Is it the sinner's fault that he will go to hell?

[Winman]

I don't completely agree. While teachers are a God given and beneficial tool, the epitome of arrogance is saying we NEED them over the Spirit within...man relying on man.

Not only that, the scriptures say we do not need anyone to teach us.

1 Jhn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If you ask me, Luke's biggest problem is he believes whatever he is taught, he does not go by what the scriptures say. If he did, he would not be a Calvinist.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't completely agree. While teachers are a God given and beneficial tool, the epitome of arrogance is saying we NEED them over the Spirit within...man relying on man.

We need them. Nobody said "over anything".

We NEED them.

The Bible is clear on this.

To deny this is the epitome of arrogance.

 

[Luke2427]

...tons of souls standing before the great throne of judgment blaming everything, everybody, and even God for their going to eternal damnation.

And while their blood may be on their hands, I am sure that by way of my own failure to witness as I should, or live as I should, there will be blood on my hands.

But, I can't begin to believe that God would be a fault for anyones being lost and banished to hell.

After all, He is God. :thumbsup:

I agree with the blood on our hands.

I don't agree with the implication that God clears himself of guilt by giving everybody a shot.

He can make people to destroy them if he so chooses and he is beyond question from sinful mortals on what he does and why he does it.

He cannot be blamed for the same reason an ant can't call an elephant to give account- because the ant simply cannot. He is too small. He is even too ignorant to even begin to know HOW.

 

[Alive in Christ]

From Proverbs 24...

...and in the multitude of counselers there is safety

 

[righteousdude2]

Well.

I agree with the blood on our hands.

I don't agree with the implication that God clears himself of guilt by giving everybody a shot.

He can make people to destroy them if he so chooses and he is beyond question from sinful mortals on what he does and why he does it.

He cannot be blamed for the same reason an ant can't call an elephant to give account- because the ant simply cannot. He is too small. He is even too ignorant to even begin to know HOW.

...that is your opinion [one which I'm quite sure you've thought long and hard about], and I'm sure you and God can discuss this in length when you get to eternity.

Until then, who am I to question God's motives? He created mankind for His pleasure.

I like the following explanation of why God created mankind [borrowed from and shared from - http://www.gotquestions.org/why-did-God-create-us.html]:


The short answer to the question “why did God create us?” is “for His pleasure.” Revelation 4:11says, “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” Colossians 1:16 reiterates the point: “All things were created by him and for him.” Being created for God’s pleasure does not mean humanity was made to entertain God or provide Him with amusement. God is a creative Being, and it gives Him pleasure to create. God is a personal Being, and it gives Him pleasure to have other beings He can have a genuine relationship with.

Being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), human beings have the ability to know God and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him, and fellowship with Him. God did not create human beings because He needed them. As God, He needs nothing. In all eternity past, He felt no loneliness, so He was not looking for a “friend.” He loves us, but this is not the same as needing us. If we had never existed, God would still be God—the unchanging One (Malachi 3:6). The I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. When He made the universe, He did what pleased Himself, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. “It was very good” (Genesis 1:31).

Also, God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. Logically, He could not do so. If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the one true God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The LORD is God; besides him there is no other” (Deuteronomy 4:35). Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. The thing made can never be greater than, or as great as, the One who made it.

Recognizing the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, we are amazed that He would take man and crown him “with glory and honor” (Psalm 8:5) and that He would condescend to call us “friends” (John 15:14-15). Why did God create us? God created us for His pleasure and so that we, as His creation, would have the pleasure of knowing Him.

Maybe when it comes to the Bible and God I'm just too trusting and child like in faith, but I believe that when God created us, He was truly "pleased!" So in that way, I can side with Pontius Pilate and say, I find no fault in HIM!

I just can't buy the explanation that God sits around and crushes people like ants with His big thumb without making sure they first understood who it was that was about to crush them. Look at Noah. Everyone around had to have heard about the Ark. After all, they had a great many years [around 120 of them] to hear and probably see what he was doing, and they had time to get to know Noah''s God, if they wanted to know Him, that is. The Bible says they went right on living like they always lived. That is sad!

 

[saturneptune]

...I just can't buy the explanation that God sits around and crushes people like ants with His big thumb without making sure they first understood who it was that was about to crush them. Look at Noah. Everyone around had to have heard about the Ark. After all, they had a great many years [around 120 of them] to hear and probably see what he was doing, and they had time to get to know Noah''s God, if they wanted to know Him, that is. The Bible says they went right on living like they always lived. That is sad!

Hi Pastor Paul, hoping you had a good day. I would like to ask a question concerning your example of Noah. Since the flood was world wide, how did those living outside the immediate area of the ark hear about it?

I do agree, it is especially sad those who did observe the ark, went right on living the same way. Hope your services go well today.

 

[Winman]

Also, God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. Logically, He could not do so. If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the one true God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The LORD is God; besides him there is no other” (Deuteronomy 4:35). Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. The thing made can never be greater than, or as great as, the One who made it.

