Is it the sinner's fault that he will go to hell?

[Yeshua1]

MB...

Its just so clear in the scriptures isnt it? You just cant miss it.

I just cant understand how these dear ones can be so befuddled, regarding something so clear and scriptural

God will save ALL those whom he has chosen to be redeemed thru the Cross, and regardless where they live, what era born into, He will continue to accomplish them getting the Good news somehow/someway!

 

[kyredneck]

Are you saying it's possible for one to live a sinless life from the day of birth? Or age of accountability or whatever?

...Jesus spoke of persons who need no repentance, they must exist. No way would Jesus imply false doctrine.

...You actually believe there are those that have lived sinless lives....

I believe it because the scriptures and Jesus himself said it:

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

If 99% of mankind has no need of the Saviour, then why did Christ die?

You have to deal with the words of Jesus, not me. I am not the one who spoke of 99 just persons who need no repentance, Jesus did. Do you really think Jesus would speak of people who could not possibly exist?

Why would Jesus tell the ridiculous story (if Original Sin is true) of the elder son who never transgressed his father's commandment at any time? [emphasis kyr]

You never answered the question. If righteousness is of the law, then why did Christ die?

Fourth time I've asked this, are you ducking the question? Is it a maniacal obsession to stamp out the Doctrines of Grace that leads you to such great error, or is it your your aberrant, ungoverned mis-use of the scriptures that brings you to do such violence to the truth, or both? Maybe you're actually just a sophisticated troll of sorts that gets his jollies from making a mockery of the Christian faith.

 

[webdog]

You never answered the question. If righteousness is of the law, then why did Christ die?

Fourth time I've asked this, are you ducking the question? Is it a maniacal obsession to stamp out the Doctrines of Grace that leads you to such great error, or is it your your aberrant, ungoverned mis-use of the scriptures that brings you to do such violence to the truth, or both? Maybe you're actually just a sophisticated troll of sorts that gets his jollies from making a mockery of the Christian faith.

He died to appease God's wrath against sin.

 

[kyredneck]

Winman says there are those that are sinless thus needing no Saviour, i.e., righteousness is of the law. Using his whacky abuse of the scriptures 99% of mankind needs no repentance. Is he serious? He says he is. Is he getting his jollies from making a mockery of our faith? That's one thing I'd like to know.

 

[DHK]

I believe the scriptures are speaking of men, not babies and little children. Jesus never spoke evil of little children.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said we have to be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. Is Jesus telling us we need to become wicked little sinners? Nonsense.

The answer is yes. He is. Do you think He is lying, Winman? Are His words in vain? He is speaking about faith. When my children were small they would not go to anyone else but me and their mother. They instinctively put their faith in the ones that they knew would give them food, shelter, protection, etc. That is what your heavenly Father requires of you. Never mind the allures of the world and the attractions of sin. Put your faith in Him alone. He is the only one who can provide your every need. In that way you are to be like a little child.
Jesus did not speak for the good of his health; but for the good of yours.

The scriptures directly tell us that Jacob and Esau had done no evil while they were in their mother's womb.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Paul said Esau and Jacob had done no evil in their mother's womb. If they would have died, would they be sinners? NO.

And when they were born they did have a sin nature inherited by Adam.
Their eternal destiny is put in the hands of an all-merciful God.
As Abraham said:
"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"

You can believe Augustine and Calvin if you wish, the scriptures do not show babies and little children as sinners.

Scripture after scripture shows you wrong. We are born sinners. There is nothing that we can do to avoid that. It is part of the curse.

I believe that a child must mature and understand right from wrong (age of accountability). At this point, when a child knowingly and willingly sins, they spiritually die. This is exactly what Paul shows in Romans 7.

And when exactly is that point? Do you know? They are spiritually dead when they are born. Their eternal destiny is left up to God. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Trust God. You don't know all things.

Rom 7:7

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul is speaking of coming to know the law and sin in this passage. In verse 7 he tells us that he would have not known sin, but by the law.

In verse 9 he tells us he was alive once without the law. When he came to know and understand the law he was convicted of his sins and died.

He also said: I know that in me dwells no good thing.
It is sin that dwells in me.
Paul knew that he was a sinner from birth. You just happen to leave out those verses that point to that condition.

