Is God through with Isreal, based on this?

[kyredneck]

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

Doc, explain to me why I couldn't interchange 'circumcision' and 'Israel of God' in v 3 to make it read this way:

'for we are the Israel of God, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh'

I am saying the "Israel of God" includes only those with TWO sets of DNA - Jewish DNA (first birth) and Divine DNA (second birth) or TWICE BORN Jews.

But an honest, unbiased rendering of Gal 6:15-16 surely comtradicts that:

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

I mean, really, most of the context of the epistle to the Galatian Churches was all about refuting the efforts of the Judaizers, and clearly Paul was letting these Churches know that THEY were the 'Israel of God', just as he was in the epistle to the Saints at Phillippi (Phil 3:3).

You are forcing your presuppositions onto/into the scriptures in a huge way here.

You're also insisting on the distinction of two entities where the scriptures plainly say there's only one:

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

And that God makes no distinction:

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

 

[Dr. Walter]

I mean, really, most of the context of the epistle to the Galatian Churches was all about refuting the efforts of the Judaizers, and clearly Paul was letting these Churches know that THEY were the 'Israel of God', just as he was in the epistle to the Saints at Phillippi (Phil 3:3).

You are forcing your presuppositions onto/into the scriptures in a huge way here.

You're also insisting on the distinction of two entities where the scriptures plainly say there's only one:

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

And that God makes no distinction:

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

You are confusing the family of God where there is NO JEW of any kind - thus NO ETHNIC DISTINCTION. However, in regard to "the ISRAEL of God" the very term 'ISRAEL" is an ethnic jewish distinction.

You are taking those within the GAP between the setting apart of Israel and the future redemption of Israel and trying to make them "Israel" when in fact there is no PRESENT distinction between Jew and Gentile in this GAP - they are "SPIRITUAL" without any kind of ethnic term attached to them. However, the term "ISRAEL of God" is a definite ETHNIC term.

 

[kyredneck]

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon Jacob's DNA. Gal 6

Forcing your narrow 'one & only' singular definition of Israel into the above passage is not only violence to the scriptures, it's asinine.

 

[kyredneck]

Gill on Gal 6:16:

and upon the Israel of God; which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see 1Co 10:18. The "Israel of God", or as the Arabic version reads it, "Israel the propriety of God"; which he has a right unto, and a claim upon; who are chosen by him, Israel his elect; who are redeemed by him, out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation; who are called by his grace, and are styled Israel his called; who are justified in his Son, and by his righteousness; and for whose sake he is exalted as a Prince and a Saviour, to give them repentance and remission of sin; and who are, or will be saved by him, with an everlasting salvation; and is a name that includes all God's elect, whether Jews or Gentiles: though it may have a particular respect to such of the Israelites, or Jews, God had foreknown and reserved for himself; and who believed in Christ, and walked as new creatures, without confidence in the flesh. The Jews themselves own, that strangers, or proselytes, shall be called by the name of Israel; so they {b} explain Isa 44:5, latter part.

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown on Gal 6:16:

16. as many--contrasting with the "as many," Galatians 6:12.
rule--literally, a straight rule, to detect crookedness; so a rule of life.
peace--from God (Ephesians 2:14-17, 6:23).
mercy--(Romans 15:9).
Israel of God--not the Israel after the flesh, among whom those teachers wish to enrol you; but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:9,29, Romans 2:28,29, Philippians 3:3).

Matthew Henry on Gal 6:16:

The blessings which he desires for those who walk according to this rule, or which he gives them the hope and prospect of (for the words may be taken either as a prayer or a promise), are peace and mercy—peace with God and conscience, and all the comforts of this life as far as they are needful for them, and mercy, or an interest in the free love and favour of God in Christ, which are the spring and fountain of all other blessings. A foundation is laid for these in that gracious change which is wrought in them; and while they behave themselves as new creatures, and govern their lives and hopes by the rule of the gospel, they may most assuredly depend upon them. These, he declares, shall be the portion of all the Israel of God, by whom he means all sincere Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, all who are Israelites indeed, who, though they may not be the natural, yet are become the spiritual seed of Abraham; these, being heirs of his faith, are also heirs together with him of the same promise, and consequently entitled to the peace and mercy here spoken of.

 

[Dr. Walter]

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon Jacob's DNA. Gal 6

Forcing your narrow 'one & only' singular definition of Israel into the above passage is not only violence to the scriptures, it's asinine.

You are intentionally misrepresenting my position and that is what is asinine. If you want to be an honest man, and you need something other than what the text actually says, then simply put "TWICE BORN ISRAELITES." I do not believe in the words you attribute to me "Jacob's DNA" as I explicitly denied that was my position.

I don't think you are interested in an honest debate because you knew that was not my position because you asked and I denied it and yet you placed it in the text with full knowledge that I do not believe that.

