elizabeth will have a son(John). It is noted "wine" and "strong drink". So apparently they had other drinks even stronger than wine.
So drinking is not the sin. Gluttony and abuse is. However, The Lord may see those who do not partake of such as being more righteouse, in that regard. Or abstaining from such is the righteouse manner for Preachers and elders.
Take care. Ralph
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Linda64 said:
Linda your post is so full of false information I dont even know where to start.
First most wine is not fortified. There are fortified wines like port and some dessert wines but your gereral wine is the same as wine has always been and made much the same way. Wine can not be filtered to stop fermentation and boiling has to be at the temps to produce pasturization and that could not be done until much later in history.
Alcohol is not a product of decay or spoilage. It is the result of emzimes produced by yeast cells, like yogrut and cottage cheese. There is alot of yeast of the skin of a grape and it is more then enough to cause fermentation. Fact is that yeast reproduces at an amazing rate. I will find the numbers but a few yeast cells will be a few hundred thousand in very little time. Or better said A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Besides it is not the yeast that caused intoxication, it is the alcohol that is produced. The amount of yeast is unimportant.
You dont get drunk for eating grapes and rasens because you dont get drunk for eating yeast. Yeast produces alcohol when mixed with suger. The yeast is on the outside of the skin and has not been mixed. When the grape is crushed fermentation startes.
But most of all for grape juice to be free for yeast (leaven) to be used on passover it has to contain enough alcohol to kill the leaven. That is around %14. The jews including Jesus used wine on passover it had to be alcoholic and have enough alcohol to kill yeast.
You should educate yourself on the subject before posting.
From what I have studied archeologically, the ancient wines and beers were very intoxicating.
More to the point I have done a study of verses (using www.crosswalk.com) and have found NO verse that prohibits using wine, I only did the NT because that is where the Christian is supposed to get their laws from.
Here is what I found, the only verse saying a person would have no wine, was Luke 1:15 and was speaking of John the baptizer, not Jesus.
Then is a prohibition is not to drink in front of those who it would cause to stumble.
The next prohibition of sorts is that deacons and elders (or bishops) are not to be "given to wine" in other words not to be over indulgent with alcohol.
Now looking up the word drunken, THAT is prohibited, several times and is illustrated by bad behavior in parables.
Jesus not only drank wine (and according to the NT is The priest of this age and our example) He made wine, at a wedding after his mother requested it.
I find it interesting that Jesus was proclaimed by the conservative religious leaders of His day as a drunkard and a glutton, and he rebuked them for it. He however was never drunken nor was he a glutton.
Gluttony is warned against in titus 1:2 as something not to be.
So i would have to say since the NT shows us NOT to be drunken and not to be gluttonous, then if drinking is a sin, so is eating. It is adding to what God says to say either one.
Both are matters of self control, which Paul teaches over and over again.
Here are some of his teachings. Ac 24:25, 1Co 7:5 , Ga 5:23 , 2Ti 3:3, 2Pe 1:6 .
Now my crosswalk search words were
drunken, wine, glutton, self control.
The KJV says "slow bellies" in Titus the NIV says lazy glutton, to me they are the same thing
More to the point I have done a study of verses (using www.crosswalk.com) and have found NO verse that prohibits using wine, I only did the NT because that is where the Christian is supposed to get their laws from.
Here is what I found, the only verse saying a person would have no wine, was Luke 1:15 and was speaking of John the baptizer, not Jesus.
Then is a prohibition is not to drink in front of those who it would cause to stumble.
The next prohibition of sorts is that deacons and elders (or bishops) are not to be "given to wine" in other words not to be over indulgent with alcohol.
Now looking up the word drunken, THAT is prohibited, several times and is illustrated by bad behavior in parables.
Jesus not only drank wine (and according to the NT is The priest of this age and our example) He made wine, at a wedding after his mother requested it.
I find it interesting that Jesus was proclaimed by the conservative religious leaders of His day as a drunkard and a glutton, and he rebuked them for it. He however was never drunken nor was he a glutton.
Gluttony is warned against in titus 1:2 as something not to be.
So i would have to say since the NT shows us NOT to be drunken and not to be gluttonous, then if drinking is a sin, so is eating. It is adding to what God says to say either one.
Both are matters of self control, which Paul teaches over and over again.
