is Roman catholism Regarded as a Cult/False Gospel/ Gospel + Works/True Gospel?

[Priscilla Ann]

Catholics do not consider their Catechism as "official" teaching. It is instructional in their eyes, but not "official." That comes from the top down only. I've been in debates with Catholics on this issue and have been burned by referring to their own Catechism.

At the end of the day, attempting to pin down a Catholic on ANY point of dogma or doctrine is most difficult as they have "Sacred Tradition" to counter any propositional argument that comes their way, except what is spoken "ex cathedra" by the pontiff, and then subject to interpretation by ST once again. A most frustrating experience... Makes arguing with some of the off-kilt Baptists on this board like child's play in comparison, though there are similarities, especially when dealing with Webdob, Robert Snow, MB, Van, and a few others around here that make up stuff as they go.

"Sacred Tradition" seems to be the justification for any Catholic teaching that can't be supported by scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nada.



So there you go. Eight posts and not only did you not answer the question, there was no mention of the WSC at all.

So not only are you a fool, but a liar as well.

And now, as the Bible instructs us not to argue with fools, goodbye.

Yes, scripture says much about it, but lets see what the Master says about it:

Matt 5:22

22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

 

[glfredrick]

"Sacred Tradition" seems to be the justification for any Catholic teaching that can't be supported by scripture.

That has been my impression...

 

[Alive in Christ]

veneration and worship are two different things. Veneration = honor; worship is reserved for God alone. Do you honor your father and mother?

That is the ridiculous, nonsensical gobbledegoop that Catholics think we will fall for, in their silly attempt to justify their goddess worship

 

[WestminsterMan]

OK. Here is every one of your posts to me since I asked you yesterday:



No answer.



Nothing there.



Still no answer.



Nothing there, either.



As usual, no answer.

Go slow... take a deep breath... and re-read posts #74 and #77. If there is a question of yours that I didn't answer, then ask it again. Further, I asked you a few questions that have apparently sent you to ground. A little reciprocity would be nice.

WM

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Yes, scripture says much about it, but lets see what the Master says about it:

Matt 5:22

22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Actually, the Bible calls people fools on many occasions. Jesus' point was the intent behind the word, not the word, itself.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Nada.



So there you go. Eight posts and not only did you not answer the question, there was no mention of the WSC at all.

So not only are you a fool, but a liar as well.

And now, as the Bible instructs us not to argue with fools, goodbye.

And there you have it ladies and gentleman... if you can't handle a rational debate simply call the opposition names, claim victory, and run away. Notice how he avoided several questions that I put to him, all the while claiming that I didn't answer HIS question.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

That is the ridiculous, nonsensical gobbledegoop that Catholics think we will fall for, in their silly attempt to justify their goddess worship

I believe that "gobbledegoop" is called dulia, hyperdulia, and latria. That's them big Ol' Greek words that them Catholics use.

Just FYI...

WM

 

[DHK]

I believe that "gobbledegoop" is called dulia, hyperdulia, and latria. That's them big Ol' Greek words that them Catholics use.

Just FYI...

WM

Here's some information about the terms in question.

Latria
–noun Roman Catholic Theology .
the supreme worship, which may be offered to god only.
Origin:
1350–1400; Middle English < Medieval Latin < Greek latreía service, worship, akin to látris hired servant; see -ia

dulia
–noun Roman Catholic Theology .
veneration and invocation given to saints as the servants of god.
Origin:
1605–15; < Medieval Latin dūlīa service, work done < Greek douleía slavery, equivalent to doûl ( os ) slave + -eia -y3

hyperdulia
–noun Roman Catholic Theology .
the veneration offered to the Virgin Mary as the most exalted of creatures.
Origin:
1520–30; < Medieval Latin; see hyper-, dulia

venerate
–verb (used with object), -at·ed, -at·ing.
to regard or treat with reverence; revere.
Origin:
1615–25; < Latin venerātus, past participle of venerārī to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere, verbal derivative of vener-, stem of venus, presumably in its original sense “desire”; see Venus)

worship
reverent honor and homage paid to god or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

http://dictionary.reference.com/

http://dictionary.reference.com/


Note that latria is worship, while both dulia and hyperdulia are considered veneration. This is pure semantics on the part of the RCC. It doesn't change the fact that both are synonyms for worship as far as the Bible is considered.

The definition of veneration is worship, which comes from its origin as given above. The definition of worship is homage paid to a god. The words are the same in meaning. The artificial differences given by the RCC is a false dichotomy to give an excuse to the world that they can say that they are not committing idolatry, when in fact they do. Every time they "venerate" or worship Mary or any of the saints it is worship or idolatry. It is a transgression of the Ten commandments. The fine distinction made by the RCC is made only by them, not by others. We don't go by their definitions, but rather by Biblical definitions.



