is the Holy Spirit Involved in the "Modern Charasmatic' Movemnent at all?

[Thomas Helwys]

I must mention another error of Pentecostalism/Charismania: The teaching of an "unknown" tongue, and a so-called "prayer language". In the NT, the tongues spoken in were actual known languages that could be interpreted.

This prayer language stuff is just garbled gibberish that is not a language at all and certainly not scriptural. And these TV preachers that just blurt this stuff out are dong so in violation of scripture.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

WHere did you come up with that conclusion?

From the contextual circumstances, and scholarly study of the issue. But scholarly study is not necessary. Just read and keep in mind the context and the circumstances. These were special, unique, exceptional, one-time events in a transitional period for the Gospel, when it was being preached and expanded beyond its original Jewish setting.

See, this is how people erroneously build doctrines that are in error, and even entire denominations based on one doctrine that they have misinterpreted and misapplied!

 

[awaken]

From the contextual circumstances, and scholarly study of the issue. But scholarly study is not necessary. Just read and keep in mind the context and the circumstances. These were special, unique, exceptional, one-time events in a transitional period for the Gospel, when it was being preached and expanded beyond its original Jewish setting.

See, this is how people erroneously build doctrines that are in error, and even entire denominations based on one doctrine that they have misinterpreted and misapplied!

No this is how people come up with their own doctring! Reading into scripture something that is not there!

 

[Walter]

That is true.

I have attributed the works of Satan to Satan.

The difference is easily recognizable, to me at least. Maybe because I went in as an objective observer who is also a Christian.

I am passionate to find truth and the true workings of God wherever they exist. Too often, in the Charismatic movement, it is counterfeit, and worse, direct works of Satan.

When you see someone writhing on the floor, laughing hysterically, it is not of God.

I think this link illustrates well what you are talking about. I don't see how this is edifying anyone and wonder what non-believers in the audience leave out of there with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SgByE0pX1M

If you notice at the start of the comments this was uploaded to Youtube by 'Ex-Christians Alliance'. Very sad

 

[awaken]

I must mention another error of Pentecostalism/Charismania: The teaching of an "unknown" tongue, and a so-called "prayer language". In the NT, the tongues spoken in were actual known languages that could be interpreted.

This prayer language stuff is just garbled gibberish that is not a language at all and certainly not scriptural. And these TV preachers that just blurt this stuff out are dong so in violation of scripture.

Tongues is a known language to someone! But not to the one speaking! Tongues is a powerful manifestation when given with interpretation. It is also very beneficial to the believer!

 

[awaken]

You know, i have listened to this issue and the debates on it over the years, and I have been leaning towards this;

I believe (and I am not by any means totally all in on this) what we are calling the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which appears to come either at conversion or some later date, is the administration of gifts by the Holy Spirit.

When a person gets "saved" they receive of course the Holy Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Father God. What we see as a baptism of the Holy Spirit could be viewed as the administration of gifts, which the Spirit may give at conversion and at a later date.

We are told to ask for gifts, correct? This tells us we can obtain gifts AFTER conversion. Let's say you are given the gift of healings, what would this look like? Wouldn't others see how the Holy Spirit is with you? Couldn't you say "I have been baptised by the Holy Spirit, given the gift of healings" ? Isn't this even what Pentacostles would say?

But then time goes by, and this same person has been coveting earnestly the gift of tongues, and bamm! The Holy Spirit comes upon them and the gift is manifest! Would this person say they have been baptised by the Holy Spirit a second time? And coudn't there be a third time and a forth?

I am beginning to see this baptism of the Holy Spirit, not as a one time event that should be sought after and somehow you feel like you have "made it" with God when you receive a gift.

Isn't preaching and teaching a result of the baptism of the Holy Ghost? How about the gift of servant? The humble christian who gets no recognition, but faithfully serves behind the scenes? No great "power" gift, or is it?

It appears there are many diverse gifts given from the very point of conversion. And also gifts given after conversion. Some of these gifts are very "powerful" to the public eye, some not so much.

Does God call all Christians to have the so called "power" gifts? I think not, I know not. But it does appear to me that every Christian has been baptised with the Holy Spirit at conversion and given gifts for the edifying of the kingdom. AND, the Holy Spirit gives additional baptisms, calling some Christians to service in differing areas at differing times. Giving some gifts, such a miracles, to convince say a pagan crowd in some foreign land that the preacher is accompanied by God! Or even Christian man is called and baptised by the Holy Spirit to become a pastor later in life. We cannot view all of this from our little world here in north america, God is doing things like was done in the book of Acts in other places in the world going into all the ends of the earth. Talk to some missionaries sometime.

So I think we might be wrong to view the baptism of the Holy Spirit as only a one time event in a Christian's life. As an event that only happens either at conversion or afterwards and can only happen once. I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I think we are getting it all twisted around into something it is not.

Alright, thoughts have been emptied out, Godspeed!

I have enjoyed reading everyone of your post! Even if I do not agree with some of what you say. Because I sense a loving, genuine spirit in every post! Your desire and openness to learn and teach without a critical or judgemental spirit.