Here are some of his teachings. Ac 24:25, 1Co 7:5 , Ga 5:23 , 2Ti 3:3, 2Pe 1:6 .
Now my crosswalk search words were
drunken, wine, glutton, self control.
The KJV says "slow bellies" in Titus the NIV says lazy glutton, to me they are the same thing
Fresh grape juice that has not been pastorized has leaven. Moderen grape juice has been pastorized to kill leaven. Wine has an alcohol content high enough to kill leaven. When a bottle of wine has lees or sediment of the bottom of the bottle all the yeast has died from the alcohol. You do not have to add yeast to wine. Wild yeast wines are made all the time. I have helped make them. Yeast is added to change the flavor, but the wild yeast has to be killed first because wild yeast on the grape skins is stronger and will take over the added yeast.
Again moderen Welches grape juice sold in stores is pastorized to get rid of yeast. Fresh grape juice is full of leaven.
Yeast is the agent that causes the the juice to become the wine that causes one to become drunk. Without the yeast or fermenting agent juice remains juice.webdog said:
Yeast is absolutely forbidden in the Bible (in certain cases, not all).
Jesus said: Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. Beware of the false doctrine of the Phairisees. Yeast represents false doctrine.
In 1Cor.5:6 it symbolizes the spreading of moral corruption.
In Mat.16:6,6,11 it represents the corruptness the pervesenss of the heart.
In general it represents sin.
Christ is our Passover (1Cor.5), and therefore no yeast of leavening agent could be used in his representation. That would include both elements of the Lord's Table.
Priests could not drink fermented wine and if we be priests of God, we ought not to be drinking fermented wine.
Yeast, fermentation, leaven, (all the same) are symbols of corruption. None of them are to be used in symolizing the blood and body of our Jesus Christ. I beleive that that is close to blasphemous.
Jesus created "new wine," not "old wine," He created the best wine--the fruit of the vine, that which was unfermented. It had the best taste because everything that Christ does (creates) is absolutely perfect and without any flaw. It would have been the best possible drink that man could have ever tasted. It came right from the Master's hand. Who could make a drink any better than the Creator Himself?
DHK
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
Let's look at Noah, shall we?
Noah did get drunk on the wine he made, yes.
The result of that drunkenness caused his son to sin and thereby brought a curse to the son.
Lay the axe to the root. Get rid of the root of the problem. When one plants a garden and a weed comes up, one does not just cut a shoot off the weed and let the rest grow. Nor does one cut the root off at the top of the soil and leave the roots to grow. One digs down and removes the weed, root and all. The root in the story of Noah's drunkeness is the wine. Had Noah not drank it, Ham would not have sinned as he did.
After this one instance of Noah drinking fermented wine, there is no more mention of him drinking fermented beverage again. This should tell one that fermented beverage is not pleasing in God's sight.
Noah did get drunk on the wine he made, yes.
The result of that drunkenness caused his son to sin and thereby brought a curse to the son.
Lay the axe to the root. Get rid of the root of the problem. When one plants a garden and a weed comes up, one does not just cut a shoot off the weed and let the rest grow. Nor does one cut the root off at the top of the soil and leave the roots to grow. One digs down and removes the weed, root and all. The root in the story of Noah's drunkeness is the wine. Had Noah not drank it, Ham would not have sinned as he did.
After this one instance of Noah drinking fermented wine, there is no more mention of him drinking fermented beverage again. This should tell one that fermented beverage is not pleasing in God's sight.
There's nothing wrong with wine being drunk; and there's nothing wrong in a person who drinks wine. But there's nothing right in a drunkard. Now the hypocrites won't blame the culpret, so make wine the drunkard's fall.
mojoala said:
Yes, ans I can't remember I ever read he ever drank again - water, wine, soup, whatever.
Sometimes I wish people were as observant when they argue about the Sabbath.
DHK said:
Am I right when I say that fermentation - yeast - also is used in the Scriptures for the good and holy work of the Holy Spirit in both the lives of the individual and the Church?
I cannot just accept the bread and wine of Holy Communion mustn't be fermented. One reason why I believe Jesus used ordinary bread and wine at the Last Supper is that it was not the Passover meal then, but the last usual meal BEFORE Passover - the last of fermente bread and wine. (Bedikat hamets)
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