Is it the sinner's fault that he will go to hell?

[saturneptune]

It is good to see you brother displaying your faith with confidence :thumbsup:

But what would you say to the Semi Pelagian or full Pelagian who tells you he just does not believe in Radical Depravity, Regeneration & Preservation---isn't that a deal braker right there?

Very good post.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Im sorry brother ....I was not describing you directly (perhaps my post was poorly worded) Rather I was attempting to make it a general statement.

I apologize if it appeared to attack you personally....not my intention.

No problem at all, friend. :wavey:

Be at peace

 

[webdog]

....didn't mean to start another "rift!" I just felt bad about the running battle Icon, and I had on another posted topic earlier this month, and had to say, after reading this exchange of words, I no longer feel bad about our exchange, because at least it didn't resort to the colorful [inappropriate] words, I've seen being tossed around on this post.

Forgive me for opening up more pain. I wasn't meaning to poke fun, just let Icon know that at least he and I don't resort to this kind of verbal warfare.

Certainly, and WD and Icon will verify this as truth, I am not on their teams in any way. They are always disagreeing with me, and Icon and I have had some kncok down, drag out fights, but nothing ever came close to this. I am surprised the mods haven't taken action, as I was hit with infractions for referring to someone last year having an "intelligent rearend [to sit on]."

you're not on my team in any way? What does that mean? I'm a believer, I would hope that makes us teammates. Maybe its time for me to leave this sight as I'm not sure who's a sheep and who's a wolf.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is good to see you brother displaying your faith with confidence :thumbsup:

But what would you say to the Semi Pelagian or full Pelagian who tells you he just does not believe in Radical Depravity, Regeneration & Preservation---isn't that a deal braker right there?

Would say that it depends on IF that person had a coherent biblical approach to get those beliefs, as would still see tham as being wrong, but at least not sue to just holding to "God not fair/we are robots/born innocent/still have real and full free will"


Hvae they come to their beliefs/conclusion due to a careful study of the word, or just "calvinism not true, just take other side of that!"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

you're not on my team in any way? What does that mean? I'm a believer, I would hope that makes us teammates. Maybe its time for me to leave this sight as I'm not sure who's a sheep and who's a wolf.

Here is my question to you webdog......why do any of us have to be sheep's or wolves? Why cant we both lean on our own understanding of Scripture without getting upset with the other understanding of theirs? you know I can accept that you believe your biblical interpretation is correct but I cant accept when I am berated for my understanding......that is what doesnt wash. OK I can even take a look at your understanding & put it through an intense study to see if I dont have the proper grasp of things......but when the pejoratives start, then I am no longer objective.....Im sure its that way with you.

If we are to compete, lets do it on something like who does the better job of bringing Christ to the community & who does a better job of taking care of Widows & orphans.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I no longer feel bad about our exchange, because at least it didn't resort to the colorful [inappropriate] words, I've seen being tossed around on this post.

Oh Dude, somebody was just having a bad day yesterday.....I've been there myself & have reacted inappropriately. We all need to recognize it & cut the guy some slack. Im sure he will take it to God & evaluate the situation accordingly....after all we are all human & all prone to sin and error as we all still carry around with us these stinking bodies in this realm. It is up to us as followers of Christ to forgive & welcome back into the fold a brother.

 

[Winman]

here is the theology of the Bible regarding this!

All of us as seen by God as either being in Adam, sinners, or else in Christ, saints!

God judged/comdemned ALL thru fall of Adam, as Adam was our representative before god, as all humns were in Him to be coming forward...

head of sinners

Jesus is head of saints, their representative, same testing came to him and he passed, and he represents us the saints before God!

I disagree with this. The term "in Adam" is used ONCE in all of scripture, and is not speaking of being condemned, or even being a sinner, but is speaking of physically dying.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Does this verse say all men are dead in Adam? NO, it says all men will die (future tense). You must be alive to die. A rock cannot die, because it was never alive. This verse actually REFUTES your view, but you are not able to comprehend that.

