Is Election Conditional?

[Internet Theologian]

???? From our perspective it's totally unconditional. That's WHY it's referred to as UNCONDITIONAL election; no merit or inherent goodness within us caused Him to choose us.

Why all the '????'. Nothing in my statement denied unconditional election. I am making a play on words. It is only conditioned upon God, not man. Yes, I believe in unconditional election.

 

[MB]

Yep, I sure can because it is all over the NT.

Note Titus 1:1;

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness

1 Thess. 1:4;

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

From the apostle to the Gentiles note 2 Timothy2:8-10;

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,
for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31;

or consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.

But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;

God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God

And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so as it is written "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord"

Note the Corinthians were called elect yet this was the milk of the Word, Paul had taught them only this thus far; 1 Cor. 3:2. Therefore even a babe in Christ should know and understand they are elect, whether Jew or Gentile. You should have known this as well.

I am certain you've 'claimed' Romans 8:28-39 for yourself, yet, it is for the elect of God who are both Jew and Gentile. You should have known this, it is readily apparent in the NT and is the milk of the Word.

These verses when read in the KJV or the NASB do not say the same thing.as what you have posted here. This is the reason I do not use many of the newer versions. Maybe I should have said that there is no evidence of a Gentile being referred to as elect in the KJV or the NASB. and not even the NIV
This is 1si cor 3:2 in the KJV.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Paul continues to talk about being carnal. No one in this whole chapter is called elect
MB

 

[Internet Theologian]

These verses when read in the KJV or the NASB do not say the same thing.as what you have posted here. This is the reason I do not use many of the newer versions. Maybe I should have said that there is no evidence of a Gentile being referred to as elect in the KJV or the NASB. and not even the NIV

That's not accurate, or remotely true. the same verses I've provided teach the same doctrine as the ESV and other versions.

You're incorrect that it doesn't show this in the KJV or NASB:

Titus 1:1, KJV, then NASB:

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Tit 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

1 Thess. 1:4, KJV then NASB:

1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

1Th 1:4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;

1 Corinthians 1:26-31, KJV then NASB:

1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
1Co 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
1Co 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
1Co 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

##​

1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
1Co 1:27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no man may boast before God.
1Co 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
1Co 1:31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."


Each passage shows the doctrine of election in all versions applied to Gentiles. I'm sure you're aware of this but perhaps cannot admit that you're plain wrong friend? It's right there in front of your eyes. The same is also seen in the NIV.

Then you say this:

This is 1si cor 3:2 in the KJV.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Paul continues to talk about being carnal. No one in this whole chapter is called elect
MB

I didn't say election was taught in that passage, I showed it was taught earlier in the book, and used the above verse as evidence that election that was taught earlier is the milk of the Word.

Interestingly enough you only quote the passage that didn't show it specifically, but not the ones given that I showed did do so. You're being disingenuous brother. The teaching is plain in the passages I've provided.

 

[MB]

Internet theologin;
All you have shown is people who have been chosen. Not one Gentile called elect. Not one. Paul taught in Synagogues where ever he went with the exception of Mars hill and Jail. How many Gentiles go to synagogues?. The answer to this is not very many. I've never been to a synagogue and I live in modern times. What makes you believe synagogues were packed with Gentiles? When Gentiles at the time hated Jews just as most of them still do today. How does Paul teach Gentiles in a synagogue? A synagogue is a gathering place for Jews. Gentiles were rejected by Jews. You have assumed that they were Gentiles in the synagogue. Which is just not accurate.
MB

 

[SovereignGrace]

Brother MB:

1 & 2 Corinthians were written to the church @ Corinth. It was not a synagouge.

1 & 2 Thessalonians were written to the church @ Thessalonica. It was not a synagouge, either.

Paul left Titus in Crete to ordain Elders in the church, not synagouges. IIRC, Crete was gentile and not Jewish.

These were the scriptural references Brother IT used, and I wanted to expound on them.

Then Apostle Paul wrote to the church @ Rome and you have chapters 8-11 that he puts emphasis on God's electing love upon both Jew and Gentile.

 

[MB]

Brother MB:

1 & 2 Corinthians were written to the church @ Corinth. It was not a synagouge.

1 & 2 Thessalonians were written to the church @ Thessalonica. It was not a synagouge, either.

Paul left Titus in Crete to ordain Elders in the church, not synagouges. IIRC, Crete was gentile and not Jewish.

These were the scriptural references Brother IT used, and I wanted to expound on them.

