Is it EVER OK to lie?

[webdog]

Are you talking about deception as in not being completely forthcoming or are you talking of lying?

Some of your examples are of people not being forthcoming (or perhaps examples of inference rather than implication). Scripture is actually rich with warnings for people to hold their tongue and keep the peace, to exercise discretion, etc. Others examples that you offer, I admit, have been lies, but there is no justification in Scripture for the actual lie. But we disagree (probably in definition as well as in application) and so be it.

Is lying the only sin that is wrong or right depending on the situation (are there examples of other sins that fit into this category)?

dishonesty, deception, misdirection, whatever you want to call it is the same thing...not being honest, aka, lying. Anything can be wrong or right depending on the context like eating, drinking, working, sex with your spouse, etc. the heart determines sin.

 

[JonC]

dishonesty, deception, misdirection, whatever you want to call it is the same thing...not being honest, aka, lying. Anything can be wrong or right depending on the context like eating, drinking, working, sex with your spouse, etc. the heart determines sin.

“The heart determines sin.” Interesting statement.

Instead of rationalizing whether or not something is forthcoming enough to be true, or not forthcoming enough to be a lie, let’s just keep it simple. I can provide many testimonies from Scripture that lying is a sin against God period (statements that say God hates a lie, or commanding us not to lie, or commanding us not to bear false witness, etc.). Can you provide one passage that tells us specifically that it is OK to lie or “bear false witness” if our heart is right?

 

[Deacon]

Can you provide one passage that tells us specifically that it is OK to lie or “bear false witness” if our heart is right?

“So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and let the boys live?” The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife can get to them.” So God was good to the midwives, and the people multiplied, and became very mighty. Because the midwives feared God, He established households for them.” (Exodus 1:18–21, NASB95)

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

if the bible says God cannot lie...then how could Jesus have told a lie? do you deny the Deity of Christ?

I honestly, have a hard time believing it is ever right to tell a lie, and I pray that I will never have to be tempted to give a "righteous lie"

 

[JonC]

“So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and let the boys live?” The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife can get to them.” So God was good to the midwives, and the people multiplied, and became very mighty. Because the midwives feared God, He established households for them.” (Exodus 1:18–21, NASB95)

We’ve already looked at that passage, Deacon. Do you think that God was good to the midwives because they lied or because they feared God and disobeyed Pharaoh (they disobeyed and saved the children - they lied to Pharaoh when he asked why they did not obey him)?

I understand why it would be appropriate for believers to conceal Jews from the Natzi's in WWII. I understand the logic in not telling all there is to tell, and in disobeying men in order to obey God. But we have to be careful to make sure that we are defining terms so as not to contradict Scripture. You cannot affirm Scripture and say that it is OK to lie if your heart is in the right place. In the end this is denying Scripture. Perhaps the term depends on the context...I don't know...but to answer the OP with a resounding "yes! It is OK to lie sometimes" is to deny Scripture.

 

[Deacon]

I pray that I will never have to be tempted to give a "righteous lie"

Me too.
The midwives had a terrible dilemma; tell the King of Egypt that they would not obey him, face his wrath and have someone else kill the baby boys OR deceive him, allow the babies to live and trust that God would honor their decision.

They were motivated to lie by their fear of God (Ex 1:21).

I pray I will never have to make that decision or any other like it
but God often works great wonders in impossible situations.

Rob

 

[blackbird]

"Did those who hid Jews from the Nazis sin when they told the gestapo no one was hiding in the basement?" Reasonable question.....would you lie to protect them or say "I cannot tell a lie"?

The late, Corrie ten Boom wrote in her work that she and her older sister let it be known to her family that they would not hesitate to tell a lie to protect the Jews they were hiding

But their other sister, Nollie(who also was hiding Jews and underground workers at her resident in Holland)---let it be known to Corrie and Betsie that she would not LIE if the Gestapo questioned her of the Jews in hiding---that the Lord Jesus would bless with His protection---even when she told the truth

If you read the account given by Corrie----her sister Nollie and Nollie's family had made a secret hideaway underneath the flooring of the kitchen---the hatchway covered by the table and floor rug

Later----the Gestapo indeed raided Nollie's house----Nollie and her family were seated at the kitchen table---the Jews and underground workers were inches underneath the secret door under the kitchen table

The GESTAPO agent asked Nollie---WHERE ARE THE JEWS??

Nollie replies-----Why, they are right under this table!!----then she and her family burst into uncontrollable laughter

The agent begins to fume and fuss----and made the comment----I HAVE NO TIME FOR GAMES AND LAUGHTER, Mrs. Van Verden!!! And with that comment---he quickly turns away and walks outside the house and back into the staff car he rode in and drives away!!!

But couldn't the laughter be seen as a deception---which is a cloaked lie?? Just asking??

 

[matt wade]

Nollie replies-----Why, they are right under this table!!----then she and her family burst into uncontrollable laughter

The agent begins to fume and fuss----and made the comment----I HAVE NO TIME FOR GAMES AND LAUGHTER, Mrs. Van Verden!!! And with that comment---he quickly turns away and walks outside the house and back into the staff car he rode in and drives away!!!

But couldn't the laughter be seen as a deception---which is a cloaked lie?? Just asking??

Maybe the laughter was uncontrollable (as you stated) and was the protection they so sought from the Lord?

 

[Jedi Knight]

But couldn't the laughter be seen as a deception---which is a cloaked lie?? Just asking??

She was trying to have her cake and eat it too.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Did Elisha Lie? “This is not the way, nor is this the city. Follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom you seek” (2 Kings 6:19).

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Maybe the laughter was uncontrollable (as you stated) and was the protection they so sought from the Lord?

I believe this is likely.

There is no way that God would have us to ever lie.

If God cannot lie, and he is holy, then we should not lie because we are to be holy and a reflection of him.

Lying is sinful.

Woe unto them that call evil good and call good evil.

tread carefully on this topic.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Woe unto them that call evil good and call good evil.

tread carefully on this topic.

Tread lightly with your sword.

 

[padredurand]

Would you tell the truth if some bad guy with a gun broke into your house and ask if anyone else in here?

Smith, Wesson, Remington, Winchester, Stevens.... I am never alone.

 

[John of Japan]

I have scriptural cases in my Bible. Josh. 2; 6:22–25 Heb. 11:31

You have no doctrine. All you have are Bible stories which you have not proven to be authoritative in the sense that they explicitly allow lying as a righteous act. On the other hand, I have given solid Scripture commandments concerning lying. Care for some actual Bible teaching? (I could give literally dozens more passages.)

Pr 14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.

Pr 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Prov. 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (NOTE: Two of the seven things God hates are types of lies--JoJ).

1 Tim. 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[John of Japan]

Smith, Wesson, Remington, Winchester, Stevens.... I am never alone.

Great friends you have! :thumbs:

 

[John of Japan]

1. On the road to Emmaus he pretended as if he was going further knowing he was going to stay with the men for a while.

How do you know this? How do you know that Jesus simply did not change His mind? That is much more likely than the idea that He lied. You as an opponent of Calvinism should know that God can change His mind.

2. God called the hiding of the Israelite spies a righteous act. She lied to hide them, it's a fact.

Even if I agree with you that lying was part of the righteous act (I do not), it's a story, not any kind of mandate. You don't determine doctrine from a story, and all of your examples are simply stories. Give some solid doctrine that it is okay to lie.

3. I already touched on Samuel. Just because he ended up making a sacrifice it was NOT the reason for going. It would be like me stepping out the front door when a bill collector called and instructing my wife to tell them I "stepped out". The actual act doesn't negate the intent.

So apparently you know the very heart of God (that He did not really want a sacrifice) and the heart of Samuel (that he did not think the sacrifice to be important or special).

Regardless, do you think you can find actual teaching (as opposed to stories, which are for examples) that it is okay to lie? I say that there is no such teaching anywhere in the whole Bible. Where are your passages that say lying is okay?

4. Jonathan lied to his armour bearer about the location of his shot arrow as a signal to David.

No, sorry, that is not in the text, 1 Sam. 20. In fact, all Jonathan said was, "Is not the arrow beyond thee?" and that turned out to be a true statement, since in v. 38 it says, "And Jonathan's lad gathered up the arrows" meaning that Jonathan was correct as to where the arrows were since the boy found them.

5. David's answer to the high priest when on the run from Saul?

Enough examples to show deception is not always sinful.

Sure, that was a lie. But where does it say in the text that it was okay to lie, that David's lie was righteous? I'll answer. Nowhere!! Nor does it say in any of your other examples that God approved the lie as being righteous.

 

[Revmitchell]

On a side note, I am not a Calvinist, but I do not see a need for God to change His mind. An omniscient God would get it right the first time. The changing of a mind is for those who do not have perfect knowledge.

 

[John of Japan]

On a side note, I am not a Calvinist, but I do not see a need for God to change His mind. An omniscient God would get it right the first time. The changing of a mind is for those who do not have perfect knowledge.

Could Jesus as a human change His mind? It is certainly not a sin to do so.

 

[Revmitchell]

Could Jesus as a human change His mind? It is certainly not a sin to do so.

No it is not a sin. I never suggested it was.

 

[John of Japan]

No it is not a sin. I never suggested it was.

Didn't mean to imply you had.