Paul thought the law would bring life, and if a man perfectly obeyed the law he would not perish. But sin took occasion by the law and slew him.

But it couldn't bring life. He had been spiritually dead all his life--from birth.

So Paul shows here when he matured and understood the law that he was convicted of his sins and spiritually died. But he was once ALIVE.

He was dead from birth. You cannot be born again twice.

Jesus shows the prodigal son was once alive.

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

When the prodigal son repented, Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. You cannot be alive again unless you were alive ONCE as Paul said in Romans 7:9.

The prodigal son was a son, but prodigal. He was lost, as in gone astray. He was not lost as in spiritually lost or eternally lost. What do you think the word "prodigal" means? He was already a son.

You guys can carry on and call me a heretic, whatever, the scriptures do not show that we are born dead in sin. In fact the scriptures show that we are born spiritually alive, but when we come to know the law we are convicted and spiritually die. When we repent and trust Jesus we are alive AGAIN.

As I said before, deal with it.

There is no scripture that shows we are born spiritually alive; you have not given one. I can give you plenty that show otherwise and have in other threads.
So deal with it.
Jeremiah 13:23

 

[webdog]

Winman says there are those that are sinless thus needing no Saviour, i.e., righteousness is of the law. Using his whacky abuse of the scriptures 99% of mankind needs no repentance. Is he serious? He says he is. Is he getting his jollies from making a mockery of our faith? That's one thing I'd like to know.

one can be sinful not having sinned. All creation is under the curse caused by sin, hence why it has been appointed unto man once to die. Things die due to the curse. Aborted fetuses die as their flesh is sinful...but...they are not sinners (what I believe Win man is alluding to ).

 

[kyredneck]

Read #182. Are you saying you hold to what Winman says he believes, that there are those that have lived sinless lives?

 

[webdog]

Read #182. Are you saying you hold to what Winman says he believes, that there are those that have lived sinless lives?

absolutely. Tell me what sin a fetus has committed. Sin is transgressing the law as defined by God and His word. I know all the Augustinian proof texts, so please spare me those. We were once dead in OUR sins and transgressions in which WE used to walk. That's what the bible teaches.

 

[Yeshua1]

absolutely. Tell me what sin a fetus has committed. Sin is transgressing the law as defined by God and His word. I know all the Augustinian proof texts, so please spare me those. We were once dead in OUR sins and transgressions in which WE used to walk. That's what the bible teaches.

Even with a new born baby, there is the sin nature in them inheited from the fall of Adam!

To avoid having a sin nature, one would have to be Virgin Born...

Any one ever other than jesus?

 

[webdog]

Even with a new born baby, there is the sin nature in them inheited from the fall of Adam!

To avoid having a sin nature, one would have to be Virgin Born...

Any one ever other than jesus?

non sequitur. A sin nature doesn't = guilt. Sinning = guilt. See Adam and every man since who has sinned.

 

[kyredneck]

absolutely. Tell me what sin a fetus has committed. Sin is transgressing the law as defined by God and His word. I know all the Augustinian proof texts, so please spare me those. We were once dead in OUR sins and transgressions in which WE used to walk. That's what the bible teaches.

Winman appears to be espousing some sort of 'sinless perfection' doctrine. He needs to step up and explain his contradictions himself.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman says there are those that are sinless thus needing no Saviour, i.e., righteousness is of the law. Using his whacky abuse of the scriptures 99% of mankind needs no repentance. Is he serious? He says he is. Is he getting his jollies from making a mockery of our faith? That's one thing I'd like to know.

:applause::thumbsup::applause:he makes it up as he goes.....:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

The answer is yes. He is. Do you think He is lying, Winman? Are His words in vain? He is speaking about faith. When my children were small they would not go to anyone else but me and their mother. They instinctively put their faith in the ones that they knew would give them food, shelter, protection, etc. That is what your heavenly Father requires of you. Never mind the allures of the world and the attractions of sin. Put your faith in Him alone. He is the only one who can provide your every need. In that way you are to be like a little child.
Jesus did not speak for the good of his health; but for the good of yours.

And when they were born they did have a sin nature inherited by Adam.
Their eternal destiny is put in the hands of an all-merciful God.
As Abraham said:
"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"

Scripture after scripture shows you wrong. We are born sinners. There is nothing that we can do to avoid that. It is part of the curse.

And when exactly is that point? Do you know? They are spiritually dead when they are born. Their eternal destiny is left up to God. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Trust God. You don't know all things.

He also said: I know that in me dwells no good thing.
It is sin that dwells in me.
Paul knew that he was a sinner from birth. You just happen to leave out those verses that point to that condition.

But it couldn't bring life. He had been spiritually dead all his life--from birth.

He was dead from birth. You cannot be born again twice.

The prodigal son was a son, but prodigal. He was lost, as in gone astray. He was not lost as in spiritually lost or eternally lost. What do you think the word "prodigal" means? He was already a son.

There is no scripture that shows we are born spiritually alive; you have not given one. I can give you plenty that show otherwise and have in other threads.
So deal with it.
Jeremiah 13:23

Good post DHK.
If i can go against you when I see error. iIcan go with you when you defend the historic faith.:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, I agree, it was a good rebuttal by DHK.

 

[Yeshua1]

non sequitur. A sin nature doesn't = guilt. Sinning = guilt. See Adam and every man since who has sinned.

God placed judgement upon the entire human race to come from Adam/Eve after Adam sinned though!

ALL are born estarnged from God, ALL under condemnation, for sin of Adam brought death to ALL, ALL who receive jesus get eternal life instead!

 

[webdog]

God placed judgement upon the entire human race to come from Adam/Eve after Adam sinned though!

ALL are born estarnged from God, ALL under condemnation, for sin of Adam brought death to ALL, ALL who receive jesus get eternal life instead!

Bible - It has been appointed unto man once to die.

Augustine - It has been appointed unto man twice to die.

Enough said.

 

[Winman]

one can be sinful not having sinned. All creation is under the curse caused by sin, hence why it has been appointed unto man once to die. Things die due to the curse. Aborted fetuses die as their flesh is sinful...but...they are not sinners (what I believe Win man is alluding to ).

It is certain because of Adam all men physically die. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were banned from the tree of life and chased out of the garden. Therefore all men physically die as a consequence of Adam's sin.

The flesh simply desires what it wants. Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. Sin is when we knowingly and willingly transgress one of God's commandments.

Eve was tempted by the forbidden fruit. It looked good for food, this is the lust of the flesh. It was pleasant to the eyes, this is the lust of the eyes. It was desired to make one wise, this is the pride of life. These are the lusts of the world described in order in 1 John 2:16, but Eve was not evil at this point, she was "very good" as God himself said in Gen 1:31.

If Eve would have walked away from the forbidden fruit she would have committed no sin. Temptation is not sin, and temptation is not a sin nature. Jesus was tempted just like us and he was not a sinner.

You folks can believe whatever you want, Jesus said we must be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. The scriptures tell us in Romans 9:11 that Jacob and Esau had done no evil. Little babies and children are not sinners.

 

[Winman]

God placed judgement upon the entire human race to come from Adam/Eve after Adam sinned though!

ALL are born estarnged from God, ALL under condemnation, for sin of Adam brought death to ALL, ALL who receive jesus get eternal life instead!

Wrong, and you have absolutely no scripture to support your error.

The scriptures clearly say every man dies for his own sin and that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The difference is that I show scripture that supports my position. Any truly honest person must admit that.

You folks that believe in Original Sin cannot show one scripture that says God imputes Adam's sin and a sin nature to all men. If you could, you would have showed it long ago.

 

[DHK]

Bible - It has been appointed unto man once to die.

Augustine - It has been appointed unto man twice to die.

Enough said.

It has been well said, and yet not enough said, and strongly enough said:

Born once; die twice.
Born twice; die once.

I hope you understand the quote.

 

[DHK]

Wrong, and you have absolutely no scripture to support your error.

The scriptures clearly say every man dies for his own sin and that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The difference is that I show scripture that supports my position. Any truly honest person must admit that.

Any honest person will admit that the verse you used (Ezek.18:20) is speaking about capital punishment, and has nothing to do with original sin or the Adamic nature whatsoever. You have taken the verse completely out of context.