Then Apostle Paul wrote to the church @ Rome and you have chapters 8-11 that he puts emphasis on God's electing love upon both Jew and Gentile.

I didn't say he wrote to a synagogue. You are correct that the Church was a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. However since paul's custom was to go the Synagogue first to tell them about Christ means that the church was started in the synagogue. Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin and he was from Rome this indicates Rome also had a population of Jews as all of the mediterain area had many Jews. Jews are every where. Even in Crete.
MB

 

[SovereignGrace]

I didn't say he wrote to a synagogue. You are correct that the Church was a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. However since paul's custom was to go the Synagogue first to tell them about Christ means that the church was started in the synagogue. Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin and he was from Rome this indicates Rome also had a population of Jews as all of the mediterain area had many Jews. Jews are every where. Even in Crete.
MB

Paul had a zeal to see his own people saved, even willing to give up his salvation for them. But where do you find proof that while in Crete he first went to synagouges?

Regardless, he wrote letters to churchrs in gentile countries telling them of their election. One can't be chosen by God and not be elected by Him.

 

[revmwc]

I didn't say he wrote to a synagogue. You are correct that the Church was a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. However since paul's custom was to go the Synagogue first to tell them about Christ means that the church was started in the synagogue. Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin and he was from Rome this indicates Rome also had a population of Jews as all of the mediterain area had many Jews. Jews are every where. Even in Crete.
MB

Paul stated this in Romans 9, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? So here we God called both Jew and Gentile, now we see Romans 8 states,
"30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."
Those who are called are now listed with the elect who are called Jew and Gentile, so who are the elect all who are called! Any who has been saved are elect according to God's foreknowledge and therefore whom God knew before had God predestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son. That is all who believe are elect and predestinated whether Jew or Gentile all are the elect. Election is based on one thing What God Knew Beforehand.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Internet theologin;
All you have shown is people who have been chosen. Not one Gentile called elect.
MB

Chosen is elect. Or do you cast off this truth as well so as to fit into your ideology?

You've been shown adequate evidence and aren't rejecting me, but something of far greater importance, Scripture and truth. You don't even flinch when you do it.

 

[revmwc]

Internet theologin;
All you have shown is people who have been chosen. Not one Gentile called elect. Not one. Paul taught in Synagogues where ever he went with the exception of Mars hill and Jail. How many Gentiles go to synagogues?. The answer to this is not very many. I've never been to a synagogue and I live in modern times. What makes you believe synagogues were packed with Gentiles? When Gentiles at the time hated Jews just as most of them still do today. How does Paul teach Gentiles in a synagogue? A synagogue is a gathering place for Jews. Gentiles were rejected by Jews. You have assumed that they were Gentiles in the synagogue. Which is just not accurate.
MB

Titus 1:1=elekton=chosen ones called the elect in KJV

Ephesians 1:4=elexato=He Chooses

2 Thess. 2:13=eilato=preferred

Romans 9:11=eklogen=choice

1 Thes. 1:4=eklogen=election while adelophoi=brothers

1 Peter 5:13=suneklekte=together chosen=kvj elect together

Everyone of these shows that chosen and elect are synonomous terms.

 

[MB]

Titus 1:1=elekton=chosen ones called the elect in KJV

Ephesians 1:4=elexato=He Chooses

2 Thess. 2:13=eilato=preferred

Romans 9:11=eklogen=choice

1 Thes. 1:4=eklogen=election while adelophoi=brothers

1 Peter 5:13=suneklekte=together chosen=kvj elect together

Everyone of these shows that chosen and elect are synonomous terms.

You seem to think I haven't looked at a dictionary. If you had read all my post in this thread you might have a better idea of what I'm writing about. I believe all of the elect are Jews.God's chosen people. I believe that the election of the Jews is different than the choosing of the Gentiles. The election of the Jews was for a people separate from all others. The choosing of the Gentiles was specifically to make the Jews Jealous.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

I already know you will disagree that the verse above has anything to do with being chosen for Salvation yet it still does show that Gentiles are chosen to hear the Gospel of Salvation. At any rate the election and choosing are not for the same things yet both are choosings. The only thing similar is in the sense they are both corporate and not individual. This is why I believe who so ever may come to Christ. and the choosing of men for Salvation is completely conditional upon faith.

One other thing Faith is not a work of man but a work of the Holy Spirit. It is He who convinces us of the truth of the gospel. Which brings men to faith, Saving faith, with out which there can be no Grace.
Grace comes through Faith.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
MB

 

[MB]

Chosen is elect. Or do you cast off this truth as well so as to fit into your ideology?

You've been shown adequate evidence and aren't rejecting me, but something of far greater importance, Scripture and truth. You don't even flinch when you do it.

Know this all you have is accusations. I have not accused you of anything. I could if I so chose to. Your problem is you do not understand what I am writing I admit that election and choosing are the same things but there is a difference between the election of the Jews and the choosing of the Gentiles they are not for the same reasons.
Read the post I just sent to revmwc

 

[revmwc]

You seem to think I haven't looked at a dictionary. If you had read all my post in this thread you might have a better idea of what I'm writing about. I believe all of the elect are Jews.God's chosen people. I believe that the election of the Jews is different than the choosing of the Gentiles. The election of the Jews was for a people separate from all others. The choosing of the Gentiles was specifically to make the Jews Jealous.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

I already know you will disagree that the verse above has anything to do with being chosen for Salvation yet it still does show that Gentiles are chosen to hear the Gospel of Salvation. At any rate the election and choosing are not for the same things yet both are choosings. The only thing similar is in the sense they are both corporate and not individual. This is why I believe who so ever may come to Christ. and the choosing of men for Salvation is completely conditional upon faith.

One other thing Faith is not a work of man but a work of the Holy Spirit. It is He who convinces us of the truth of the gospel. Which brings men to faith, Saving faith, with out which there can be no Grace.
Grace comes through Faith.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
MB

You seem to miss the fact that many proselytes were added to the Jewish nation and in fact one was the grandmother of David by name of Ruth. Also Rahab was in his lineage and they too were part of the nation Israel and part of the elect added because of their Faith. Just as Gentiles are added to the Kingdom of God and Christ upon salvation and are elect according to God's foreknowledge. What made one a proselytes?

 

[revmwc]

You seem to think I haven't looked at a dictionary. If you had read all my post in this thread you might have a better idea of what I'm writing about. I believe all of the elect are Jews.God's chosen people. I believe that the election of the Jews is different than the choosing of the Gentiles. The election of the Jews was for a people separate from all others. The choosing of the Gentiles was specifically to make the Jews Jealous.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

I already know you will disagree that the verse above has anything to do with being chosen for Salvation yet it still does show that Gentiles are chosen to hear the Gospel of Salvation. At any rate the election and choosing are not for the same things yet both are choosings. The only thing similar is in the sense they are both corporate and not individual. This is why I believe who so ever may come to Christ. and the choosing of men for Salvation is completely conditional upon faith.

One other thing Faith is not a work of man but a work of the Holy Spirit. It is He who convinces us of the truth of the gospel. Which brings men to faith, Saving faith, with out which there can be no Grace.
Grace comes through Faith.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
MB

Gentiles were to be included from the start. In fact the elect go all the way back to Adam who was not a Jew as the Jewish nation was not called out unto many millennials later with the actual changing of Jacob's name to Israel. Then the distinction came between Jew and Gentile, so was Adam elected, what about Enoch who walked with God and was not, he was neither Jew nor Gentile and what about Noah did God elect these? Not one was a Jew of the nation Israel were they called and elect or simply just instruments to make the Jews jealous?

 

[MB]

Paul stated this in Romans 9, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? So here we God called both Jew and Gentile, now we see Romans 8 states,
"30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."
Those who are called are now listed with the elect who are called Jew and Gentile, so who are the elect all who are called! Any who has been saved are elect according to God's foreknowledge and therefore whom God knew before had God predestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son. That is all who believe are elect and predestinated whether Jew or Gentile all are the elect. Election is based on one thing What God Knew Beforehand.

A calling as I understand it is for a particular purpose of God. Such as taking the gospel to a particular people. We are drawn to Christ not called to Him. We are all predestined to fulfill a purpose of God once we are in Him.
MB

 

[MB]

You seem to miss the fact that many proselytes were added to the Jewish nation and in fact one was the grandmother of David by name of Ruth. Also Rahab was in his lineage and they too were part of the nation Israel and part of the elect added because of their Faith. Just as Gentiles are added to the Kingdom of God and Christ upon salvation and are elect according to God's foreknowledge. What made one a proselytes?