Here is the problem. You cannot overthrow the evidence I gave for Romans 11:25-28 and so you have reduced yourself to perverting my position.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Gill on Gal 6:16:

the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh.

This is the true idea. The Spiritual Israel is simply TWICE born Jews whereas the Israel according to the flesh are "JACOB's DNA".

There is no end of quoting people to take sides.

Even if I admitted this text is not decisive for my position as the context makes it questionable, this SINGLE text is not decisive as Romans 9-11 is far more comprehensive of Paul's position on "Israel" and it such an interpretation is impossible for Romans 11.

You can't deal with the evidnece I gave you for Romans 11:25-28 and so you run to an ambiguous single text to overturn the greater evidence against your position.

 

[kyredneck]

You are intentionally misrepresenting my position and that is what is asinine. If you want to be an honest man, and you need something other than what the text actually says, then simply put "TWICE BORN ISRAELITES." I do not believe in the words you attribute to me "Jacob's DNA" as I explicitly denied that was my position.

I didn't misrepresent your position. We are discussing the 'Israel of God' here as used in Galatians 6:16, and that passage only. For brevity's sake I omitted the regeneration part. I fully understand what you mean here:

I am saying the "Israel of God" includes only those with TWO sets of DNA - Jewish DNA (first birth) and Divine DNA (second birth) or TWICE BORN Jews.

and here:

This is the true idea. The Spiritual Israel is simply TWICE born Jews whereas the Israel according to the flesh are "JACOB's DNA".

You're saying 'the Israel of God' does not include redeemed by the blood born from above Gentiles, because they (supposedly) lack the proper DNA that is required to fall into that special class. You're saying that only redeemed by the blood born from above Jews that (supposedly) have the proper DNA fall into the category of 'the Israel of God', and it's asinine to force that meaning into the text of Gal 6:16.

I reiterate:

The bulk of the context of the epistle to the Galatian Churches was all about refuting the efforts of the Judaizers, and clearly Paul was letting these Churches know that THEY were the 'Israel of God', not 'DNA Israel', just as he was in the epistle to the Saints at Phillippi:

Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

 

[Dr. Walter]

I could make the very same charge to you if you defined "remnant" in Romans 11 as only Jews but it would still be a misrepresentation to substitute "remnant" with "Jacob's DNA" as that substitution denies SECOND birth.

You're saying 'the Israel of God' does not include redeemed by the blood born from above Gentiles, because they (supposedly) lack the proper DNA that is required to fall into that special class. You're saying that only redeemed by the blood born from above Jews that (supposedly) have the proper DNA fall into the category of 'the Israel of God', and it's asinine to force that meaning into the text of Gal 6:16.

 

[kyredneck]

I could make the very same charge to you if you defined "remnant" in Romans 11 as only Jews but it would still be a misrepresentation to substitute "remnant" with "Jacob's DNA" as that substitution denies SECOND birth.....

Are you or are you not saying 'the Israel of God' of Gal 6:16 does not include redeemed, born from above Gentiles, because they lack the proper DNA? Yes or no?

Are you or are you not saying that only redeemed, blood born from above Jews have the proper DNA to be included in 'the Israel of God' of Gal 6:16? Yes or no?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Are you or are you not saying 'the Israel of God' of Gal 6:16 does not include redeemed, born from above Gentiles, because they lack the proper DNA? Yes or no?

Are you or are you not saying that only redeemed, blood born from above Jews have the proper DNA to be included in 'the Israel of God' of Gal 6:16? Yes or no?

I am saying that the "ISRAEL" of God is not the "GENTILE" of God!

 

[Iconoclast]

I am saying that the "ISRAEL" of God is not the "GENTILE" of God!

We say the gentiles and jews are the Israel of God...because Jesus is the true Israel and us in Him! To keep it seperate now is wrong.

 

[kyredneck]

We say the gentiles and jews are the Israel of God...because Jesus is the true Israel and us in Him! To keep it seperate now is wrong.

:thumbs: Exactly. Concise and to the point.

When we say 'spiritual Israel', it's inclusive of all those born from the Jerusalem that is above, whether Jew or Gentile, which constitutes a vast number of people. Doc holds that 'Israel', whether physical or spiritual, is an exclusive term reserved only for those that possess a specific DNA. Thus his convulsions over the idea that 'the Israel of God' in Gal 6:16 is inclusive of all the children of the heavenly Zion, regardless of DNA, Jew and Gentile.

Below we have presented to us the seed of Abraham, the seed of David, and the children of Israel, all foretold to become as numerous as the sand of the sea. I see these three terms as being synonymous, referring to the same exact entity in every way. I'd be interested to see what the Doc does with the three terms:

that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed [Abraham] as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore. And thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies. Gen 22:17

As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured; so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. Jer 33:22

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

 

[Dr. Walter]

We say the gentiles and jews are the Israel of God...because Jesus is the true Israel and us in Him! To keep it seperate now is wrong.

Romans 11:25-28, indeed the entire context, makes your interpretation impossible as the term "Israel" in verse 25 cannot include ANY gentiles whatsoever. Romans 9-11 is the more comprehensive teaching of Paul on this subject and one solitary text in Galations cannot be used to overthrow it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

:thumbs: Exactly. Concise and to the point.

When we say 'spiritual Israel', it's inclusive of all those born from the Jerusalem that is above, whether Jew or Gentile, which constitutes a vast number of people. Doc holds that 'Israel', whether physical or spiritual, is an exclusive term reserved only for those that possess a specific DNA. Thus his convulsions over the idea that 'the Israel of God' in Gal 6:16 is inclusive of all the children of the heavenly Zion, regardless of DNA, Jew and Gentile.

Below we have presented to us the seed of Abraham, the seed of David, and the children of Israel, all foretold to become as numerous as the sand of the sea. I see these three terms as being synonymous, referring to the same exact entity in every way. I'd be interested to see what the Doc does with the three terms:

that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed [Abraham] as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore. And thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies. Gen 22:17

As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured; so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. Jer 33:22

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

What you fail to consider is the fact that Abraham's seed come from two different sources. Abraham was promised to be the "father" of a SINGULAR "nation" as well as the "father" of "many nations." Neither should be confused with the other but that is exactly what your position and interpretation has done. None of the "many nations" are ever called "elect" as a nation. Only Israel is called God's "elect" nation for good reason.

Secondly, the term "father" as applied to Abraham in regard to these two sources of "seed" takes on a literal and a metaphorical nature. In regard to the singular "nation" he is their LITERAL "father" as well as METAPHORICAL father, but in regard to the "seed" from "many nations" HE IS NOT THEIR LITERAL FATHER but only their METAPHORICAL "father."

Let me explain further. He is the LITERAL father of "Israel" as a nation BY natural birth but he is not NATURALLY RELATED to "many nations" as a literal "father." The negroid nations, slavic nations, Germanic nations, etc. have no biological origin with Abraham but their are elect from all of them.

He is the METAPHORICAL "father" "BY FAITH" to the elect from "many nations" just as he is the METAPHORICAL father "OF CIRCUMCISION" (Rom. 4:12).

In Romans 11:25 the nation of Israel as a whole represented by the term "Israel" in verse 25 is in blindness and it has been shelfed by God into blindness (v. 7) that salvation could come to the Gentiles (vv. 12-13) and remains in blindness "UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles be come in." That "Israel" remains in blindness till the last Gentile be come in and that "Israel" cannot possibly contain one single Gentile nor can that "Israel" contain one single Jew of the "remnant" as the "remnant" is that "part" of Israel being saved all along the same period that Gentiles are being saved which is the same period the greater "part" of "Israel" as a nation remains in blindness but only remains in blindness "UNTIL" the last gentile be come in.

Therefore, if the phrase "Israel of God" in Galatians does include both Jew and Gentile believers it is a secondary use and metaphorical during this period when the literal elect "Israel of God" is being TEMPORARILY shelfed as "the enemies of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKES but as TOUCHING ELECTION they are beloved for the father's sake" as "all Israel" shall be saved at Christ's return in keeping with the literal promise to the literal "father's ACCORDING TO ELECTION.

 

[Greektim]

What you fail to consider is the fact that Abraham's seed come from two different sources. Abraham was promised to be the "father" of a SINGULAR "nation" as well as the "father" of "many nations." Neither should be confused with the other but that is exactly what your position and interpretation has done. None of the "many nations" are ever called "elect" as a nation. Only Israel is called God's "elect" nation for good reason.

Secondly, the term "father" as applied to Abraham in regard to these two sources of "seed" takes on a literal and a metaphorical nature. In regard to the singular "nation" he is their LITERAL "father" as well as METAPHORICAL father, but in regard to the "seed" from "many nations" HE IS NOT THEIR LITERAL FATHER but only their METAPHORICAL "father."

Let me explain further. He is the LITERAL father of "Israel" as a nation BY natural birth but he is not NATURALLY RELATED to "many nations" as a literal "father." The negroid nations, slavic nations, Germanic nations, etc. have no biological origin with Abraham but their are elect from all of them.

He is the METAPHORICAL "father" "BY FAITH" to the elect from "many nations" just as he is the METAPHORICAL father "OF CIRCUMCISION" (Rom. 4:12).

In Romans 11:25 the nation of Israel as a whole represented by the term "Israel" in verse 25 is in blindness and it has been shelfed by God into blindness (v. 7) that salvation could come to the Gentiles (vv. 12-13) and remains in blindness "UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles be come in." That "Israel" remains in blindness till the last Gentile be come in and that "Israel" cannot possibly contain one single Gentile nor can that "Israel" contain one single Jew of the "remnant" as the "remnant" is that "part" of Israel being saved all along the same period that Gentiles are being saved which is the same period the greater "part" of "Israel" as a nation remains in blindness but only remains in blindness "UNTIL" the last gentile be come in.

Therefore, if the phrase "Israel of God" in Galatians does include both Jew and Gentile believers it is a secondary use and metaphorical during this period when the literal elect "Israel of God" is being TEMPORARILY shelfed as "the enemies of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKES but as TOUCHING ELECTION they are beloved for the father's sake" as "all Israel" shall be saved at Christ's return in keeping with the literal promise to the literal "father's ACCORDING TO ELECTION.

Did you really just admit that "israel" could include gents??? Did you acquiesce and say that it could be taken metaphorically (better theologically) to refer to the elect i.e. the people of God?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Did you really just admit that "israel" could include gents??? Did you acquiesce and say that it could be taken metaphorically (better theologically) to refer to the elect i.e. the people of God?

No. I was simply being charitable and said IF that reference is to be interpreted after that fashion then it would be merely a secondary temporary metaporical expression during the temporary absence of the literal "Israel of God" (during the gentile period where Gentile elect and the remnant Jewish elect, thus combined as the present secondary metaphorical spiritual Israel) which is the only "elect" nation in contrast to "many nations" from which Abraham's seed is derived.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No. I was simply being charitable and said IF that reference is to be interpreted after that fashion then it would be merely a secondary temporary metaporical expression during the temporary absence of the literal "Israel of God" (during the gentile period where Gentile elect and the remnant Jewish elect, thus combined as the present secondary metaphorical spiritual Israel) which is the only "elect" nation in contrast to "many nations" from which Abraham's seed is derived.

Let me admit that Israel in the Old Testament holds a dual typology. It is a type of the total elect of God in all ages of which the total elect on earth at any given time represents. However, carnal Israel is also a type of the "elect ethnic Israel of God" that is saved when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Carnal Israel is a type of both spiritual realities without confusing the two different realities. Romans 9-11 deals with the ultimate application of salvation to National Israel as the antitype of the carnal Israel.

It is common for one thing to have dual applications. The temple is a type of salvation but also is a type of God and the individual believer. The preists were a type of the believer as well as Christ, etc.

 

[psalms109:31]

All of mankind has the knowledge of good and evil. It doesn't matter it all leads to death.

We through Adam choose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that we was told not to, over the tree of life and now it is hidden from us.

The tree of life has been there from the beginning and God choose Israel to be in it, cutting those out for unbelief until only a remnant remained who were meek and humble who trust in the Lord.

Hear is me a Gentile a dog, not His. Then I heard the Gospel of my salvation having believed, God included me with His remnant who were there from the beginning. God is also grafting back in children of Israel if they do not persist in their unbelief

I am nothing but a dog who begged at the masters table who calls me His child. I have not included myself when I believed He did, so we shouldn't think of ourselves more highly than we ought to.

God is not done with Israel, we should be a people who make them jealous

 

[J.D.]

Let me admit that Israel in the Old Testament holds a dual typology. It is a type of the total elect of God in all ages of which the total elect on earth at any given time represents. However, carnal Israel is also a type of the "elect ethnic Israel of God" that is saved when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Carnal Israel is a type of both spiritual realities without confusing the two different realities. Romans 9-11 deals with the ultimate application of salvation to National Israel as the antitype of the carnal Israel.

It is common for one thing to have dual applications. The temple is a type of salvation but also is a type of God and the individual believer. The preists were a type of the believer as well as Christ, etc.

Can a type have two or more anti-types? To put it in biblical language, can a shadow have more than one realization? In other words, what is the "real" that the shadow pointed to, the Church, or Future Believing Israel? Does scripture support a multiple fulfillment of "the promises" to the fathers?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Can a type have two or more anti-types? To put it in biblical language, can a shadow have more than one realization? In other words, what is the "real" that the shadow pointed to, the Church, or Future Believing Israel? Does scripture support a multiple fulfillment of "the promises" to the fathers?

Yes, just as in prophecy there is primary and secondary applications of a prophecy there are also primary and secondary applications of types. This can be easily seen in the common "priest" his position and clothing and work. There is a primary application to Christ but a secondary application to believers in Christ. The typology of the tabernacle is primarily of Christ but there are secondary applications to believes as "the house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Concerning Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The first "on them" refers to gentile believers, while the "upon the Israel of God" refers to Jewish beleivers, both which are justified without circumcision.