Is the GOSPEL a work of the Holy Spirit, or not?

[DHK]

And so again, you must conclude that the Gospel is not of the Holy Ghost.

The gospel and the Holy Spirit are different.
The gospel magnifies Christ and His Work.
No man can be saved without a knowledge of the gospel.
No man can be saved without faith in the gospel (after having understood it).
The Scriptures are inspired of the Holy Spirit, if that is what you mean.
The purpose of the Holy Spirit is clearly explained in John 16--to convict the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.

 

[righteousdude2]

Looks Like You Have Sunday Sermon Material

I have read this thread, and it seems more and more like a merry-go-round. I, for one, believe that faith is the gift of God, others do not. Those who do not quote Romans 10:17, but when they read it/quote it, they do not truly comprehend what that verse is really saying. It says that faith cometh by hearing the Word of God. Now, say that over and over 20 times, and maybe you'll grasp the context of that verse. Faith cometh by hearing what? A flute, pipe, harp, a great orator? No on all of these. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,etc.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


The Word of God mentioned in Roman 10:17 is more than the words a preacher says. It is preached in power, seasoned by God, if it is to take effect in one's salvation. The Word of God is a powerful sword, that cuts deep when it lands.

Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Now, here is the source where this sword comes from:

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.


James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

So, the Word that saves, engrafts people into the Vine, which is Jesus.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So, no, man does not in himself, have the faith to believe. It must be endowed/bestowed by the Father, to open the eyes of sinners to realize their lost condition.

I hope and pray that this doesn't come across as "scattered", because of the use of many verses.

Preach it brother!!! :thumbs:

 

[righteousdude2]

Woman, or Not, I Agree....

Amen!! I would say Preach it Sister mandym but you're a woman, and women can not preach

...you go girl, don't let something like your gender get in the way. Preach it like Peter and Paul!!! :applause:

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[Skandelon]

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This passage is neither obscure nor colored by its location in the text. This is a straightforward maxim and stands alone like any of the Proverbs. There is no confusing what is said here. There is no possibility of misunderstanding by any, saved or not.

But what the Noncalvinist cannot do is believe it, because it is foolishness to him. The only way you can get around it is to say that the preaching of the Gospel is not a work of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, it's because we affirm that the Gospel IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, that supports our view that the Gospel can be understood and believed by someone not yet regenerated.

When Paul said that spiritual matters must be discerned or made clear to us by the Spirit you all assume that he means there must be some secret inward working of the heart by which a man's mind and heart are supernaturally shifted to be able to understand and accept the words. That is CLEARLY not Paul's intent. We know this because the carnal believers in Corinth couldn't receive these things either.

He is talking about the "deep things of God" which are only revealed when God inspires someone (like Paul) and he writes it down for us to read it or hear it preached. By what other means does the Holy Spirit make known the inner truths of the Spirit of God?

He had already done this with the milk of the gospel truth, because the people he is addressing have already believed it. Paul is rebuking them because they won't listen to his teaching regarding the meat of the word, which as an apostle he has been given the charge to teach and record as scripture for us all to gain discernment.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, this puts you squarely in the Reformed camp. Now, if that is what you believe, fine, stand strong in your viewpoint.

But... the problem with this view is that you must believe that God does not truly want everyone to be saved. If men do not have faith in this view, it is because God did not give this gift to them. Therefore, God must want these persons to perish, otherwise he would simply give them faith. There is no way around this.

Cals/Ref love to accuse non-Cals of exalting man, nothing could be further from the truth. Non-Cals take full responsibility for their sins and a man perishing. If we go to hell, it is because we choose to reject Christ when we had the ability to accept him. It is not God's fault. Non-Cals are defending God, we are not exalting man.

In the Cal/Ref view you cannot escape the fact that God is ultimately responsible for men going to hell. You can't be 100% responsible for salvation AND 0% responsible for damnation. If the only person who can be saved is that man whom God elects and gives faith to, then those who perish are those God chose to pass over and not give faith to. There is no escape from this logical conclusion, though many try to rationalize this truth away.

It is true that faith is a gift in the sense that God presents the truth to man through the gospel. This is a powerful message of truth that can convict the hardest sinner of his sins and bring him to his knees. But the man must decide if the gospel is truth for himself.

Jn 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

This is the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery. These wicked men sought to entrap Jesus and brought her before him. But Jesus uttered the famous words,

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

This message pierced the hearts of these wicked men. Immediately, their own sins came to their mind and they quickly remembered how many times they had sinned against God. That is why they left beginning at the eldest, because the longer a man lives, the more he sins. So, the eldest were first deeply convicted of their own sinfulness and saw their hypocrisy.

But note they were convicted by "their own" conscience. The message was supernatural, but the conviction was quite natural. Men have the ability to be convicted, and men have the ability to believe, although no man can believe what he does not know.

The gospel is a supernatural message. It comes from God and is powerful truth. It can pierce the heart and conscience, and convict the hardest man of his sin and bring him to repentance. It can convince man of truth, so that he can believe the gospel and be saved.

But if you believe that faith is a gift, and not an ability that all men have, then you must conclude that God desires that men perish, otherwise he would give them the gift of faith. There is no way around this.

Bro. Winman,

That is why I do not really care for the titles "Arminian", or "Calvinist". I am in neither camp, but I side closer to the "A's" than the "C's". Now, when I state that faith is a gift of God, I do so by meaning that this is offered/given to all, and those who exercise this gift will be saved. When Jesus spoke of the seed being sown in Matthew chapter 13, that which was sown by the wayside was eaten by the birds/taken away by satan(I know the seed here is the Word, but please keep reading this). Now, I see it like this in regards to faith. God gives all who know to do good and doeth it not, faith, and those who let satan talk them out of it, squander the gift(birds eating it before it takes root). What I mean is that when God comes to someone and shows them to be lost, satan will come along and tell them they have years to go to Him, but enjoy your life while you're young. Many have died lost because they chose to listen to satan. It was that way with me. Whenever a thought came along to serve the Lord, or I "knew" He was drawing me, along came satan, and like a fool, I listened to him, and ended up in the bar, cruising for women, anything contrary to what God wanted me to do. So, just because I believe faith is a gift, I, in no way, believe all will put it to good use. Does this clear things up? Yes? No? Maybe?

 

[Frogman]

Brother DHK,
I am not Calvinist neither mystic.

I believe scripture:

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

'for therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith...'

NOTHING can be revealed except that it is ALREADY present.

This righteousness of God is Christ, not your preaching, not my preaching, not your faith, not my faith.

Christ in you is the hope of glory...faith is the substance of things hoped for...

the hope of JOB, the hope of DAVID, is the same hope of ALL the redeemed in Christ whether they know, hear, believe, receive or whether they do not know, hear, believe, receive, any part of my or your gospel message.

:thumbs:

I have neither stretched an analogy, nor strained scripture.

The scripture tells us that life and immortality are brought to light by the gospel:

2 Timothy 1:8-9 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Here we are clearly told that Jesus Christ has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Nothing is revealed that is not already present.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This teaches your, my and all the elect's Time, Temporal, or Gospel salvation. Eternal Life is in and by Christ.

If we take this as you present it, then Eternal life must and can be lost...note your proof text says 'by which ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.'

Now, you make Paul to be my saviour, or my memory, for Paul says ye are saved by this gospel IF ye keep in memory what he has preached unto you, then he says unless ye have believed in vain...this is Gospel salvation and not speaking of Eternal life in Christ,

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Further, we are said to be:

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This is our eternal life, our justification by faith is because we are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The witness that we are the children of God is the foundation upon which we are enabled to cry out to God as Father, as Paul states, this Spirit is sent forth into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father...The witness of the Spirit is personal, inward, and effects the quickening of the elect who are redeemed in Christ, they are not being redeemed, they are not unknown to him, as I have shown in a previous post, they are now redeemed in Him, being bought with a price, they are not their own; these only are enabled through that Spirit of witness (which is the Spirit of adoption Ro. 8) to cry to God as Father.



I maintain what I have stated in the previous post.

bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

The Bible does not declare anywhere that God wants all men to be saved, or either it would declare that all men are saved. The Bible does state:

Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

The very fact of someone seeking, desiring, hoping, fearing, is evidence of the new birth;

Psalms 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

 

[Frogman]

Here Paul makes Timothy, his action of taking heed, his doctrine, all of these, except Christ, to be the savior of both Timothy and his hearers:

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Now, either the actions of Timothy eternally save himself and them that hear him, or this is not speaking of Eternal Life, but instead is declaring the necessity of the minister of the Gospel to:

1. Take heed to himself
2. take heed to the doctrine
3. continue in them (these things)

In doing this, Paul says, thou shalt save

1. thyself; and
2. them that hear thee

No where is Christ declared to be savior of Timothy or his hearers. IF this passage is followed according to a gospel regeneration point of view.

however, when it is correctly applied, it clearly states the gospel ministry, the acts of the minister, the hearing of the word, are all instruments of Gospel/Time salvation by and through obedience.

We are said to be placed in Christ before the foundation of the world; we are said to be made accepted in the beloved to the praise of the glory of His grace;

this things are speaking of our eternal life, our having been redeemed in and by Christ.

our hearing, believing, obeying, and continuance in these things are founded upon the fact that we are redeemed in Christ and that we are made by that inner witness of the Spirit to possess a hope of eternal life, now, faith is the substance of things hoped for, so anyone hearing and rejecting the gospel, we do not give them grounds for hope as far as the outwardly view is concerned, but we cannot speak concerning that inner witness of the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The requisite is not a particular faith in my or your gospel message, the requisite is Nothing less than Christ in you, the hope of glory. Your faith, my faith, gives substance to these things hoped for, but that faith does not give us life, we have life in Christ only and only in His Spirit dwelling in us, as Paul says, Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. All the faith in the world would not change this if it were by faith alone, faith is a fruit of the Spirit, check out Galatians 5, somewhere in there it says that, I think.

yep, hehe,

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Therefore, if faith is a fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit is already present prior to my faith, if the presence of this Spirit is the Life of Christ dwelling in my by His Spirit, then I already have His Life, prior to my faith.

:thumbs:

yep.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

:thumbs:

 

[Frogman]

Should we heed context of this passage too, or not? and why not, if not?

Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

how is this speaking of the written word of God here? does the context reveal this to be speaking of the written word of God here?

Nay, it is but the Eternal Word and he alone with whom we have to do...see the context, you will begin to understand that it is HE with whom we have to do that is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I do not believe the Bible is personified anywhere within its pages or passages. I do believe the Eternal Word of God did become flesh and dwell among us.

I do believe the written word of God in the KJV is the inspired word of God; but Heb. 4:12 is not describing characteristics of that written inspired word, lest that Bible be personified, according to context, by context and in agreement with context.

:thumbs:

ok, heading to bed now. God Bless all with rest this night and His Presence in your worship tomorrow!

bro. Dallas

 

[convicted1]

The Bible does not declare anywhere that God wants all men to be saved, or either it would declare that all men are saved. The Bible does state:

Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

You are talking about context in your other posts, but you leave it out of this verse. It says the wicked will not learn righteousness, and not can not learn righteousness. Major difference there Brother.

Here is something to chew on:

Prov. 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.


These people had the ability to believe upon the Lord, and they chose not to do so. It was that God hadn't provided the way, it was that they refused to follow after Him and His sayings through the Prophets.

Now, here is who Jesus died for:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

When Jesus died, He took each and every sin that had, is, and will be, committed upon Himself, and paid the "sin debt" of all men in full. He did not leave one single sin out when He sacrificed Himself for sinful man. Now, it is those who choose to believe in Him/on Him, that will be saved.

The very fact of someone seeking, desiring, hoping, fearing, is evidence of the new birth;

Psalms 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

Bzzzzz!!! Wrong again Brother. One does not have the "new birth", until after salvation takes place. Regeneration is a "new birth", and I keep reading on here that a person is regenerated to hear the gospel and believe. The scriptures show plainly that y'all who hold to this teaching have it backwards. It takes hearing to live, and not "life" to hear.

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


Now, the problem with saying you have to first be regenerated to hear is that the "death" y'all keep referring to is not a soul dead like a lifeless corpse, but "death" in a sense, being seperated from God by sin. Adam and Eve "died" just as God told them they would, by sinning against Him. They were seperated from Him, when He drove them out of the Garden. They were still alive physically, but the sentence of death was placed upon them, in that they would physically die at some point in time. They were dead in trespasses and sins(their soul), but their soul was still alive functionally. What I mean is that our soul will never die like our physical body will. In Luke chapter 16, you will find two men, Lazarus and a rich man. When each died physically, the soul left their body, making their natural body dead. But their souls were still "alive", one sleeping in Father Abraham's bosom, the other in hell. But, that soul is not "dormant", like their bodies were. If our soul died the same way our body does when we sin, we would die completely, and then be buried. So when we sinned against God, we were seperated from Him, being dead, or better yet, seperated from Him. We are then brought back to life by Christ's blood, and are then back in favor with God because of His righteousness. It's like this passage here:

Hosea 3:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:

3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.

I heard a preacher preach one night that a homer of barley was worth 10 pieces of silver, so a homer and half-homer are worth 15 pieces of silver. Take those 15 pieces of silver and then the other 15 pieces of silver, and you have 30 pieces of silver. That was exactly how much Jesus was betrayed for. Jesus "bought us back" in essence, for 30 pieces of silver. We were like Gomer, we were God's through creation, but we were playing the harlot, when we served satan. Jesus bought us back, eventhough we belonged to Him from the beginning.

Jesus died for all of His creation, that's who He tasted death for.

 

[Frogman]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Brother I have replied within your excerpted quote in blue:

bro. Dallas

You are talking about context in your other posts, but you leave it out of this verse. It says the wicked will not learn righteousness, and not can not learn righteousness. Major difference there Brother.

Yes, the will not because prior to regeneration they possess only a will that is dead in trespasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here is something to chew on:
The context says Wisdom crieth in the streets; Wisdom is Christ as Proverbs teaches us.

The beginning of Proverbs 1 is addressed to "MY SON"

Prov. 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.


These people had the ability to believe upon the Lord, and they chose not to do so. It was that God hadn't provided the way, it was that they refused to follow after Him and His sayings through the Prophets.

This entire passage of Proverbs is again speaking of or Time Salvation, Jacob, in his dispersion and trouble since A.D. 70 can testify to that. No man has an ability to choose Christ for Romans 8:7 tells us the carnal mind is enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God and neither can be. It does not tell us our minds in the natural unregenerate carnal state is becoming an enemy to God, but that it is enmity. The unregenerate do not, cannot turn to God through Christ simply because they will not, meaning as I said above, they possess a will that is in bondage to sin and death.

Now, here is who Jesus died for:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Yes and Romans 8 declares to us that the whole creation even at this present time groans awaiting in travail until it witnesses the redemption of our bodies, see, we are no quickened made alive in Christ by the will and operation of the Godhead, apart from hearing, receiving, believing any gospel message, our bodies though, if we read Romans 8 are yet dead because of sin, but if Christ be in us (NOT if we believe and are thereby in Christ) God will quicken our bodies (raise them in His likeness and thereby, the resurrection, we shall receive the adoption in our bodies as we have in our Souls)

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Please see my response above. John 6 tells us (according to the words of Christ) this:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Regardless of belief, faith, practice, order, or what is taught among men, ALL for whom Christ died are they of whom the Father has given to him (Ephesians 1 tells us this occurred before the foundation of the world and that these are made accepted in the beloved, the scripture nowhere states that we accept the beloved and become His to redeem). IF the Father gave to Christ EVERY member of Adam's race, then HE should LOSE nothing, but should RAISE it up again at the last day. Clearly stated, no confusion.

Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Yes, we each, even the elect were dead in our trespasses and sins, we each were ungodly (in the flesh we remain as such for the wages of sin is death, if our present body were now redeemed as our soul has been, we would no longer see death, yet he is said to have not YET put death under his feet, although he is said to have defeated death and taken away its sting and victory, this is speaking of the bondage of the fear of death, for no person possessing the life of Christ either by faith or that inward witness of the Spirit of the Life of Christ which bears witness with their spirit that they are personally a child of God does fear death because they possess a hope of a better life (promise) to come, this hope, or rather the grounds of this hope is Christ in you, the hope of glory, that glory is the resurrected body in His likeness, glorified and made meet to stand in the eternal presence of God) Yes, you and I were once ungodly as were all His redeemed elect, as we remain ungodly in the flesh, this is why we are warned to not walk after the flesh but after the Spirit, for if we walk after the flesh we receive death.

This reply was too long, so I had to break it in half, the remainder is in another reply.


bro. Dallas
[/FONT]

 

[Frogman]

Reply pt. 2

When Jesus died, He took each and every sin that had, is, and will be, committed upon Himself, and paid the "sin debt" of all men in full. He did not leave one single sin out when He sacrificed Himself for sinful man. Now, it is those who choose to believe in Him/on Him, that will be saved.

If your premise is true, there is NO sin, not even the SIN of UNBELIEF which man can be condemned for, your conclusion denies your premise here brother, rethink it.


I agree, Christ paid in full the complete sin debt and by so doing fully redeemed ALL for whom HE died which are ALL of whom the Father has given (placed in Him before the foundation of the world--Eph. 1 again,); If your premise is true, then Eternal LIFE is universal already upon ALL of the HUMAN race, If your premise is true, the supposed sin of UNBELIEF is no longer able to be held against any man, woman or child. If your premise is true, your conclusion denies it. Unbelief, being a sin, Christ certainly 'saved' his people from All their sins--Mt. 1:21 I believe, think so. Yep,

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Bzzzzz!!! Wrong again Brother. One does not have the "new birth", until after salvation takes place. Regeneration is a "new birth", and I keep reading on here that a person is regenerated to hear the gospel and believe. The scriptures show plainly that y'all who hold to this teaching have it backwards. It takes hearing to live, and not "life" to hear.

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Speak to me of context, yet ignore it for yourself? Isaiah is speaking to the people of God, what of vs. 1 & 2, how will you buy? why will you buy? A wicked non elect individual does not thirst, this is my statement which you buzzzzz? Yet, your desire is to pull a message given to Israel, take that out of context, ignore the fact that there is no price able to or given that can buy this redemption for you, then you tell me we must pay the price of belief? Yet, Christ died for that sin as well as any other? but IF I don't believe, then I am yet dead in trespasses and sin, but Christ supposedly died for my sins, which is plural and would certainly include my personal sin of unbelief?


It is no wonder JOB said:

Job 24:1-10 Why, seeing times are not hidden from the Almighty, do they that know him not see his days? 2 Some remove the landmarks; they violently take away flocks, and feed thereof. 3 They drive away the ass of the fatherless, they take the widow's ox for a pledge. 4 They turn the needy out of the way: the poor of the earth hide themselves together. 5 Behold, as wild asses in the desert, go they forth to their work; rising betimes for a prey: the wilderness yieldeth food for them and for their children. 6 They reap every one his corn in the field: and they gather the vintage of the wicked. 7 They cause the naked to lodge without clothing, that they have no covering in the cold. 8 They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and embrace the rock for want of a shelter. 9 They pluck the fatherless from the breast, and take a pledge of the poor. 10 They cause him to go naked without clothing, and they take away the sheaf from the hungry;

They who know the LORD hear nothing but confusion from those who should be their teachers. We KNOW the LORD because HE lives in US by HIS Spirit, not because we believed a man's message, we learn of HIM through the message, we grow in HIM through the message, but we know Him because HE lives and reigns in us.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

We have dealt with this already, should I go back over it? We each, yes, even the elect are born dead in trespasses and sins, the first man, Adam, we died in him, the second Adam, Christ, we live by Him, not by any outward work of righteousness, not even that of faith, because I have shown the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel message, that then which is revealed (the righteousness of God) is already present in those in whom it is revealed because NOTHING that is not already present cannot be revealed.

Now, the problem with saying you have to first be regenerated to hear is that the "death" y'all keep referring to is not a soul dead like a lifeless corpse, but "death" in a sense, being seperated from God by sin. Adam and Eve "died" just as God told them they would, by sinning against Him. They were seperated from Him, when He drove them out of the Garden. They were still alive physically, but the sentence of death was placed upon them, in that they would physically die at some point in time. They were dead in trespasses and sins(their soul), but their soul was still alive functionally. What I mean is that our soul will never die like our physical body will. In Luke chapter 16, you will find two men, Lazarus and a rich man. When each died physically, the soul left their body, making their natural body dead. But their souls were still "alive", one sleeping in Father Abraham's bosom, the other in hell. But, that soul is not "dormant", like their bodies were. If our soul died the same way our body does when we sin, we would die completely, and then be buried. So when we sinned against God, we were seperated from Him, being dead, or better yet, seperated from Him. We are then brought back to life by Christ's blood, and are then back in favor with God because of His righteousness. It's like this passage here:

I agree, whether redeemed or not, the soul of man is eternal. Even the wicked unredeemed shall be raised by the power of holiness which raised Christ, scripture tells us somewhere Christ the firstfruit, then they that are his, then see, HE is both, the resurrection and the life. The wicked dead, unredeemed, will be resurrected in body.

being dead in trespasses and sins does certainly bring the wages of sin and death; it also has bound the spirit and soul of man in the grave clothes, that then places his/her will into bondage to that sin nature, that bondage out from which Christ in HIS work of atonement and redemption has purchased HIS people, yet, the body, the flesh, as Paul shows in Ro. 7-8 has not yet been raised out of that condition by the adoption into the family of God, but if Christ be in you, God will raise you just as HE did Christ, but if Christ is not in you (not you personally, you would not show concern for the things of God were HE not present in you) then HE being not in you makes you none of his.


Hosea 3:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

Clearly a people chosen.

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:

Redemption made. See Redemption is purchasing out from the market place, that market place is sin and death, Christ has Redeemed ALL of whom the Father has given (placed in and made accepted in Him) before the foundation of the world, He shall lose nothing, but shall raise it up at the last day.

3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.

I heard a preacher preach one night that a homer of barley was worth 10 pieces of silver, so a homer and half-homer are worth 15 pieces of silver. Take those 15 pieces of silver and then the other 15 pieces of silver, and you have 30 pieces of silver. That was exactly how much Jesus was betrayed for. Jesus "bought us back" in essence, for 30 pieces of silver. We were like Gomer, we were God's through creation, but we were playing the harlot, when we served satan. Jesus bought us back, eventhough we belonged to Him from the beginning.

Jesus died for all of His creation, that's who He tasted death for.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I am outside your quote now, but see, I have shown you according to scripture that this is redemption. Jesus did not go into the market place, this world of sin and death to redeem an unknown people, but to redeem (buy back) those whom the Father placed in HIM as their surety before any thing was created that is; further, HE has likewise redeemed the world, or HIS creation, no thing was created without him, yet that, just as our present bodies, has not yet experienced the fullness of that redemption.


bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

hahahaha, I just saw an add that says "If David Williams wins, Kentucky loses" Now how'd they know I'm in KY???? Oh, I wrote it at the top of my posts....:laugh:

 

[Winman]

Bro. Winman,

That is why I do not really care for the titles "Arminian", or "Calvinist". I am in neither camp, but I side closer to the "A's" than the "C's". Now, when I state that faith is a gift of God, I do so by meaning that this is offered/given to all, and those who exercise this gift will be saved. When Jesus spoke of the seed being sown in Matthew chapter 13, that which was sown by the wayside was eaten by the birds/taken away by satan(I know the seed here is the Word, but please keep reading this). Now, I see it like this in regards to faith. God gives all who know to do good and doeth it not, faith, and those who let satan talk them out of it, squander the gift(birds eating it before it takes root). What I mean is that when God comes to someone and shows them to be lost, satan will come along and tell them they have years to go to Him, but enjoy your life while you're young. Many have died lost because they chose to listen to satan. It was that way with me. Whenever a thought came along to serve the Lord, or I "knew" He was drawing me, along came satan, and like a fool, I listened to him, and ended up in the bar, cruising for women, anything contrary to what God wanted me to do. So, just because I believe faith is a gift, I, in no way, believe all will put it to good use. Does this clear things up? Yes? No? Maybe?

