OK, if not saints who have died, then who are the people the Bible calls "the dead in Christ"?
The dead in Christ are those who have died physically, yet live with Him in heaven. Notice the operative word “live”. They are certainly more alive than you or I.
Context, my Catholic friend, context. One is relational, the other positional.
Again… interperative my JW friend. How does it feel?
...However, we can see from what is written in scripture that those things that are not written in scripture will not contradict those things that are written in scripture
I never said that it does. And the fact that God allows us to be heard by the saints does not contradict scripture either. Let me ask you this… do you believe that only God can hear us (I.e. that mere creatures cannot?) Is that your position?
Then tell me how my "interpretation" is wrong, particularly since I haven't interpreted anything…
Well, if the position that you are espousing (I.e. that saints are dead to us) is not your interpretation, then it is most certainly someone’s interpretation - and one with which you obviously agree.
and then explain to us why your interpretation is the correct one.
Gladly! It is correct because it is based on scripture.
Matt 22:31-32 - And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? He is God not of the dead, but of the living.’
The holy people (Saints) who have gone before us are more alive than we are. As this verse says, God is the God of the living, not the dead; it makes it clear in naming Abraham, Isaac & Jacob as being alive.
Matt 17:1-3 – “Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them up a high mountain, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.
Departed Saints like Moses & Elijah are again pictured intensely interested in earthly affairs. We are all in Christ - alive in Him as a community of believers.
Mark 12:26-27 - And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the story about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.’
The Saints in heaven are more alive and aware of what’s going on than we are. They are not separated from the Body of Christ, but more united to it and therefore more united to us. Their love for us is now unblemished, and through their love of God they desire God’s blessing for us.
Luke 20:36-38 - Indeed they cannot die any more, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection. And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.’
Hmmm… those who die in the Lord “Cannot die . . they are equal to angels.... But that the dead are raised. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live in Him.” When we die on earth, we are dead to the physical, but alive in Christ. The Saints are alive in the Spirit of Christ.
Matt 27:50-53 – “Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.”
Here Jesus calls on the Saints that were already dead in a loud voice and they appeared to many on earth. We see that Saints CAN communicate with those physically alive through Jesus Christ. It is not impossible.
Luke 15:10 - In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Angels in heaven (not on earth) can hear those that repent their sins. Hmmm… The Angels can hear us but the Saints cannot?
Jeremiah 31:15-16 – “Thus says the Lord: A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more. Thus says the Lord: Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for there is a reward for your work, says the Lord: they shall come back from the land of the enemy; “
Rachel intercedes for her children (Israel). This is years after Rachel's death, and the text says her “voice was heard” and her prayers were answered. Pretty clear actually.
Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”
Hmmm. I wonder who that “great cloud of witnesses” could be? Notice the word “cloud”… It’s the same cloud spoken of in the transfiguration where Jesus called Elijah and Moses back to Earth.
Yet none of this can happen because, in your theology, they’re all dead!
Please show me the specific part of that passage where it says that dead saints can hear our prayers and that we are to pray to them.
I did already. If you take everything in context with Revelation 5:8, it should be abundantly clear. Here it is again:
Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people."
These are creatures (as are we, the Angels, and Saints) who – through the power of God – are holding bowls containing the prayers of God’s people. There you have it!
How about Stephen? Is he dead?
Physically? Yes! Yet his spirit lives eternally.
Actually, I do know that. But just as all pickup trucks are automobiles, but not all automobiles are pickup trucks, so all prayer is a form of worship, even if it is not always supplication.
I pray thee tell…
Who are those people the Bible refers to as "the dead in Christ"?
See the above missive...
Because I am not and rcc apologist. I am only defending my positions
...which just happen by an amazing coincidence to be the same as Roman Catholic positions, even to the point that you use Roman Catholic arguments ver batem.
Well then… if they agree with me, then they must be correct on those points! Seriously, why not quote my entire statement. I’ve already written that if by chance my beliefs align with the rcc, that is of no concern to me. And while we’re on the subject – neither is your opinion of it.
...I just think it's a little misleading to choose a name that implies that you have a reformed background.
Hog wash! You have no idea why I chose that moniker. Perhaps I was born in Westminster Vermont. Or perhaps that’s my dog’s name. Why not act like an adult and drop the puritanical, self righteous schoolmarm attitude.
WM