You throw "in Adam" around like it is said 50 times in scripture, it is not, this is the one and only mention of it in all scripture, and this chapter is speaking only of PHYSICAL death, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians concerns the resurrection of our physical bodies.

Much scripture shows man is born ALIVE.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Does Paul say he was born dead in sin? NO, Paul says he was alive until the commandment came. He had just said that it was the law that taught him what sin is, so this is what he is speaking of, being made aware of what sin is, and that he is guilty of sin. It was when the commandment came and he understood sin that he was convicted and spiritually died.

Did Jesus say a man is born dead in sin? No.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

When the prodigal son repented, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. You can't be alive again unless you were first alive ONCE as Paul said in Rom 7:9.

You folks just keep on believing the false doctrine of Augustine and ignore what the scriptures really say. None of you has a clue.

 

[saturneptune]

You folks just keep on believing the false doctrine of Augustine and ignore what the scriptures really say. None of you has a clue.

I have to give credit where credit is due. That was a good post for your side. Personally, I think of myself as outside the box in the Calvin-free will debate. Believe it or not, your comments about the prodigal son are food for thought.

 

[Luke2427]

I have to give credit where credit is due. That was a good post for your side. Personally, I think of myself as outside the box in the Calvin-free will debate. Believe it or not, your comments about the prodigal son are food for thought.

No its not.

There is no greater arrogance on earth than that that abides in the breast of a man who thinks he needs no man to help him understand the Scriptures because God speaks to him.

I submit that those who believe that sit way atop of the pinnacle of arrogance.

Winman believes it as much as anyone I have ever seen.

 

[saturneptune]

No its not.

There is no greater arrogance on earth than that that abides in the breast of a man who thinks he needs no man to help him understand the Scriptures because God speaks to him.

I submit that those who believe that sit way atop of the pinnacle of arrogance.

Winman believes it as much as anyone I have ever seen.

I do not believe I ever said I agreed. I said it was food for thought. I was deeply involved in Calvinism long before you were born.

 

[Winman]

I have to give credit where credit is due. That was a good post for your side. Personally, I think of myself as outside the box in the Calvin-free will debate. Believe it or not, your comments about the prodigal son are food for thought.

Thank you, and also thank God that somebody out there knows I am not some wild heretic throwing nonsense around. But I warn you, once you see this you can never go back. You will be HATED and DESPISED for the truth.

The scriptures do not show us born dead in sin, separated from God. The scriptures show us as God's sheep who go astray from the flock and become dead and lost. When we repent, we are RETURNED to Christ, we are ALIVE AGAIN.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now

 

[kyredneck]

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry....

So where does the elder son fit into this:

"....Lo, these many years do I serve thee, and I never transgressed a commandment of thine...."

Did he not die?

 

[saturneptune]

So where does the elder son fit into this:

"....Lo, these many years do I serve thee, and I never transgressed a commandment of thine...."

Did he not die?

I do not know. I did not attend the funeral

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do not believe I ever said I agreed. I said it was food for thought. I was deeply involved in Calvinism long before you were born.

Then have you studied Calvin's Institutes & also Westminster Confessions? Just curious how far you went with it (PCA correct?) If it was OPC you would have....even Calvin's Golden Books! LOL

 

[Winman]

So where does the elder son fit into this:

"....Lo, these many years do I serve thee, and I never transgressed a commandment of thine...."

Did he not die?

No, he did not die SPIRITUALLY. Look at what Jesus said. That is important, Jesus knows doctrine perfectly.

Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Note from the beginning that Jesus said the father had TWO sons. So, neither were lost.

Note that the elder son said that he never transgressed his father's commandment at any time.

Did the father correct the elder son and call him a self-righteous hypocrite? NO, the father actually verified that what he said was true. He called him "Son" a term never said of lost sinners, he said that he was "EVER WITH ME", that is, he was never separated by sin from his father, and ALL that he had was his. He also did not say that the elder son was ever dead or lost like his brother the prodigal.

This elder son was NEVER lost. He NEVER sinned EVER. How can this be?

If Original Sin were true, this would be impossible, but this is exactly what Jesus told us, and Jesus would not mislead us on doctrine.

The only person this could be is a child who died before the could commit sin. Is there scripture to support this? YES.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Had Jacob and Esau sinned while they were in their mother's womb? NO. If they had died, would they have died in sin? NO. They would be like this elder brother who never transgressed at any time his father's commandment.

The scriptures clearly say and show that little children have committed no sin. If they died, they would be like the elder brother described by Jesus in Luke 15.

In fact, look at the first two parables in this chapter. How many sheep did the shepherd originally have? ONE HUNDRED. One went out and became lost, the shepherd searched and recovered it. But originally it was not lost.

How about the woman, how many silver pieces did she have? TEN. One became lost, she searched and recovered it. But originally it was not lost.

Jesus did not teach Original Sin for those who simply read the scriptures without letting themselves be deceived by false doctrine.

Read and see for yourself. If you want to know the truth, you will.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Bob, I dismiss anything Presbyterian & refuse to be called a Calvinist because of their refusal to focus.....rather they have long ago stopped evaluating the scriptures because they have formulated a theology that they sell the world is IRON CLAD. Now with that said, a Baptist is a baptist because they thoroughly review & debate the interpretation of scriptures in an effort to understand.. I would also say that a good measurement for anyone wanting to radically evaluate your beliefs & how far you have come is to measure yourself against a Roman Catholic. How far are you removed from catholic dogma? Only you can answer that question by constant evaluation of your understanding of scripture.

For the most part I agree with you.

 

[kyredneck]

No, he did not die SPIRITUALLY. Look at what Jesus said. That is important, Jesus knows doctrine perfectly.

Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Note from the beginning that Jesus said the father had TWO sons. So, neither were lost.

Note that the elder son said that he never transgressed his father's commandment at any time.

Did the father correct the elder son and call him a self-righteous hypocrite? NO, the father actually verified that what he said was true. He called him "Son" a term never said of lost sinners, he said that he was "EVER WITH ME", that is, he was never separated by sin from his father, and ALL that he had was his. He also did not say that the elder son was ever dead or lost like his brother the prodigal.

This elder son was NEVER lost. He NEVER sinned EVER. How can this be?

If Original Sin were true, this would be impossible, but this is exactly what Jesus told us, and Jesus would not mislead us on doctrine.

The only person this could be is a child who died before the could commit sin. Is there scripture to support this? YES.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Had Jacob and Esau sinned while they were in their mother's womb? NO. If they had died, would they have died in sin? NO. They would be like this elder brother who never transgressed at any time his father's commandment.

The scriptures clearly say and show that little children have committed no sin. If they died, they would be like the elder brother described by Jesus in Luke 15.

In fact, look at the first two parables in this chapter. How many sheep did the shepherd originally have? ONE HUNDRED. One went out and became lost, the shepherd searched and recovered it. But originally it was not lost.

How about the woman, how many silver pieces did she have? TEN. One became lost, she searched and recovered it. But originally it was not lost.

Jesus did not teach Original Sin for those who simply read the scriptures without letting themselves be deceived by false doctrine.

Read and see for yourself. If you want to know the truth, you will.

Are you saying it's possible for one to live a sinless life from the day of birth? Or age of accountability or whatever?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have to give credit where credit is due. That was a good post for your side. Personally, I think of myself as outside the box in the Calvin-free will debate. Believe it or not, your comments about the prodigal son are food for thought.

SN, if you are in an unregenerate state, you are spiritually dead right!

 

[Luke2427]

I do not believe I ever said I agreed. I said it was food for thought. I was deeply involved in Calvinism long before you were born.

What does that have to do with anything?

Does that make you more knowledgeable than those who have been Calvinists for less years?

What advantage do you think this is?

 

[saturneptune]

What does that have to do with anything?

Does that make you more knowledgeable than those who have been Calvinists for less years?

What advantage do you think this is?

This is what I think. I think that posts that respond to my posts in a civil manner result in an exchange of ideas, unlike Iconoclast.