Is effeminacy a problem?

[abcgrad94]

This might be straying a bit from the op, I don't know, but I can't help seeing a distinction in the way masculinity is portrayed now vs. the way it was portrayed years ago.

Men used to hold doors for ladies. They got up and let a lady have their seat if she needed one. They had respect for women in general. I remember hearing stories from WWII of how the men would watch their foul language when a lady came into the room.

Nowadays, it seems men no longer treat women in a respectful manner. Women are an OBJECT, like eye candy. TV commercials show "manly men" as the ones with the muscles, sports cars, half-dressed blondes hanging on their arm, and swaggering around like pro-wrestlers.

 

[DiamondLady]

This might be straying a bit from the op, I don't know, but I can't help seeing a distinction in the way masculinity is portrayed now vs. the way it was portrayed years ago.

Men used to hold doors for ladies. They got up and let a lady have their seat if she needed one. They had respect for women in general. I remember hearing stories from WWII of how the men would watch their foul language when a lady came into the room.

Nowadays, it seems men no longer treat women in a respectful manner. Women are an OBJECT, like eye candy. TV commercials show "manly men" as the ones with the muscles, sports cars, half-dressed blondes hanging on their arm, and swaggering around like pro-wrestlers.

Girl, you left yourself WIDE OPEN here for an argument that women are no longer feminine either because they are out in the workplace, taking jobs from men who need them to support their families, they no longer keep the home, they wear pants and look and act like men so why should anyone treat them with respect, give up their seat or watch their language when the women are right there dishing it out with the best of them. (BTW..loved your examples of Ruth, Prov 31 woman and David...great argument!)

I do agree, however, that commercials and television shows objectify women and treat them like eye candy. They chose unrealistic women as the ideal. I simply don't know many women who are 5'9" with a waist a man can span with his hand and legs that go from her neck down....but for some reason that's what Madison Avenue and fashion designers seem to think men want to see.

I took a day to do some doctor's appointments and am still amazed that this silly back and forth is going on. I'd think Luke would "get it" that he's completely wrong in his stance here and I've yet to see one single person agree with his suppositions. I've also noticed he did not answer my last queries.

 

[DiamondLady]

I don't think you have made an argument in this thread until your last post.


It does say in one phrase that a man's daughters worked with him. We do not know ANYTHING about the nature of their work. The text does not say.
I disagree with you Luke, I think it PLAINLY says, " And next unto him repaired Shallum the son of Halohesh, the ruler of the half part of Jerusalem, he and his daughters.



1- I've not said that a woman can never do tasks that are usually ascribed to men. That's not part of my argument in this thread. You have insinuated, however, that if a woman does manly work then she is less than feminine and should stop and only do women's work. Which I asked you before, and you failed to answer, as to what you would consider appropriate work for a woman that would be feminine.

My point about the shoulders of a woman which might have been broadened by doing manly tasks only has to do with the fact that apparently, for her, those shoulders and physical features caused her to walk, talk and move like a man. Again, I asked you what possible work could cause a woman's shoulders to broaded as much as a man. I stated that if I lifted weights for hours a day my shoulders could not come close to the lady I know.

If a woman can occasionally do some manly tasks without becoming manly themselves- more power to them. WOMEN throughout the Bible did manly work....they tended the sheep, the watered countless jugs of water to their father's camels, goats and flocks. They planted and tended the vineyards and crops as well as owned businesses, etc. Yet they still managed to catch the eye of men such as Isaac, Jacob and others throughout the entire Bible.

2- We know nothing about these daughters. We have absolutely NO REASON to think that they were, by trade, builders. We only know that they helped their father this one time. NONE of these men were builders either. They saw the task at hand that God charged them with completing and they did it. As Nehemiah tasked them with building the wall in front of their homes I'm sure more wives and daughters were doing their share as well. Pretty sure these ladies weren't just bringing these big strong he-men...oh wait, these guys were PRINCES, PRIESTS, PHARMACISTS...not exactly what I'd call manly men...glasses of ice water and cool lemonade to soothe their parched throat. This was a less than stellar argument on your part, Luke.