I agree with this, and this is what I have said all along. Sin is necessary, it cannot be avoided, because all of God's creation by necessity must be inferior to him. God cannot create himself for several reasons. First, God is not a created being. But also, God is perfect. God cannot create absolute perfection because that belongs to God only. If we were absolutely perfect, we would be God. This is impossible.

So, if God had a desire to create us for his pleasure, by necessity he must endure imperfection.

I also believe that God cannot enslave our wills, as God is perfectly holy and moral. He must by his nature allow us to make choices which necessarily allows for sin. The only sure way to avoid sin would be not to create us, or to kill us before we have a chance to sin. If God desires our companionship, this is not possible.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Jesus said offences "must needs be". They are necessary, they cannot be avoided. That said, Jesus clearly shows that sin originates in the man himself, and not from God.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree with this, and this is what I have said all along. Sin is necessary, it cannot be avoided, because all of God's creation by necessity must be inferior to him.

So what about these two thirds of angels that did NOT fall and have not fallen now for thousands, if not millions of years and who all signs point to the fact that they will NEVER fall for all of eternity.

This idea that God cannot create a being that will never sin is asinine philosophically, theologically and without merit exegetically.

I also believe that God cannot enslave our wills, as God is perfectly holy and moral. He must by his nature allow us to make choices which necessarily allows for sin. The only sure way to avoid sin would be not to create us, or to kill us before we have a chance to sin. If God desires our companionship, this is not possible.

Utterly ridiculous.

You couldn't even get the most RABID Arminian to agree with such nonsense.

God DOES enslave the will of man all through the Bible.

Even the most ARDENT Arminian recognizes that God does it to people at least temporarily throughout the Bible.

 

[HAMel]

I have a hard time with the usage of the word fault.

It seems like we're always assigning fault & blame. Liberals are experts at pointing the finger of fault at others and I suppose it's habit forming.

So what would be another appropriate word? A sinner who never comes to the Lord has turned his eternity over to his own devices? Fails to trust? Fails to recognize his condition? None are so blind as those who refuse to see?

I don't know..., just ramblings I suppose. One thing for sure though is when someone ends up lost and undone and on their way to an eternity of torment..., it's a tragic event.

Another thing for sure is if the Lord had not called me with that big knuckle punch on my heart back in 1972 I'd be on the road to destruction myself.

...Praise the Lord for his love toward us.

 

[Winman]

So what about these two thirds of angels that did NOT fall and have not fallen now for thousands, if not millions of years and who all signs point to the fact that they will NEVER fall for all of eternity.

You assume they are perfect, that is not necessarily true. In fact, the scriptures show us error in heaven.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

John mistakenly worshiped an angel or fellow believer in heaven. I don't think John sinned here, but he absolutely made a mistake in heaven. There is more...

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Why are the leaves of the tree of life necessary for HEALING in heaven? If everything is perfect in heaven, there would be no need for healing.

So, this view that everything is absolutely perfect in heaven may not be so. Men may still be able to commit errors or to be injured or even become ill, but there will still be grace, forgiveness and healing.

This idea that God cannot create a being that will never sin is asinine philosophically, theologically and without merit exegetically.

Utterly ridiculous.

You couldn't even get the most RABID Arminian to agree with such nonsense.

God DOES enslave the will of man all through the Bible.

Even the most ARDENT Arminian recognizes that God does it to people at least temporarily throughout the Bible.

If you cannot figure out that only God is absolutely perfect, nothing I could say would help you.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Winman...

I also believe that God cannot enslave our wills, as God is perfectly holy and moral. He must by his nature allow us to make choices which necessarily allows for sin. The only sure way to avoid sin would be not to create us, or to kill us before we have a chance to sin. If God desires our companionship, this is not possible.

Well said. Excellant

What a wonderful God and Father we have. Praise Him forever more! :godisgood:

 

[Winman]

Winman...

Well said. Excellant

What a wonderful Father we have. Praise Him forever more! :godisgood:

Thanks. I will admit that I have one presupposition, that God is perfectly holy, and that there is no darkness in him whatsoever. God does not tempt men to sin, he does not mislead, trick, deceive...

Almost all men instinctively know it is wrong to enslave another person. We fight wars over freedom, it is the most precious thing we have. I do not believe God would ever enslave the will of any person. Would he influence them for good? Of course, just as we would influence our children to do good. But we do not force them once they are grown and able to make their own decisions.

Calvinism to it's credit has a very BIG view of God. God is supreme, God is sovereign. This is all true, but they exaggerate God's power and sovereignty over his holiness and goodness. God tells us what love is in the scriptures, and God lives by his own rules, he is not a hypocrite.

Calvinism believes because God is God he can just push people around. God certainly has this power and ability, but it is not God's nature to treat people like this. God respects a person's right to make their own choices, even if it happens to be a poor choice. Calvinism cannot seem to grasp this.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Here is somthing good I came across...