 

[salzer mtn]

Could it be, people that think they have been baptised in the Holy Spirit as a second working of grace actually just got saved instead ? I have often comparred my conversion with other peoples conversions and all are not alike. When the Lord saved me it was a Damascus road experience, others i've talked to just experienced a peace that calmed the troubled waters. As a young christian i use to think if sinners didn't get what i had gotten their salvation was not real, I was wrong. I do believe when a person passes from death unto life they will know it. I don't know why some peoples experience is greater than others, is it lack of faith, or more faith, a hardened sinner vs a person that's not corrupted by sin ? I think if people would seek a closer walk with the master by reading his word to grow in grace and knowledge of the truth and not neglect their prayer life they would find they don't need a second or a third working of grace.

 

[awaken]

Could it be, people that think they have been baptised in the Holy Spirit as a second working of grace actually just got saved instead ? I have often comparred my conversion with other peoples conversions and all are not alike. When the Lord saved me it was a Damascus road experience, others i've talked to just experienced a peace that calmed the troubled waters. As a young christian i use to think if sinners didn't get what i had gotten their salvation was not real, I was wrong. I do believe when a person passes from death unto life they will know it. I don't know why some peoples experience is greater than others, is it lack of faith, or more faith, a hardened sinner vs a person that's not corrupted by sin ? I think if people would seek a closer walk with the master by reading his word to grow in grace and knowledge of the truth and not neglect their prayer life they would find they don't need a second or a third working of grace.

My pastor teaches that we get all the Holy Spirit at salvation. Maybe it is our unbelief..the way we are taught..etc. that keeps Him from being released into our lives. All I know is that I was saved for years, taught and believed the manifestations of the Holy Spirit had ceased. It was not until I repented of my unbelief concerning this and embraced by faith what His word said I could be walking in before I experienced it in my own life. Did I get it all at salvation, could be..

 

[evangelist-7]

I am beginning to see this baptism of the Holy Spirit, not as a one time event that should be sought after
and somehow you feel like you have "made it" with God when you receive a gift.
Isn't preaching and teaching a result of the baptism of the Holy Ghost?
How about the gift of servant? The humble christian who gets no recognition,
but faithfully serves behind the scenes? No great "power" gift, or is it?

IMO, it is quite settled that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a one-time event in a person's life.
But, there can be (and should be) subsequent in-fillings of the Spirit.

Derek Prince believed that these 9 spiritual power gifts were given as required at the moment
to believers who had the Spirit baptism.

But, most of us believe that once you've been given one of these gifts, you have it permanently,
i.e. God will not take it back (ref: OT and NT).

Many Spirit-baptized Pentecostals are called to be powerful intercessors, prayer warriors, etc.
I suppose you're just going to have to search out some of these for yourself and talk to them.
They will tell you how much more spiritual "everything" they have since being Spirit-baptized.

E.G. Praying (or worshipping) in tongues is a much more powerful prayer (or worship) than without tongues
because it is actually the Holy Spirit who is doing the praying (or worshipping) ... ref: 1 Corinthians!
Note: this is only for those who have the gift of tongues.

IMO, you can find many good testimonies on the Internet ... agreeing with us here who are testifying to you.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

From the contextual circumstances, and scholarly study of the issue. But scholarly study is not necessary. Just read and keep in mind the context and the circumstances. These were special, unique, exceptional, one-time events in a transitional period for the Gospel, when it was being preached and expanded beyond its original Jewish setting.
See, this is how people erroneously build doctrines that are in error, and even entire denominations based on one doctrine that they have misinterpreted and misapplied!

'Tis wonderful how da flesh can figure out so much on its own! Quite marvelous!
What about the Holy Spirit teaching us "all things" (John 14:26)?
But, with your intellect and etc., who needs the Holy Spirit, right?

Some spiritual Truths are hidden purposely by the Lord for His own reasons.
Why not consider this, and come into the light a little more ...
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=84761
.

 

[evangelist-7]

I think if people would seek a closer walk with the master by reading his word
to grow in grace and knowledge of the truth and not neglect their prayer life
they would find they don't need a second or a third working of grace.

Yes, of course, THEY don't need it!

But, JESUS needs it!
That's why He baptizes some people with the Holy Spirit
... so they will have real spiritual power to work for Him in expanding the kingdom!
Not Just that, but for edifying and strengthening the church!
.

 

[evangelist-7]

My pastor teaches that we get all the Holy Spirit at salvation. Maybe it is our unbelief..the way we are taught..etc. that keeps Him from being released into our lives. All I know is that I was saved for years, taught and believed the manifestations of the Holy Spirit had ceased. It was not until I repented of my unbelief concerning this and embraced by faith what His word said I could be walking in before I experienced it in my own life.
Did I get it all at salvation, could be..

Sorry, I don't recall ... did you experience tongues LATER, or not?
If you did, then you did not get it all @ salvation!
.

 

[awaken]

Sorry, I don't recall ... did you experience tongues LATER, or not?
If you did, then you did not get it all @ salvation!
.

tongues was later!