BTW I'm still waiting for responses to my questions from you.

 

[abcgrad94]

Girl, you left yourself WIDE OPEN here for an argument that women are no longer feminine either because they are out in the workplace, taking jobs from men who need them to support their families, they no longer keep the home, they wear pants and look and act like men so why should anyone treat them with respect, give up their seat or watch their language when the women are right there dishing it out with the best of them.

Oh I agree--but it seems to be more acceptable for girls to be "tomboys" than for boys to be mannerly and gentlemanly. For example, when I taught school I was horrified at how some of the little boys acted, but it was excused with "well, boys will be boys." If the girls had caused fights, talked the way those boys did, etc. they would have been in big trouble.

On the other hand, the boys who cried or didn't want to get dirty were labeled as sissies, even though they were just more sensitive and kind. One mom even told me that HER son was a "true" boy because he liked to hunt and fight and get dirty. She said this with prejudice, as if the other boys were wimpy in comparison. So, it seems even children are being taught at an early age to mock or condemn the more sensitive, quiet natured boys. It's no wonder they grow up and condemn others who don't dress or talk like they do!

 

[convicted1]

This might be straying a bit from the op, I don't know, but I can't help seeing a distinction in the way masculinity is portrayed now vs. the way it was portrayed years ago.

Men used to hold doors for ladies. They got up and let a lady have their seat if she needed one. They had respect for women in general. I remember hearing stories from WWII of how the men would watch their foul language when a lady came into the room.

Nowadays, it seems men no longer treat women in a respectful manner. Women are an OBJECT, like eye candy. TV commercials show "manly men" as the ones with the muscles, sports cars, half-dressed blondes hanging on their arm, and swaggering around like pro-wrestlers.

You saw my newest ad? :smilewinkgrin: :love2: :laugh:

 

[convicted1]

I think y'all are missing the point the OP is making. The OP is only asking is it okay for a guy to act feminine, and a woman to act masculine. I say it is not okay for one sex to act like the other. That is against their nature if/when they do so. A man isn't supposed to act like a woman, and a woman is not to act like a man. Their nature(s) weren't designed that way.

 

[blackbird]

But that's not my question.

Is it perfectly OKAY for a man to walk, talk, move, and behave in ways that are largely recognized as feminine?

Would you have a problem with it if your son was displaying very feminine characteristics along these lines, for example?

Would it be "perfectly OKAY" for a woman to walk, talk, move, and behave in ways that are largely recognized as masculine??

What about women who can shoot a shotgun or go fishing---or who happen to like to work on cars instead of being cooped up in an office full of men at some lawyers complex somewhere???

What about if a girl starts cutting her hair to make her look like a "Butch" but she's really NOT a "Butch"??

Just something to think about!!:type::type::1_grouphug:

 

[Skandelon]

I think y'all are missing the point the OP is making. The OP is only asking is it okay for a guy to act feminine, and a woman to act masculine. I say it is not okay for one sex to act like the other. That is against their nature if/when they do so. A man isn't supposed to act like a woman, and a woman is not to act like a man. Their nature(s) weren't designed that way.

The issue is subjective, Willis. As pointed out, who is the measure and standard of what is masculine enough? Are you that judge? Is Luke? And what of cultural norms? In Turkey men hold hands or walk arm in arm. That is not seen as 'gay' or non-masculine in that culture. Clothes are also different in various cultures. Sometimes high voices and lisps can't be helped. These are the issues being discussed here.

I think we would all agree that a man dressing up like a woman (transvestite) is not acceptable.

 

[DiamondLady]

I think y'all are missing the point the OP is making. The OP is only asking is it okay for a guy to act feminine, and a woman to act masculine. I say it is not okay for one sex to act like the other. That is against their nature if/when they do so. A man isn't supposed to act like a woman, and a woman is not to act like a man. Their nature(s) weren't designed that way.

We got his point, or rather his question, but the answer isn't quite that simple. God created each individual differently. By design some women are very large boned, square bodied masculine appearing women. Conversely some men are small and thin with a high-pitched voice. They're not acting like the opposite sex, God created them that way.