The word worship or worshipped is found over 170 times in the Bible.

The word venerate or veneration is not even found once.



The reason: Venerate is a Latin word. The NT was written in Greek. Venerate is a synonym for worship used in the Latin language.

 

[DHK]

The dead in Christ are those who have died physically, yet live with Him in heaven. Notice the operative word “live”. They are certainly more alive than you or I.

First, unless you are God you wouldn't know that. The RCC theology sends people to Hell, not to heaven. They don't believe in salvation by grace through faith (the message of salvation), but rather the accursed message of salvation through works--a message that can only send a person to hell.
At a Catholic funeral I heard a priest trying to "pray a deceased person" into heaven. What a pitiful scene. She had already died, and as far as her life and beliefs were concerned was already in hell. The priest could not do anything about it. Her family went to the cemetery. Some prayed to her. They prayed to the dead. They prayed as those who have no hope. Some prayed: "I hope you are in heaven..." And some: "I know you are looking down from heaven...," but in reality they didn't have that assurance. They indeed prayed to the dead.

Why? Because a person separated from God is in an eternal state of eternal death. That is what death is: separation from God. And someday they will stand before God and meet their final sentence: The Second Death.
Yes, they pray to the dead.

I never said that it does. And the fact that God allows us to be heard by the saints does not contradict scripture either. Let me ask you this… do you believe that only God can hear us (I.e. that mere creatures cannot?) Is that your position?

How foolish is this statement. Where in the Bible does it indicate that God allows us to be heard by the "saints" in heaven? Scripture please. This is your imagination speaking. God alone is omniscient. God alone knows our hearts, thoughts, and prayers. No one else can claim that ability. You are putting those in heaven on the same pedestal as God, and that is blasphemous.

Well, if the position that you are espousing (I.e. that saints are dead to us) is not your interpretation, then it is most certainly someone’s interpretation - and one with which you obviously agree.

If the "saints" are not dead, then why do we have cemeteries? Why the burial grounds? Why do people go and visit their loved ones that are already "dead and gone." The answer is that they are "dead", not alive. Do not people in your extended family die?

Matt 22:31-32 - And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? He is God not of the dead, but of the living.’

The Scripture quoted assumes that there are dead, doesn't it. Most Catholics fall into that realm for they don't have a clue what the gospel is, and they have never believed it.
As far as the living are concerned, the resurrection has not yet taken place.

The holy people (Saints) who have gone before us are more alive than we are. As this verse says, God is the God of the living, not the dead; it makes it clear in naming Abraham, Isaac & Jacob as being alive.

And yet Isaac was only comforted after his mother's death when he married. Why was that? His mother had died. She still is dead. He will not meet his mother until the resurrection. There is something that you are missing here.

Matt 17:1-3 – “Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them up a high mountain, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

Departed Saints like Moses & Elijah are again pictured intensely interested in earthly affairs.

This was a supernatural event that will never be repeated again. Note that even Christ was changed at that time. We surmise therefore that as Christ was changed back into his former self, so too were Elijah and Moses. We have no reason to believe otherwise. As Christ at that time did not have his glorified resurrected body, neither did Moses. There are things about that event you obviously don't understand.

We are all in Christ - alive in Him as a community of believers.

No, all are not alive in Christ. Are you a universalist? Most Catholics are not alive in Christ. All the ones I talk to are dead in Christ. They don't have a clue what it means to be saved, and I have talked to hundreds.

Mark 12:26-27 - And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the story about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.’

Alzheimer's? You quoted that verse already.

The Saints in heaven are more alive and aware of what’s going on than we are. They are not separated from the Body of Christ, but more united to it and therefore more united to us. Their love for us is now unblemished, and through their love of God they desire God’s blessing for us.

Again, give Scripture for this thought that comes from your imagination, or in reality, the imagination of the RCC.

Luke 20:36-38 - Indeed they cannot die any more, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection. And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.’

Psalm 8 tells us that we are created lower than the angels. So you are wrong on this point. Neither are the angels "the children of God," as we are. Read John 1:12 and perhaps you will understand that. "The fact that the dead are raised," you say. The dead have not been raised. You are a very confused man.

Hmmm… those who die in the Lord “Cannot die . . they are equal to angels.

For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. (Psalms 8:5)
--Get your facts straight.

... But that the dead are raised.

The dead are not raised.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live in Him.” When we die on earth, we are dead to the physical, but alive in Christ. The Saints are alive in the Spirit of Christ.

What do you see in a cemetery. The grave stones remain undisturbed. The dead still lie dead.

 

[DHK]

Matt 27:50-53 – “Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

Here Jesus calls on the Saints that were already dead in a loud voice and they appeared to many on earth. We see that Saints CAN communicate with those physically alive through Jesus Christ. It is not impossible.