 

[DHK]

Yes, of course, THEY don't need it!

But, JESUS needs it!
That's why He baptizes some people with the Holy Spirit
... so they will have real spiritual power to work for Him in expanding the kingdom!
Not Just that, but for edifying and strengthening the church!
.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

You say: "But, JESUS needs it!"

Jesus is Lord; Creator of all things. He has need of nothing!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

No this is how people come up with their own doctring! Reading into scripture something that is not there!

On the contrary, the circumstances in the relevant scriptures are exactly as I stated, so I am seeing what is there. It is you and others who hold your positions who do not see what is there and thus make a doctrine and entire denomination out of one or two verses, ignoring the context and circumstances.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Tongues is a known language to someone! But not to the one speaking! Tongues is a powerful manifestation when given with interpretation. It is also very beneficial to the believer!

And this gibberish that most spout is NOT a known language!

"Da lo ta kask mi fa gi mola cotma" is not a known language!

See, I just spoke in "tongues".

 

[Thomas Helwys]

'Tis wonderful how da flesh can figure out so much on its own! Quite marvelous!
What about the Holy Spirit teaching us "all things" (John 14:26)?
But, with your intellect and etc., who needs the Holy Spirit, right?

Some spiritual Truths are hidden purposely by the Lord for His own reasons.
Why not consider this, and come into the light a little more ...
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=84761
.

What is marvelous is how you misrepresent me and post outright lies. Wonder by what spirit you are doing that. Tisn't the Holy one.

Don't try to lecture me about the Holy Spirit, sonny boy. The Holy Spirit uses the intellect and study to teach, but it is characteristic of Charismania to tell people to not let their minds get in the way. This is the mark of a cult.

 

[evangelist-7]

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
You say: "But, JESUS needs it!"
Jesus is Lord; Creator of all things. He has need of nothing!

Can't quite recall just how many times I've said this here ...
Throughout Scripture, we see that it is God's desire that He accomplish His Plan on earth
with the co-operation with man ... hand-in-hand.

So, to accomplish His goals, from His perspective (not yours), He needs Christians to help Him.
Why do you think He calls people to be Baptist pastors?
I know, you'd much prefer if Jesus came and did the preaching Himself.
.

 

[DHK]

Awaken you admit to speaking in tongues, so here are a few basic questions that need an honest answer:

Remember, however, that the word translated "tongue" means language, as in "known language."
"How hear we every man in our own language, wherein we were born."

1. Do you know what language you are speaking?
2. Do you have an interpreter?
3. Does he know what language you speak, and if so does he tell you, and can both language and interpretation be verified?
4. If you don't have an interpreter and you don't know what language how do you know it is from God?
5. How do you know what you are saying is actually praising God?
6. In fact, if you are speaking in "another tongue" are you sure that it is an actual language.
7. If it is not a language, but just gibberish, as Thomas alluded to, are you sure that even God can understand it?
8. Can you give any Scriptural evidence that God can understand your gibberish?
9. If you are adamant that it is not "gibberish" can you provide proof or evidence that it is a known language and what language it is. You should be able to do that?
10. Most of all, why would you even pray (communication) in a language which you cannot understand, when the purpose of prayer is communication--pleading on your behalf and the behalf of others, and praising God for who he is, if you don't know what you are saying? Would not that be better done in a person's mother tongue when they can best be most eloquent in their praises to God, and think more easily about what they want to express to God?

 

[DHK]

Can't quite recall just how many times I've said this here ...
Throughout Scripture, we see that it is God's desire that He accomplish His Plan on earth
with the co-operation with man ... hand-in-hand.

What makes you think God HAS to cooperate with man!
Are you going to force God to cooperate?
Does he need you? Really? Are you that arrogant to think that God needs you?
He doesn't need you, or me, or anyone of us. He doesn't need a single person in this universe. He didn't need to create mankind, the world, the universe, or anything that is mentioned in Genesis one. God has need of nothing.
It is heresy to say that God needs your cooperation. He can take you and destroy and be perfectly just in doing so.

So, to accomplish His goals, from His perspective (not yours), He needs Christians to help Him.

No he doesn't. He can do things another way. He doesn't need Christians. He doesn't need anyone. He doesn't need anything. God is totally self-sufficient. We live only because of his grace and mercy. God is all in all. If God should change the ratio of Nitrogen to Oxygen in atmosphere so that it would smother all of mankind he would be perfectly just in doing so. He doesn't NEED you or any other Christian. He has need of nothing.

Why do you think He calls people to be Baptist pastors?
I know, you'd much prefer if Jesus came and did the preaching Himself.

.

He works according to his will and plan. That doesn't mean his bound to it.
His perfect will, for example, was that Pharaoh would have repented. He didn't force Pharaoh's hand. It was Pharaoh that destroyed his own land because of his own hardness toward God.
But, OTOH, God could have wiped out the entire population, including all of Israel and have still remained perfectly just. He is not obligated to any one man.
He has need of nothing.
He is Lord.