So is it okay for them? Absolutely, they're living with the body/voice that God gave them. They can't change it. There's no surgery to make a woman small boned instead of large. There's no surgery or procedure to add height or deepen a voice.

Some women like football, some men like to cook. That's just how God created them. There are things we can change in ourselves, then there's things we can not.

The poster must also remember that much of how we act, speak, and dress is regional and generational. For instance, my father would not consider going to church in summer in anything less than dress slacks with a shirt and tie. Yet, in his church on any given Sunday you'll see men in shorts and flip-flops. HE considers this highly inappropriate attire for Sunday services. You'll find quite a few on this board who wear similar casual clothing to Sunday services. My daddy is 81 and his generation always wore suits and ties to church. My grandson thinks a clean pair of jeans and a t-shirt without his favorite band blazened across the chest is dressed up. He's 16. Generational.

I wear flip-flops or sandals to church with my dresses, probably 40 out of 52 Sundays a year. I live in Florida. When I lived in Chicago I wore nylons and high heels those same 40 our of 52 Sundays a year. Regional

We need to stop worrying so much over minutia and worry more about witnessing to others, being more concerned about the condition of someone's soul over the pitch of their voice, or if they're wearing a pink shirt because we think that's too feminine, or if a woman is too manly.

 

[Luke2427]

Would it be "perfectly OKAY" for a woman to walk, talk, move, and behave in ways that are largely recognized as masculine??

What about women who can shoot a shotgun or go fishing---or who happen to like to work on cars instead of being cooped up in an office full of men at some lawyers complex somewhere???

What about if a girl starts cutting her hair to make her look like a "Butch" but she's really NOT a "Butch"??

Just something to think about!!:type::type::1_grouphug:

That's not the idea of the thread.

All of us have seen MANY men who carried themselves very effeminately. The way they employ wrist movements, the way they purse their lips when they speak, the way they shift their hips when they walk, etc...


Here is an example.

I contend that not only should men not dress like women (a point on which most of us agree), but that for the same reasons men should not not walk, talk and move like women.

 

[Jerome]

Luke, who in the world is is this guy 'Harvey' you keep harping on?

 

[Luke2427]

We got his point, or rather his question, but the answer isn't quite that simple. God created each individual differently. By design some women are very large boned, square bodied masculine appearing women. Conversely some men are small and thin with a high-pitched voice.

None of those things have anything to do with what we're talking about.

No one on earth in the history of the world, I suppose, would declare that a woman born with broad shoulders should cut out her sternum and narrow her stature.

No one on earth in the history of the world, I suppose, has ever said that men whose vocal chords are designed to produce higher pitches than average should go and have their vocal chords stretched.

So I do not understand why this kind of stuff keeps popping up in this thread.

I have said repeatedly so that I might be abundantly clear what I think is problematic in our society along these lines- and it has NOTHING at ALL to do with any of this stuff.

No one can help the physical make-up which God designed them to have. WHN EARTH would question that????

But what healthy people CAN do is control the WAY they employ that physical make up.

A healthy man SIMPLY DOES NOT HAVE TO WALK LIKE A WOMAN. Period.

A healthy man SIMPLY DOES NOT HAVE TO TALK LIKE A WOMAN. Period.

Therefore, for the same reasons that he should not wear a prom dress, he also should not walk, talk and move like a woman.

We need to stop worrying so much over minutia and worry more about witnessing to others,

I think it is very unfortunate that some people feel like distinction between the sexes is minutia.

I think a loss of masculinity among men and femininity among women is a factor related to the fall of our culture.

It is, in my opinion, a CRYING shame that ALL Christians do not fervently seek to raise their boys to be masculine and their girls to be feminine.

It is a mark of the terrible shape our culture is in, in my opinion.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, who in the world is is this guy 'Harvey' you keep harping on?

An example.

I thought that was clear in my post.

 

[Luke2427]

The issue is subjective, Willis. As pointed out, who is the measure and standard of what is masculine enough? Are you that judge? Is Luke? And what of cultural norms? In Turkey men hold hands or walk arm in arm. That is not seen as 'gay' or non-masculine in that culture. Clothes are also different in various cultures. Sometimes high voices and lisps can't be helped. These are the issues being discussed here.