Added to the Nation, yes. This does not mean they became elect. There are many Jews who are not elect. Even if we joined the Jewish religion we still would not be considered elect. I maintain that when we are saved we become a part of the Body of Christ. We do not become Jews. When a Jew is saved he is no longer Jewish but Christian and part of the Body of Christ. Christians do not become Jews. This is the reason for my view of election and being chosen. We do not become Jewish because we belong to Christ. I believe that Peter and Paul argued over this.
You asked;"What made one a proselytes?" Aproselyte is simply a convert to a religion. It does not mean they become elect Jews.
I've been told many times by Calvinist that there election from before the foundation of the world means they will be saved no matter what. Yet I believe only those with faith in Christ will actually be saved. Simply because of ;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
With out faith there is no Grace.
MB

 

[Internet Theologian]

Know this all you have is accusations. I have not accused you of anything. I could if I so chose to. Your problem is you do not understand what I am writing I admit that election and choosing are the same things but there is a difference between the election of the Jews and the choosing of the Gentiles they are not for the same reasons.
Read the post I just sent to revmwc

In true form now that you see you are losing your former argument, that no Gentile is elect, you must now change the whole entire discussion into something it wasn't and rewrite it. Any person can note that what you're doing is bearing false witness. Shameful behavior on your part. Now, to further rebut your error, as your fallacy begets more fallacy, all those saved, whether Jew or Gentile are elected for the same reason, to be transformed into the image of God's Son, Romans 8:26ff.

You do err once again.

BTW and for the record, you did in fact state the Scriptures do not say this. Here is your quote:

These verses when read in the KJV or the NASB do not say the same thing.as what you have posted here. This is the reason I do not use many of the newer versions. Maybe I should have said that there is no evidence of a Gentile being referred to as elect in the KJV or the NASB. and not even the NIV
This is 1si cor 3:2 in the KJV.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Paul continues to talk about being carnal. No one in this whole chapter is called elect
MB

I thoroughly refuted the above with Scripture references that show in fact the Gentiles are called such in Scripture. This is what you responded to and to which I quoted in the first quote of yours in this reply above.

Your otherwise stated objective in that quote is a falsified statement and is frankly deceitful.

 

[revmwc]

Added to the Nation, yes. This does not mean they became elect. There are many Jews who are not elect. Even if we joined the Jewish religion we still would not be considered elect. I maintain that when we are saved we become a part of the Body of Christ. We do not become Jews. When a Jew is saved he is no longer Jewish but Christian and part of the Body of Christ. Christians do not become Jews. This is the reason for my view of election and being chosen. We do not become Jewish because we belong to Christ. I believe that Peter and Paul argued over this.
You asked;"What made one a proselytes?" Aproselyte is simply a convert to a religion. It does not mean they become elect Jews.
I've been told many times by Calvinist that there election from before the foundation of the world means they will be saved no matter what. Yet I believe only those with faith in Christ will actually be saved. Simply because of ;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
With out faith there is no Grace.
MB

Only those who by faith in Jesus Cheist are saved. Election is those who will be saved being made conformed to the image of Christ because of the forknowledge of God as well as election to adoption by Jesus by foreknowledge by God to all who will believe. As I believe God already knows who will be saved based on His foreknowledge

 

[Greektim]

I didn't say he wrote to a synagogue. You are correct that the Church was a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. However since paul's custom was to go the Synagogue first to tell them about Christ means that the church was started in the synagogue. Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin and he was from Rome this indicates Rome also had a population of Jews as all of the mediterain area had many Jews. Jews are every where. Even in Crete.
MB

Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin??? Cite that one, please!

 

[MB]

Only those who by faith in Jesus Cheist are saved. Election is those who will be saved being made conformed to the image of Christ because of the forknowledge of God as well as election to adoption by Jesus by foreknowledge by God to all who will believe. As I believe God already knows who will be saved based on His foreknowledge

That may be however we don't know we can only suppose that His foreknowledge is why He chose us. It seems to me if this were so then God would be showing favoritism to those He chose. that is unless every one has been chosen when He died for our sins and the only reason they might not be saved is because of rejection. Choosing only some would also be respect of persons no matter the reason.
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
I'm reminded that Christ also chose Judas. Yet his choosing did not insure his Salvation. I do not know where this idea came from it isn't in scripture. What is your reason for this idea?
If God did choose according to what He knows why would He choose? He already knows they are going to be saved. Just His knowing would have been enough.
It takes Salvation and the Holy Spirit inorder that we can be conformed. No where have I ever read that election or being chosen guarantees Salvation. It sure didn't for the Jews who rejected Christ and it still doesn't for the Jews that were blinded because of there rejection, even though the Jews are still elect.
MB