Willis, the seed is the word of God, not faith. Faith in this parable is the word "received".

Lk 8:13 They on the rock are they, that when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The "way side" soil never "received" the seed, it was hard and trodden down, the seed laid on the surface and the fowls (the devil) came and took it away.

continued...

 

[Van]

Reply to Aaron

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This passage is neither obscure nor colored by its location in the text. This is a straightforward maxim and stands alone like any of the Proverbs. There is no confusing what is said here. There is no possibility of misunderstanding by any, saved or not.

But what the Noncalvinist cannot do is believe it, because it is foolishness to him. The only way you can get around it is to say that the preaching of the Gospel is not a work of the Holy Spirit.

Are you implying the reason non-Calvinists disagree with Calvinism is they are "natural men."
Just what does 1 Corinthians 2:14 say:

14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.ESV

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.NKJV

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.NASB

What are "the things of the Spirit of God" that a natural man does not accept or receive? The things that are spiritually discerned. But when Paul talked to the babes in Christ, 1 Corinthians 3:1 says Paul could not speak to the babes in Christ as "spiritual men" but as men of flesh. Therefore some spiritual things such as the milk of the gospel, can be discerned by men of the flesh.

Aaron, to deny this is to deny scripture. This view is not in conflict with 1 Corinthians 2:14, but presents an understanding of it that conflicts with Calvinism's mistaken understanding.

 

[Aaron]

Actually, it's because we affirm that the Gospel IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, that supports our view that the Gospel can be understood and believed by someone not yet regenerated.

You clearly don't know what you believe. In one place you say that faith is a possession of the natural man, in another you say it isn't, and here again you say it is.

Aunt Jemima couldn't make better waffles.

 

[Van]

I do think it is Uncle Aaron who is mixing the waffle batter here.

You say "faith is a possession of the natural man" and attribute that statement to Skandelon. But these are your words, concocted as a trap, and then carefully inserted into Skandelon's mouth.

Why not address how a natural man comes to faith. We say by hearing the gospel. And we have a verse to back it up. Calvinism says by Irresistible Grace, but has no verse to back it up. Those waffles of yours should to given to the birds.

 

[quantumfaith]

Anytime I hear the words "Clearly" or "the fact of the matter is" etc, usually spoken by politicians, my "bunk" meter goes into overdrive.

 

[Aaron]

I do think it is Uncle Aaron who is mixing the waffle batter here.

You say "faith is a possession of the natural man" and attribute that statement to Skandelon. But these are your words, concocted as a trap, and then carefully inserted into Skandelon's mouth.

Read his post again. He said, and I quote, "The Gospel can be understood and believed by someone not yet regenerated." If he's trapped, he's trapped by his own words..

Why not address how a natural man comes to faith.

The natural man doesn't come to faith. He cannot receive it.

We say by hearing the gospel.

Unless one is given an ear to hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, one cannot receive the Gospel, because it is foolishness to him.

And we have a verse to back it up.

You have no verse that says the natural man can receive the things of God.

Calvinism says by Irresistible Grace, but has no verse to back it up.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. . . Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Those waffles of yours should to given to the birds.

I'm not the one wafflin'.

 

[Skandelon]

I do think it is Uncle Aaron who is mixing the waffle batter here.

You say "faith is a possession of the natural man" and attribute that statement to Skandelon. But these are your words, concocted as a trap, and then carefully inserted into Skandelon's mouth.

Why not address how a natural man comes to faith. We say by hearing the gospel. And we have a verse to back it up. Calvinism says by Irresistible Grace, but has no verse to back it up. Those waffles of yours should to given to the birds.

:thumbs: He has a tendency of not allowing other's words speak for themselves. :tear: