Is Faith a Work?

[Trotter]

HP: So Ann, faith comes from God, (which is true in a sense) but does this mean God is the 'cause' of our faith in salvation? If God has to grant us faith to believe then He must withhold the means of salvation of others that do not have faith, correct?

How about you Trotter? Maybe I should have addressed you with the question I gave Ann. What might be your response?

I am answering this without reading the rest of the thread thus far, so pardon me if I am stepping between parts of a discussion.

God is not a man and should not be regarded in the same way as a man. Once you can get your mind wrapped around that you will be much better off. Philosophy will get you nowhere with understanding anything about God.

God gives the faith to accept His offer of salvation. Whether or not that meets your definition of "cause" or not I have no idea. I figure you put in quotes for some specific reason, but I don't know your reason for it. I can only tell you in layman's terms as I am no philosopher by any means. Man does not have any faith within himself other than that he creates himself, like to believe in a false gospel, a cult, or even evolution. That kind of "faith" means nothing as far as salvation goes. I can have faith in my wife, but that won't get me to God.

Gos is the author and finisher of faith. He gives it to all who will have it. He does not withhold it from anyone, just as the offer of salvation is available for anyone. While it is true that God knows who will and who will not accept the offer of salvation, He does not pick and choose who will or won't take it. Yes, that is hard to accept in and of itself, but that's just the way it is. We are told to share the gospel with everyone even though only a few will choose to accept it through the faith God gives to accept it. I like to put it this way... God knows who will accept salvation, but He keeps his cards close to His vest and doesn't tell us which ones are which.

Why does God only give faith to those who will accept salvation? Who says He doesn't give it to all? Only those who chose to exercise it actually use it. It's like getting in a car: until you put it into gear you're not going to go anywhere. The same thing applies to faith in that until it is applied in accepting God's offer of salvation through Christ is doesn't go anywhere. Yes, that is overly simplistic, but it does convey what I am trying to say.

God would rather that all men accept His offer of grace. Jesus Christ died for all men, not just a few. His sacrifice will cover the sins of all, but most will choose to ignore and reject it. That's the way man is. God does not force Himself on anyone, and He will allow those who reject His Son to have the very hell that they chose over Him.

God allows us to make the final decision regarding salvation. He furnishes the way and the means as well as the vehicle of it, but He leaves the ball in our court. Each and every person must decide to accept or reject Him, and not making a decision is the same as saying no in this matter. I had a really hard time with this as a young Christian, especially when my sister died suddenly without being saved. I literally wrestled with God for a long time about it, blaming Him for her death. Once I finally stopped long enough for Him to speak to me through prayer and His word, He showed me exactly what I have laid out here. God doesn't condemn anyone; they condemn themselves. I was once condemned by my own hand, but I accepted God's offer of salvation one day... my sister did not and had not when she met her end. I am still saddened by her loss, but I can stand and praise God for His righteousness knowing that her rejection was the cause.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: So....who will be your sacrifice for your future sins? Seeing as Christ only atoned for your sins of the past?

HP: Who said He only atoned for sins that are past??? He made atonement for the sin of the entire world yet all are not forgiven. Christ's atonement is the sacrifice for all sin, but the atonement is only made effective in our lives and for our specific sins when we have met the conditions He demands of us.

You cannot repent for future sins. That would smack of presumptuous sins.

Ps 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Who said He only atoned for sins that are past???

You did.


I said:
Christ has paid the penalty for my sins with His own blood. I have eternal life and will not die. He is my righteousness.

You responded:
….yes, for sins that are past.


You are referring to sins of your past are you not?


So did Christ atone for all of your sins or just the past ones before you were saved?

 

[annsni]

What is it about 'church' that could not be done right here on this list? So we don't sing together. I cetainly do as I am posting or between posts. So we might not pray together? I do between posts, don't you? Steaver and DHK sure do a lot of preaching, and do you not hear some things in Church that are not according to the truth?? I certainly have.
Back to you Marcia. :thumbs:

When we can baptize together and celebrate the Lord's Supper together, then we will be a church.

 

[Amy.G]

When we can baptize together and celebrate the Lord's Supper together, then we will be a church.

Amen!
~~~~

 

[Marcia]

JK, I would say she did and was definitely where ‘two or three are gathered.’ Can you imagine? Learning and fellowshipping with the Lord in person at His feet??? I would think that any honest soul would have considered it the height of their church/fellowship experiences. :thumbs:

Read the context of where 2 or 3 are gathered; it's about the application of church discipline.

 

[Marcia]

Can I tell you what simply ruins church sometimes? Like the other day when I was attending corporate worship. In the midst of an otherwise decent sermon, the preacher told the group that the Lord does not see our sins as believers. I have to admit that I had a real hard time not raising my hand. I would have liked to introduce this verse for discussion : Ps 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Sure sounds like He not only sees and hears but reacts as well.

I am guessing that your pastor meant God does not hold us accountable for our sins when we are in Christ; those sins are forgiven. Of course He sees them; He's not blind. But I am sure this is not what the pastor meant.

 

[Amy.G]

Read the context of where 2 or 3 are gathered; it's about the application of church discipline.

Exactly. I think that is one of the most misused verses of all scripture. If it takes 2 or 3 gathered for Jesus to be in our midst, then when I'm alone, God is not with me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Trotter: God is not a man and should not be regarded in the same way as a man. Once you can get your mind wrapped around that you will be much better off. Philosophy will get you nowhere with understanding anything about God.

HP: You are fooling yourself if you believe you are devoid of a philosophy. All operate according to philosophy either stated or implied. You are certainly no exception.

Trotter: God gives the faith to accept His offer of salvation. Whether or not that meets your definition of "cause" or not I have no idea.

HP: A cause is simply that which produces and effect. It is that which impels the mind to form an intent or make a decision. The cause in issues of morality is the only proper seat of moral blame or praise. If God is the cause, then He is to be praised or blamed. If we are the cause then we are to be blamed or praised. If it is God that gives faith, without which man can be saved, He must of necessity withhold faith from those that are not saved.

You have just in essence worded your philosophy. You hold to a system of necessity, one that God arbitrarily decides who he will and who he will not grant saving faith. Like it or not, you are clearly implying double predestination, granting faith to some and denying the very means that would have made salvation possible, but withholding those means necessitates damnation from their earliest origin and that without any possibility at all to be saved. So much for you not having a philosophy.

Trotter: I figure you put in quotes for some specific reason, but I don't know your reason for it. I can only tell you in layman's terms as I am no philosopher by any means. Man does not have any faith within himself other than that he creates himself, like to believe in a false gospel, a cult, or even evolution. That kind of "faith" means nothing as far as salvation goes. I can have faith in my wife, but that won't get me to God.

HP: Your necessitated philosophy is showing Trotter if you only had eyes to see and ears to hear.

Trotter: God is the author and finisher of faith. He gives it to all who will have it. He does not withhold it from anyone, just as the offer of salvation is available for anyone.

HP: Now you flatly contradict your former position. Now you add a condition upon faith by saying “to all that will have it.” That puts the onus on man receiving and not God giving. In reality of what you say here is, God does not give anything, but rather offers faith IF the individual will “take it.” You are going to have to stand still long enough for me to understand what you believe, for in just a couple of paragraphs you flatly contradict your first stated position.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Read the context of where 2 or 3 are gathered; it's about the application of church discipline.

So the church did exsit already before the cross.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Marcia]

So the church did exsit already before the cross.:smilewinkgrin:

Well, actually there is disagreement on that. I think most Baptists and some others (like Bible churches) believe that the church started at Pentecost.

I'm about to take a seminary course on Ecclesiology/Eschatology (it's required) soon, Lord willing. Then I can address this more fully, but I think the church, as we mean it, started at Pentecost.

The foundation of the church is Jesus Christ, and though He is eternal, of course, and has always existed, he was not incarnated in the OT.

Also, Ephesians 5:32 speaks of the church as a "mystery," meaning it was unknown in the OT covenant days but revealed now (at the time Paul wrote this). This is more evidence that the church did not begin before Pentecost or at least was not around before Christ's incarnation.

 

[Trotter]

Exactly, Marcia. The church did not begin until the coming of the Holy Spirit. Up until then there were people looking for a future hope, and followers of that hope. Until the Spirit was given that's all there was. But once the Spirit came all that changed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: You did.

HP: No I did not.

Amy: I said:
Christ has paid the penalty for my sins with His own blood. I have eternal life and will not die. He is my righteousness.

You responded:
….yes, for sins that are past.

HP: The atonement is not synonymous with Christ making us righteous Amy. The atonement ‘created the way, it ‘built the bridge’ that makes it possible for God to forgive sins and make us righteous before God, but no sins were declared righteous simply because the atonement took place. Only as that work is appropriated in our lives through repentance and faith does the atonements work cover our ‘sins that are past’ with the righteousness of Christ on our behalf. No where doe it ever indicate that Christ is our righteousness for sins that we have not fulfilled the conditions of forgiveness such as would be the case in present sins being engaged in or future sins.

Amy: So did Christ atone for all of your sins or just the past ones before you were saved?

Amy, Christ made an atonement for all the sins of the world, but again that atonement will not be made effective in any life apart from the fulfilling of the conditions of salvation , (or in the case of one that has already partaken of the hope of eternal lfe, renewed reptance and faith) that God has set forth for us to fulfill.

 

[bound]

Faith seems to be an act of the will empowered by the Grace of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bound, does God’s empowerment of faith act as a cause or is it a passive influence upon the will that must be voluntarily yielded to?

 

[DHK]

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What might we do, to do the work of God?
This is the work of God: Believe on him whom he has sent.

It is clear what Jesus meant. Faith is the only "work" that they could do to have eternal life. However Jesus was playing with words. The truth was that they couldn't do any works. Salvation isn't by works. Thus Jesus said: it is by faith (for faith isn't a work). It is the only "work", though it isn't one, that they could do. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. And that was the teaching of Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. And that was the teaching of Christ.

Thank you Jesus! :love2:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, you arrive at a position no where supported by the text. Faith is not set forth as the ‘only’ condition, and more than when Jesus sets forth the condition to repent is repentance the ‘only’ condition.

 

[DHK]

DHK, you arrive at a position no where supported by the text. Faith is not set forth as the ‘only’ condition, and more than when Jesus sets forth the condition to repent is repentance the ‘only’ condition.

Where is repentance set forth as a condition for the gospel?
And then if you can find it, define it in the context that it is used.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: define it in the context that it is used.

HP: You are certainly a fine one to be asking concerning context.



DHK: There are some verses which can stand alone as timeless truths forever speaking forth the truth regardless of context.