Is it the sinner's fault that he will go to hell?

[webdog]

It has been well said, and yet not enough said, and strongly enough said:



I hope you understand the quote.

If it contradicts Scripture its not well said. It has been appointed unto man once to die. That is inspired, the quote is not.

 

[DHK]

If it contradicts Scripture its not well said. It has been appointed unto man once to die. That is inspired, the quote is not.

In the Bible death simply means separation.
One cannot isolate a verse from its context and then try to make it fit all the various contexts of the Bible. That is not good hermeneutics.

There is physical death.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Physical death is when the body is separated from the body.

There is spiritual death:
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Spiritual death is when the spirit is separated from God.

There is eternal death:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
When one is separated from God for all eternity it is eternal death.

There is the second death:
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Physical death, eternal death, the second death. When you take Scripture out of its context and ignore the rest of the Bible you end up with false doctrine.

 

[glazer1972]

I say it's Adam's fault.

 

[righteousdude2]

I Heard that Obama Blamed...

I say it's Adam's fault.

....Bush! :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

In the Bible death simply means separation.
One cannot isolate a verse from its context and then try to make it fit all the various contexts of the Bible. That is not good hermeneutics.

There is physical death.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Physical death is when the body is separated from the body.

There is spiritual death:
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Spiritual death is when the spirit is separated from God.

There is eternal death:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
When one is separated from God for all eternity it is eternal death.

There is the second death:
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Physical death, eternal death, the second death. When you take Scripture out of its context and ignore the rest of the Bible you end up with false doctrine.

None of that contradicts my point or the exegesis of the Scripture I provided. Appointed unto man ONCE to die. If men are created spiritually dead they have been appointed twice to die from conception, once physically and once spiritually (I realize death is separation)

 

[DHK]

None of that contradicts my point or the exegesis of the Scripture I provided. Appointed unto man ONCE to die. If men are created spiritually dead they have been appointed twice to die from conception, once physically and once spiritually (I realize death is separation)

Yes, it does contradict your exegesis. You are simply ignoring context. The verse is simply speaking of physical death, not any of the other "deaths" mentioned in the Bible that I have pointed out to you. There is more than one kind of "death," which makes your exegesis quite irrelevant.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, it does contradict your exegesis. You are simply ignoring context. The verse is simply speaking of physical death, not any of the other "deaths" mentioned in the Bible that I have pointed out to you. There is more than one kind of "death," which makes your exegesis quite irrelevant.

"Something" happened in the fall of Adam to affect entire Human race afterwards!

To see humanity as being in same state that he was, innocent before God, is to disregard all that Jesus and His Apostles said regarding sinners needing a saviour !

look at babies, almost as soon as born, start screaming for attention, showing their selfish side!

 

[Winman]

"Something" happened in the fall of Adam to affect entire Human race afterwards!

To see humanity as being in same state that he was, innocent before God, is to disregard all that Jesus and His Apostles said regarding sinners needing a saviour !

look at babies, almost as soon as born, start screaming for attention, showing their selfish side!

Actually, we know for a FACT that babies do not sin at all.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Jacob and Esau were very much alive in their mother's womb when God spoke to Rebecca. Paul tells us here that they had done no evil.

You absolutely contradict scripture when you say babies sin, the scriptures show us little babies cannot sin. A baby cannot possibly understand law, and without law sin is not imputed.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Paul shows us in Romans 7 that it was the law that showed him what sin is. He would have not known sin except for the law. Therefore he could not be guilty of breaking the law.

It was when Paul came to know the law that he was convicted of his sins and spiritually died.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul never said he was born dead in sin, he said he was alive without the law once, but when the law came he died. He said sin by the law slew him. You must be alive to die, you must be alive for someone to slay you.

You teach error.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, we know for a FACT that babies do not sin at all.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Jacob and Esau were very much alive in their mother's womb when God spoke to Rebecca. Paul tells us here that they had done no evil.