I think we would all agree that a man dressing up like a woman (transvestite) is not acceptable.

I disagree.

1- Some physical movements and speech patterns are universally feminine and masculine.

Bruno is considered effeminate in most, if not all cultures.

2- Culture matters. If wearing gold and pearls and platting your hair is the distinctive practice of prostitutes in a particular culture, Paul says that women should not wear these things in that culture.

3- The way we walk and talk is related to our physical make-up. There is a reason why men and women in general walk and talk and move differently. Child bearing hips, more delicate wrist and joint make-up, estrogen vs testosterone levels MORE THAN CULTURE dictate how we walk, talk and move.

I contend that when healthy men walk, talk and move like girls- it is voluntary. By voluntary I mean that they would naturally walk distinctively like men were it not for psychological factors (they may have been trained to walk like a woman from birth up by being influenced by women, etc...)

Therefore this is not a matter relegated to subjectivity.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I disagree.

1- Some physical movements and speech patterns are universally feminine and masculine.

Would you please give some examples of movement or speech patterns that are universally considered feminine or masculine.

Bruno is considered effeminate in most, if not all cultures.

2- Culture matters. If wearing gold and pearls and platting your hair is the distinctive practice of prostitutes in a particular culture, Paul says that women should not wear these things in that culture.

3- The way we walk and talk is related to our physical make-up. There is a reason why men and women in general walk and talk and move differently. Child bearing hips, more delicate wrist make-up, estrogen vs testosterone levels MORE THAN CULTURE dictate how we walk, talk and move.

I contend that when healthy men walk, talk and move like girls- it is voluntary. By voluntary I mean that they would naturally walk distinctively like men were it not for psychological factors (they may have been trained to walk like a woman from birth up by being influenced by women, etc...)

Therefore this is not a matter relegated to subjectivity.

I must say you are making very judgmental statements in your post. You are forgetting entirely about bone structure which vary from male to male, from female to female. You walk the way you do because of bone structure as well as culture.

I consider wearing ear rings feminine, but I would never judge a person as being heterosexual or homosexual because they do or do not wear an ear ring. I simply view it as their
Walking like a man or a woman varies from culture to culture. choice ... but to me it is still feminine. The same with bracelets ... other than Medic Alert bracelets.

What is considered effeminate in one culture is not necessarily considered effeminate in another culture.

 

[Luke2427]

I must say you are making very judgmental statements in your post. You are forgetting entirely about bone structure which vary from male to male, from female to female. You walk the way you do because of bone structure as well as culture.

I consider wearing ear rings feminine, but I would never judge a person as being heterosexual or homosexual because they do or do not wear an ear ring. I simply view it as their
Walking like a man or a woman varies from culture to culture. choice ... but to me it is still feminine. The same with bracelets ... other than Medic Alert bracelets.

No one is talking about homosexuality in this whole thread.

If you are going to call me judgmental at least be on topic.

This whole section is strawman.

What is considered effeminate in one culture is not necessarily considered effeminate in another culture.

Once again, this has nothing to do with what I am plainly contending.

Some things ARE cultural. Some things are universal.

I am not talking about things that are exclusively cultural. Yet, I do note that culture DOES matter.

 

[Crabtownboy]

No one is talking about homosexuality in this whole thread.

I agree, but to many effeminate mannerisms leads them to judge a person as homosexual.

Some things ARE cultural. Some things are universal.

Please give me some examples that are universal.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree, but to many effeminate mannerisms leads them to judge a person as homosexual.




Please give me some examples that are universal.

Please refer to post 137.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Please refer to post 137.

Post 137 was the post that prompted my first request that you list mannerisms that are universally seen as effeminate.

So, give me a list of specific actions, mannerisms, etc. that are universally seen as effeminate?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke2427 posted...

I think that's pretty clear.

If her shoulders are broad because she was born that way- that's one thing.

If her shoulders are broad because she has made them that way through manly activities- that's another thing.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh::