for our friend here...
HOW many will be justified before God by works of the Law, in the flesh, apart from Christ?
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Is it the sinner's fault that he will go to hell?
- Thread starter IAMWEAK_2007
- Start date
for our friend here...
HOW many will be justified before God by works of the Law, in the flesh, apart from Christ?
I believe the scriptures are speaking of men, not babies and little children. Jesus never spoke evil of little children.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said we have to be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. Is Jesus telling us we need to become wicked little sinners? Nonsense.
The scriptures directly tell us that Jacob and Esau had done no evil while they were in their mother's womb.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Paul said Esau and Jacob had done no evil in their mother's womb. If they would have died, would they be sinners? NO.
You can believe Augustine and Calvin if you wish, the scriptures do not show babies and little children as sinners.
I believe that a child must mature and understand right from wrong (age of accountability). At this point, when a child knowingly and willingly sins, they spiritually die. This is exactly what Paul shows in Romans 7.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Paul is speaking of coming to know the law and sin in this passage. In verse 7 he tells us that he would have not known sin, but by the law.
In verse 9 he tells us he was alive once without the law. When he came to know and understand the law he was convicted of his sins and died.
Paul thought the law would bring life, and if a man perfectly obeyed the law he would not perish. But sin took occasion by the law and slew him.
So Paul shows here when he matured and understood the law that he was convicted of his sins and spiritually died. But he was once ALIVE.
Jesus shows the prodigal son was once alive.
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
When the prodigal son repented, Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. You cannot be alive again unless you were alive ONCE as Paul said in Romans 7:9.
You guys can carry on and call me a heretic, whatever, the scriptures do not show that we are born dead in sin. In fact the scriptures show that we are born spiritually alive, but when we come to know the law we are convicted and spiritually die. When we repent and trust Jesus we are alive AGAIN.
As I said before, deal with it.
But that is exactly what many here teach, that we are conceived dead in sin, not because of anything we have done, but because of Adam.
This is because Augustine used a flawed Latin text that said "in whom" in Rom 5:12 which he understood to mean Adam. Nearly all scholars admit this Latin text is error and that the verse should read "for that" or "because" all have sinned, showing that all men spiritually die for their own personal sin.
Once you get this wrong, you will completely misinterpret the rest of Romans 5. Paul had already shown in Romans 2 that men without the law perish without the law because they are a law unto themselves. Paul does not even mention Adam here.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
So Paul has already explained in chapter 2 how men without the law perish- not because of Adam, but because they have the law written on their hearts and are a law unto themselves.
So it is completely nonsensical to believe that in Romans 5 Paul would say men without the law from Adam to Moses died for Adam's sin.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
And what of men after Moses, why do they die? If you believe Paul is teaching that men die because of Adam, then you must believe this only applied from Adam to Moses as Paul said.
Ridiculous.
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I am neither a theologian nor educated in Latin. Were it Swedish, German, or Russian, maybe I could speak on the subject with more knowledge. This I do know, however: my sin is mine, I am guilty, and the debt I owe for my guilt was paid by my Saviour.
Exactly right.....Id ignore the pecker-wood yellin fire in the theater :laugh:.
EWF- You certainly have a colorful way with words! :laugh: Hope you and Mrs EWF are well.
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Jesus was referencing the kind of faith/child like/required to go to heaven trusting in him as Saviour, just as children do their fathers...
used kids as teaching lesson, did NOT say kids were not sinners!
ALL are guilty before God due to fall, that is just fact!
used kids as teaching lesson, did NOT say kids were not sinners!
ALL are guilty before God due to fall, that is just fact!
If so, why does He send an angel to proclaim the gospel? Why didn't he use a man on the road to Damascus?
Baloney, Jesus said we must be CONVERTED and BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN to enter heaven. In other words, children are not lost.
Jesus also said that children's angels do always behold his Father's face in heaven. Does God put guardian angels over sinners?
Paul said he was ALIVE until the commandment came. He did not say he was born dead in sin.
What is fact is that you do not know what you are talking about.
You never answered the question. If righteousness is of the law, then why did Christ die?
If he sends an angel we need him too.
But he has said in no uncertain terms that he has given THE CHURCH gifted people for our edification.
So if you are in the church....
...here it is...
YOU NEED THEM.
Alive in Christ
New Member
It absolutly is the sinners fault if they are lost. Every person who has lived is without excuse.
They have heard the gosple,or, if not, enough general revelation (Light) to be saved The choice is thiers.
Praise God, for His loving kindness and mercy, as He gives the oportunity to be saved to ALL.
They have heard the gosple,or, if not, enough general revelation (Light) to be saved The choice is thiers.
Praise God, for His loving kindness and mercy, as He gives the oportunity to be saved to ALL.
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Still trying to play only one string on your banjo..aic???:laugh:
Alive in Christ
New Member
Nope. All the strings on it. I am a scripture guy. I heed Gods message rather than the message of a mere man named calvin.
Acording to Gods scriptures, God has made provision for ALL. He does not "play favorites". He has no robots.
The whosoever wills go to the place they have chosen
And tragically, the whosoever wonts will go to where they have chosen
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Children are saved due to God making provision for their sinfulness by the Cross, as ALL persons are sinners !
Children saved are NOT due to them being innocent , but that God chose to redeem them by grace thru Cross of Christ, aopplying towards them "saving Grace" to cover them!
And jesus again used them as examples of how we need to be in attitude and belief towards God, NOT that kids are saved!
That is true, but a seperate discussion point!
I'm not talking about equipping believers, I'm talking about acceptance of the Gospel. First you said men are needed to proclaim the Gospel and disagreed that God can use any means He wants. Now you are saying angels are needed, essentially agreeing with me that God will use whatever means He desires. Where is the disagreement?
In the remotest part of the world where there is no preacher preaching the truth there is still no excuse for not knowing the Savior and being saved by Him. Scripture tells us this;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
MB
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
MB