You absolutely contradict scripture when you say babies sin, the scriptures show us little babies cannot sin. A baby cannot possibly understand law, and without law sin is not imputed.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Paul shows us in Romans 7 that it was the law that showed him what sin is. He would have not known sin except for the law. Therefore he could not be guilty of breaking the law.

It was when Paul came to know the law that he was convicted of his sins and spiritually died.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul never said he was born dead in sin, he said he was alive without the law once, but when the law came he died. He said sin by the law slew him. You must be alive to die, you must be alive for someone to slay you.

You teach error.

We are born in a state of sin, and we prove that by willfully choosing to sin!

Children will push others out of way to get a toy, food, have you ever watched them get greedy and want their toy?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Actually, we know for a FACT that babies do not sin at all.


You teach error.

Some of us would beg to differ


What is the biblical evidence for original sin?

January 23, 2006 | by Matt Perman | Topic: Imputed & Original Sin

There are several lines of biblical evidence for the historic Christian doctrine that we are all born into the world with sinful natures, due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners

See attached....

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/what-is-the-biblical-evidence-for-original-sin

 

[Yeshua1]

Some of us would beg to differ


What is the biblical evidence for original sin?

January 23, 2006 | by Matt Perman | Topic: Imputed & Original Sin

There are several lines of biblical evidence for the historic Christian doctrine that we are all born into the world with sinful natures, due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners

See attached....

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/what-is-the-biblical-evidence-for-original-sin

IF there is no imputed/original sin, than we are all born innocent before god, until we choose to willfully reject Jesus , so why even preach/teach/witness to Him, doesn't that cause innocent people to become sinners by rejecting hHim?

 

[DHK]

IF there is no imputed/original sin, than we are all born innocent before god, until we choose to willfully reject Jesus , so why even preach/teach/witness to Him, doesn't that cause innocent people to become sinners by rejecting hHim?

If there was no imputed sin to Abraham (for example), then there could be no imputed righteousness, as the Bible declares there was.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Sin was imputed unto him, that at a later date righteous could be imputed unto him.
For as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, so that all have sinned.
What does that teach? It does not teach that we will eventually sin because of our own responsibility to our own actions. It teaches that we will sin because we have a sin nature inherited from Adam which eventually results in death. What results in death. We arrive at death because we have a sin nature that works decay and degeneration under the Second Law of Thermodynamics instituted at the Fall wherein every individual inherits by birth a sin nature.

For that matter so does all of nature. No one or thing escapes the natural process of decay and destruction that begins at "birth," including your brand new car.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[webdog]

Yes, it does contradict your exegesis. You are simply ignoring context. The verse is simply speaking of physical death, not any of the other "deaths" mentioned in the Bible that I have pointed out to you. There is more than one kind of "death," which makes your exegesis quite irrelevant.

actually with your inclusion of that passage only dealing with physical death you are committting eisegesis. Each person comes into this world appointed to die once. Fact. If Augustine is correct that verse is in error...in context. Only salvation would remove the second death, but fact is he would have been created (appointed) to die twice.

 

[Winman]

For as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, so that all have sinned.
What does that teach? It does not teach that we will eventually sin because of our own responsibility to our own actions. It teaches that we will sin because we have a sin nature inherited from Adam which eventually results in death. What results in death. We arrive at death because we have a sin nature that works decay and degeneration under the Second Law of Thermodynamics instituted at the Fall wherein every individual inherits by birth a sin nature.

You misquoted the verse!

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You misquoted the very part of this verse responsible for Augustine's error. Augustine used a Latin text that said "in whom" all have sinned, which he interpreted to mean Adam. This is where the doctrine of Original Sin came from!

Nearly all scholars admit this Latin text was error and that the verse should say "for that" or "because" all have sinned, meaning that death has passed upon all men because all men have personally sinned.

You make the same error as Augustine!

 

[Yeshua1]

You misquoted the verse!

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You misquoted the very part of this verse responsible for Augustine's error. Augustine used a Latin text that said "in whom" all have sinned, which he interpreted to mean Adam. This is where the doctrine of Original Sin came from!

Nearly all scholars admit this Latin text was error and that the verse should say "for that" or "because" all have sinned, meaning that death has passed upon all men because all men have personally sinned.

You make the same error as Augustine!

No, for the fall of Adam brought to ALL Humans afterwards judgement of condemnation/guilt, as we are sinners, who chose to sin, that is due to our very natures?

if no sin nature when born, why do we still sin?

if no sin nature, why did jesus HAVE to come Virgin Born, conceived of Holy Spirit, why not get born same as anyone else?

 

[Winman]

No, for the fall of Adam brought to ALL Humans afterwards judgement of condemnation/guilt, as we are sinners, who chose to sin, that is due to our very natures?

if no sin nature when born, why do we still sin?

if no sin nature, why did jesus HAVE to come Virgin Born, conceived of Holy Spirit, why not get born same as anyone else?

I can't wait till you get banned again, I hope for good. You add nothing to the debate, you simply make STUPID comments without any scriptural support. There should be a rule against making meaningless inane statements.

Now, if you showed scripture to support your views, that would be different, but you never do. You are just a watchdog for the Reformed/Calvinist, just a cheerleader, but your head is empty.

 

[jbh28]

I can't wait till you get banned again, I hope for good. You add nothing to the debate, you simply make STUPID comments without any scriptural support. There should be a rule against making meaningless inane statements.

Now, if you showed scripture to support your views, that would be different, but you never do. You are just a watchdog for the Reformed/Calvinist, just a cheerleader, but your head is empty.

Pot meet kettle.....

Let's see, this post had no Scriptural support. Its not in the spirit one should be posting. Why would you want him banned? His name was banned for using another name. You say his comments are "STUPID."

If there was a rule "against making meaningless inane statements." then your post would be a fine example.

Really your post should be deleted as it's just an attack on a brother in Christ. Shame on you.

 

[righteousdude2]

Dhk....

You misquoted the verse!

....it's time to hit the books [Hebrew and Greek] and pay closer attention the next time you attend class :laugh:

 

[quantumfaith]

If there was no imputed sin to Abraham (for example), then there could be no imputed righteousness, as the Bible declares there was.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Sin was imputed unto him, that at a later date righteous could be imputed unto him.
For as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, so that all have sinned.
What does that teach? It does not teach that we will eventually sin because of our own responsibility to our own actions. It teaches that we will sin because we have a sin nature inherited from Adam which eventually results in death. What results in death. We arrive at death because we have a sin nature that works decay and degeneration under the Second Law of Thermodynamics instituted at the Fall wherein every individual inherits by birth a sin nature.

For that matter so does all of nature. No one or thing escapes the natural process of decay and destruction that begins at "birth," including your brand new car.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

DHK you may be correct on on your initial statement ( I am not half the theologian that most here are), but from a mathematical perspective converse statements are not necessarily true.

If p, then q does not necessitate If q, then p.

Example: Differentiability of a function at a point implies continuity at that point, but continuity at a point does not imply differentiability at that point.

Second note: "I believe" the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) began at the instant of creation, before the advent of the creation of mankind.

Not trying to be snarky, notice I did not use any of the Personal attack monikers.

 

[DHK]

DHK you may be correct on on your initial statement ( I am not half the theologian that most here are), but from a mathematical perspective converse statements are not necessarily true.

If p, then q does not necessitate If q, then p.

Example: Differentiability of a function at a point implies continuity at that point, but continuity at a point does not imply differentiability at that point.

Second note: "I believe" the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) began at the instant of creation, before the advent of the creation of mankind.

Not trying to be snarky, notice I did not use any of the Personal attack monikers.

Romans 7:8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. (ASV)
Apart from the law there is no sin. However, right from the creation of Adam and Eve there has been law. Adam disobeyed law and brought sin into the world.

"Sin wrought in me" It was already there. It was there from birth. And every manner or all kinds of coveting.

(ESV) But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.
--Any parent knows that even small children are very covetous and selfish at a very early age. It is within our very nature. It is the most common sin of mankind.

Thus in this case I believe the Math is correct.
Sin has been imputed; righteousness needs to be imputed.