A merciful and compassionate God is not able to look down on a lost and sinful world and decide to give salvation to some in order to show how gracious he is, and to send some to hell in order to show how just he is. God is not a stoic unfeeling being. He has a loving and compassionate heart that breaks for his prodigal sons and daughters. Jesus told us that when we see him, we see the Father. And when Jesus saw the crowds coming to be healed, he saw them as lost sheep, and his compassion moved him to teach and heal them. This is our God!

God’s will is not sovereign because it is without any limitations, but because it is not limited by anything other than himself. God’s sovereign will does not decide when God will be gracious and loving, his character determines that. His love is what motivates and moves his will. Grace is not something he gives out like loaves of bread, grace is what moves him. A God who can choose to give compassion to some and not to others is not unjust, he is unloving. The disciple’s conscience does not object to Calvinism because it portrays a God that is unjust or unfair, but because it proclaims that God is not genuinely loving. In Calvinism, God’s eternal purpose is not motivated by his love and compassion towards all men, instead his saving love and compassion is only given to certain individuals in order to fulfill his mysterious purpose. His will is not moved by his character, but his character is determined by his will. This is the reason that Calvinism ultimately admits that God’s reasons for giving salvation to this one, and leaving others in their sins to perish, is a mystery. It is not based on God’s revealed character, but on a inexplicable plan. They paint God as a divine and powerful will that cannot be held to any standard of righteousness; not even if that standard of righteousness is the righteousness of the great I AM!

Imagine a loving man walking by a building and seeing a dozen of people who have spread lies about him, abused his family and cursed his name, trapped inside. Most people would not assume that the man is obligated to risk his life to try and save these evil people. But the man’s conscience might. Compassion might compel him to run into danger to save his enemies. If he dragged one or two of the people out to safety, everyone would call him a compassionate hero and be willing to praise him on the evening news. But, even then the man’s conscience might shout, “You can save more!” No one would call him unjust for not running back into the burning building, but his conscience, informed by love and compassion, might accuse him until his dying day of being unloving and selfish.

This illustration reveals one of the conceptual errors of Calvinism. The Calvinist is trying to defend the justice of God against the accusation of unfairness. There is no need to do that. Every informed disciple’s conscience understands that God has the right and authority to do whatever he sees fit in regards to judging mankind. God is not obligated to save anyone! Calvinism’s error is found in its misunderstanding of the loving character of God.

 

[webdog]

We need them. Nobody said "over anything".

We NEED them.

The Bible is clear on this.

To deny this is the epitome of arrogance.

this is contradictory. If its a need, its over everything. This is like saying God could not pull a Saul conversion again if he wanted to.

 

[Luke2427]

You assume they are perfect, that is not necessarily true. In fact, the scriptures show us error in heaven.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

John mistakenly worshiped an angel or fellow believer in heaven. I don't think John sinned here, but he absolutely made a mistake in heaven. There is more...

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Why are the leaves of the tree of life necessary for HEALING in heaven? If everything is perfect in heaven, there would be no need for healing.

So, this view that everything is absolutely perfect in heaven may not be so. Men may still be able to commit errors or to be injured or even become ill, but there will still be grace, forgiveness and healing.



If you cannot figure out that only God is absolutely perfect, nothing I could say would help you.

So heaven will be full of sinners forever right?

And not just people who WERE sinners but people who still sin forever- right?

 

[Luke2427]

this is contradictory. If its a need, its over everything. This is like saying God could not pull a Saul conversion again if he wanted to.

That's not true.

Needs are hierarchical.

I need food, water and shelter.

I don't need shelter as much as I need food and water.

I don't need food and shelter as much as I need water.

 

[Winman]

So heaven will be full of sinners forever right?

And not just people who WERE sinners but people who still sin forever- right?

I just showed you scripture where John mistakenly worshiped either an angel or fellow believer in heaven. Is that error?

I showed you scripture that says the leaves of the tree of life are for the healing of the nations. Why would we need healing if everything was absolutely perfect in heaven?

You are so smart, tell me.

Christians aren't supposed to mumble or complain, but we see believers complaining in heaven.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

We are told to be patient, we are told not to mumble or complain, but these believers complained in heaven, they were impatient.

Tell me [snipped] does this sound like absolute perfection?

 

[webdog]

That's not true.

Needs are hierarchical.

I need food, water and shelter.

I don't need shelter as much as I need food and water.

I don't need food and shelter as much as I need water.

that proves my point, you "need" man, meaning the Holy Spirit is not sufficient apart from man. This clearly places man over Him.

 

[Berean]

Paul states in Romans 3:11 KJV ...........There is none that seeketh after God. The Bible teaches that God seeks man, not man seeks God. And no one responds or seeks God until the Holy Spirit calls or "draws" him. This is what the Bible teaches.

 

[Luke2427]

that proves my point, you "need" man, meaning the Holy Spirit is not sufficient apart from man. This clearly places man over Him.

All Christians "need man" BECAUSE the Holy Spirit has PURPOSED to USE men.