You do err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God.
Read the account again. When did the dead rise again. Compare the different gospel accounts. What happened to them after they arose? Why is Jesus called the first-fruits of the resurrection? Where does it say that Jesus called on the saints that were already dead in a loud voice? That is a fable, a made up story. You are reading into Scripture things that are not there.
Nowhere does it say that we can communicate with those that are physically alive through Christ. Nowhere does it say that there are any that are physically alive with Christ. You do err not knowing the Scriptures.

Luke 15:10 - In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Angels in heaven (not on earth) can hear those that repent their sins. Hmmm… The Angels can hear us but the Saints cannot?

Man is made lower than the angels. We also don't know the "how" they know.

Jeremiah 31:15-16 – “Thus says the Lord: A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more. Thus says the Lord: Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for there is a reward for your work, says the Lord: they shall come back from the land of the enemy; “

Rachel intercedes for her children (Israel). This is years after Rachel's death, and the text says her “voice was heard” and her prayers were answered. Pretty clear actually.

The only thing that is clear here is that you don't have a clue what this passage means. Furthermore you have just demonstrated your ignorance to every Bible-believing Christian that reads this board. They are now laughing at you. I pity you. To be fair, it is a prophetic passage. I leave it to you to find out what it means.

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”

Hmmm. I wonder who that “great cloud of witnesses” could be? Notice the word “cloud”… It’s the same cloud spoken of in the transfiguration where Jesus called Elijah and Moses back to Earth.

No, it isn't. Most of us know what it means. But those who lack knowledge in the word of God don't and they make a fool of themselves when they post on the board.

Yet none of this can happen because, in your theology, they’re all dead!

Have you ever counted how many survivors are in the closest cemetery to your house?

I did already. If you take everything in context with Revelation 5:8, it should be abundantly clear. Here it is again:

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people."

These are creatures (as are we, the Angels, and Saints) who – through the power of God – are holding bowls containing the prayers of God’s people. There you have it!

Have what? A heavenly scene; quite symbolic of angels, "beasts," elders, and others that are representative of those on earth. And what do they hold? Bowls! Bowls, I repeat again. Bowls!!!!! Don't get away from that fact.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

First, unless you are God you wouldn't know that.

Not only that, but according to his religion's own teachings, he has no way of knowing who is and isn't in Heaven.

They don't believe in salvation by grace through faith (the message of salvation), but rather the accursed message of salvation through works--a message that can only send a person to hell.

Well, they believe in grace, but you have to work for the opportunity to receive grace and that grace can be taken away from you at any time.

At a Catholic funeral I heard a priest trying to "pray a deceased person" into heaven. What a pitiful scene. She had already died, and as far as her life and beliefs were concerned was already in hell.

This is one of the things I've often thought was odd about Catholicism. A person dies and Jesus' blood was insufficient to cleanse every sin, so they go to Purgatory. Now, Catholicism teaches that they're there to expiate their own sins but the problem is that living Catholics can pray a dead Catholic out of Purgatory. I get it. It's an extension of the old indulgence nonsense. But why don't they ever bother to ask whether or not the person has expiated all of their sins yet? What if they pray them out of Purgatory but they still have sin? By Catholic logic, God would have no choice but to send the person to Hell. Catholics are literally praying people out of Purgatory and into Hell.

How foolish is this statement. Where in the Bible does it indicate that God allows us to be heard by the "saints" in heaven? Scripture please. This is your imagination speaking.

His answer is Rev 8:5, but that verse says nothing about them hearing our prayers and certainly nothing about us praying to them.

If the "saints" are not dead, then why do we have cemeteries? Why the burial grounds? Why do people go and visit their loved ones that are already "dead and gone." The answer is that they are "dead", not alive. Do not people in your extended family die?

You can persue this if you want to but if you do, go and get the Tylenol now.

 

[webdog]

Yes, scripture says much about it, but lets see what the Master says about it:

Matt 5:22

22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Scripture and the Master never contradict each other.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Scripture and the Master never contradict each other.

Nobodys arguing that, so as per the Masters testimony then.

 

[Matt Black]

"Sacred Tradition" seems to be the justification for any Catholic teaching that can't be supported by scripture.

Not so in the beginning at least: to the Early Church Fathers, Tradition explained and correctly interpreted Scripture. We could do with some of their wisdom today, to counteract the plethora of contradictory interpretations we see today, even on this thread, under the guise of so-called 'soul liberty'.

 

[Matt Black]

And there you have it ladies and gentleman... if you can't handle a rational debate simply call the opposition names, claim victory, and run away. Notice how he avoided several questions that I put to him, all the while claiming that I didn't answer HIS question.

WM

JDF has form for this kind of ad hominem nonsense.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

JDF has form for this kind of ad hominem nonsense.

I'm sorry that you feel following Biblical instruction not to argue with fools (the Bible's word for them, by the way, not mine) is "ad hominem nonsense" but I guess that would explain a lot.

This is Laodic...er, I mean BaptistBoard, after all.

 

[Matt Black]

In what way is calling someone a liar not ad hominem?

 

[WestminsterMan]

You do err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God.
Read the account again.

OK…

Matt 27:50-53 – “Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

When did the dead rise again.

At the moment Jesus breathed His last. That much is clear.

Where does it say that Jesus called on the saints that were already dead in a loud voice? That is a fable, a made up story. You are reading into Scripture things that are not there.

It doesn’t say that “..Jesus called on the saints that were already dead with a loud voice…”. That is what you are saying.

What it does say is that “…Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last.” Then the passage gives us a sequence of events connected to his death. Here’s how it reads.

At that moment [the moment of His death] the:
1) Temple was torn in two from top to bottom
2) Earth shook
3) Rocks were split
4) Tombs were opened and many bodies who had fallen asleep [died] were raised

Next:

After His resurrection [Jesus] they [those who were raised] came out of the tombs…

I think the scripture is quite clear.

Nowhere does it say that we can communicate with those that are physically alive through Christ. Nowhere does it say that there are any that are physically alive with Christ. You do err not knowing the Scriptures.

I didn’t say they were “physically” alive with Christ. I said that they were united with Christ in Heaven. That is not a physical existence, but a spiritual one.

Luke 15:10 - In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Angels in heaven (not on earth) can hear those that repent their sins.

Hmmm… The Angels can hear us but the Saints cannot?

Man is made lower than the angels. We also don't know the "how" they know.

And this is you basis for refutation – that “Man is made lower than the angels”? Man is made lower than the angles in his earthly existence. This is frivolous logic DHK. All that has to be shown as a commonality is the capacity to intercede. The saints in heaven do not need to have all of the characteristics of angels to do that.

Besides…

"Do you not know that the saints [i.e. Christians] will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!…Shun immorality" (1 Cor. 6:2-18).

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”

Hmmm. I wonder who that “great cloud of witnesses” could be? Notice the word “cloud”… It’s the same cloud spoken of in the transfiguration where Jesus called Elijah and Moses back to Earth.

...Most of us know what it means.

Well then - let’s see what a few Greek scholars have to say about the passage…

Marvin Vincent
“[T]he idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principle idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he is addressing are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith…watched the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid” (Vincent, IV, 536).

A.T. Robertson
“’Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturum) … The metaphor refers to the great amphitheater with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2, 4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11” (Robertson , V, 432)

DHK, your theology won’t let you see what is right in front of you.

But those who lack knowledge in the word of God don't and they make a fool of themselves when they post on the board.

And hurling insults at others isn’t foolish behavior DHK? Nice.

Have you ever counted how many survivors are in the closest cemetery to your house?

The last time I checked, the spirits of the physically dead aren’t in the ground. The worm that never dies DHK.

I did already. If you take everything in context with Revelation 5:8, it should be abundantly clear. Here it is again:

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people."

These are creatures (as are we, the Angels, and Saints) who – through the power of God – are holding bowls containing the prayers of God’s people. There you have it!

Have what? A heavenly scene; quite symbolic of angels, "beasts," elders, and others that are representative of those on earth...

Symbolic…representative of those on Earth? If that were the case, then some people on Earth (those whom you say are represented by angels, "beasts," elders) would be offering the prayers of others on Earth to God. Patently ridiculous!

And what do they hold? Bowls! Bowls, I repeat again. Bowls!!!!! Don't get away from that fact.

Yes – bowls, bowls, bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Don’t get away from THAT fact.

In Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God.

Jeremiah 31:15-16 – “Thus says the Lord: A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more. Thus says the Lord: Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for there is a reward for your work, says the Lord: they shall come back from the land of the enemy; “

Rachel intercedes for her children (Israel). This is years after Rachel's death, and the text says her “voice was heard” and her prayers were answered. Pretty clear actually.

The only thing that is clear here is that you don't have a clue what this passage means.

Well I think that I do understand it. Yet, that’s not the only place in scripture depicting those who have passed on interceding for those on Earth.

Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Even in Abraham’s Bosom/Sheol the spirits of the dead could intercede for the living on Earth. How much more so can those saints in Heaven!

Furthermore you have just demonstrated your ignorance to every Bible-believing Christian that reads this board.

Perhaps…

They are now laughing at you.

I am impressed by your omniscience. “At whom do they now laugh Homunculus?”

WM

 

[Matt Black]

I would also like to see how the term 'Bible-believing Christian' is defined here; every Christian I have known believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God yet many would disagree with the likes of DHK. In what way then, is the 'Bible-believing' adjectival phrase relevant to the discussion? It sounds awfully similar to the phrase beloved of charismatic Christians: 'Spirit-filled Christian' (as if there are some Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit and some who are not!).