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Is The Papacy Threatened?

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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Now, hopefully, back to the OP.

Remember, even as head of CDF, Cardinal Ratzinger would not have known the scope of the problem until CDF took the cases themselves, and they got the world-wide scope of the problem.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. (Ask anyone who has received a speeding ticket).
And it doesn’t explain why this practice continued after psychological science coupled with more societal awareness and media attention made it patently clear that there was no “cure” for this problem and total removal from ministry was the only option.
We don't need science to tell us right from wrong. The Bible tells us that such criminals are not worthy to be pastors or leaders in the church and should be disciplined from the church immediately. In fact if the ordinary member of the church should be disciplined as such, how much more should the priest who holds a higher standard (or ought to).

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
--The sin is fornication, particularly incest. This, although immoral, is not as heinous as a crime as raping a child.

The punishment according to Paul, who speaks according to the Holy Spirit:
1 Corinthians 5:4-5 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
--Purging out the old leaven (the sin of fornication) is the same as excommunication. Now this is for a member who did not hold any position of leadership whatsoever. What would Paul have said if this person would have been in a place of leadership--a teacher of children?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Wow, was someone trying to be 'misleading' when starting the thread 'Denominational Sites'? Baptists misleading Baptists? Under the same thread 'Denominational Sites' all I see is Baptist, not one RCC site.
As I mentioned to you already the title of the thread is misleading. So there is no need to remain in ignorance or try to be deliberately misleading. Why are you doing this Lori? Have you read the title of the Forum where you are getting this information, or do you need to be informed about this also?
It is THE BAPTIST HISTORY FORUM. They are not referring to Catholics or any other "denominations," or whatever you may refer to them. Hence your confusion.

Again the OP:
In a related topic on this forum, Baptist Groups, we are discussing the various Baptist groups in the United States. I thought some of you might like some links to some of these groups.
Understand what that means. Now further discussion of this topic is off topic and will be deleted.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Every day the RCC displays its horrible crimes. It is all over the news every day:
Cdn. diocese defends handling of sex-abuse claim against top Vatican official
at 20:47 on April 9, 2010, EDT.
By Colin Perkel, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

TORONTO - A Canadian diocese is defending its handling of sexual-abuse complaints against a top church official amid new evidence its former bishop discussed with Vatican officials how to keep the scandal from becoming public.

In a statement from the eastern Ontario diocese of Pembroke, Bishop Michael Mulhall said the process by which the facts came to light in the 1990s "took time and careful consideration" of the interests of the parties.

The initial allegations were of "uncertain nature," Mulhall said Friday.

"The diocese did not at the time, and does not today, feel that the emotional impact on the victims was underplayed or trivialized."

In 1993, the late bishop of Pembroke, Joseph Windle, wrote a letter to Carlo Curis, then the pope's envoy to Canada, in which he raised concerns about Monsignor Bernard Prince.

Prince, a friend of the late Pope John Paul II, held various administrative posts in Ottawa and Toronto before being moved to the Vatican in 1991.

A man, now 53, who cannot be identified because of a court publication ban, said he had complained to the Pembroke diocese about Prince in 1990.

"That's the sad thing," the man said. "He was promoted."

Prince served as secretary-general of the Vatican's Pontifical Society for the Propagation of the Faith, which works with missionary societies, from 1991 until he retired in 2004.

Mulhall said the diocese "took the initiative" in contacting the victim in October 1990 in response to "rumours" that began circulating early that year.

"The victim was encouraged to refer the allegations to the civil authorities and offered support and encouragement. His decision at the time was not to do so."

It wasn't until 2005 that Ontario Provincial Police received a complaint from a man claiming that he had been molested by Prince in 1969.

Prince returned to Canada in 2006 to face criminal charges and is currently serving a four-year sentence after being convicted in 2008 of sexually molesting 13 boys between 1964 and 1984.

Mulhall noted that part of Windle's four-page letter in 1993 stated the information was emerging "in bits and pieces, from various sources, including sordid details."

"We have no way of assessing the total accuracy of these reports," Mulhall quoted the letter as saying.

In his letter, Windle advised the Vatican to avoid honouring or promoting Prince, because it might anger abuse victims and lead them to file criminal charges or civil lawsuits.

"The consequences of such an action would be disastrous, not only for the Canadian church but for the Holy See as well," he wrote.

The correspondence was made public this week through civil court proceedings and first published by a national newspaper Friday.

The Vatican embassy in Ottawa refused to comment.

In his letter, Windle said he had advised at least one Vatican archbishop, Jose Sanchez, now a cardinal, about the abuse complaint but had no objections to Prince being given another chance.

"At that time, we were under the impression that the incident was isolated, in the distant past, and there was little or no danger of any scandal ever emerging," Windle wrote

However, after Prince took up his Vatican post, Windle informed the papal nuncio in Ottawa that the situation had become "more precarious" because four or five men were claiming to have been abused by Prince as boys.

Prince, who grew up in a Polish settlement in Ontario, became friends with Cardinal Karol Wojtyla of Krakow before he became Pope John Paul II.

There are pictures of the late pope with Prince, and Canadian diva Celine Dion included a 1984 photo of her with Prince and the pope at the Vatican.

Prince was defrocked last year.

The new revelations come as a bishop facing child pornography charges in Ontario was slapped with a civil lawsuit alleging he sexually assaulted a young boy who lived at the Mount Cashel Orphanage in St. John's, N.L.
How shameful. This is not Christianity. We need to show to the world that the RCC is not and never was Christian. Christians do not act in this way. This is shameful.



1 Timothy 3:1-2 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Every day the RCC displays its horrible crimes. It is all over the news every day:

How shameful. This is not Christianity. We need to show to the world that the RCC is not and never was Christian. Christians do not act in this way. This is shameful.



1 Timothy 3:1-2 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

So are the Baptist predators listed on: http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

Do you hear me saying that all Baptists are not Christian and never were Christians because of the filth in your churches acting this way?
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Every day the RCC displays its horrible crimes. It is all over the news every day:

How shameful. This is not Christianity. We need to show to the world that the RCC is not and never was Christian. Christians do not act in this way. This is shameful.


While I certainly agree with you that sexual misconduct of any flavor warrants the discipline of the church and when it involves minors criminal charges should accompany church discipline, your assertion that

the RCC is not and never was Christian

is way off base and totally uncalled for. You most certainly know that other "denominations" such as baptists routinely experience some of the same issues of sexual misconduct. Plenty of protestant ministers have been charged and convicted of such charges as well, and from these we would not make the call that "those" churches are not and never have been christians.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You most certainly know that other "denominations" such as baptists routinely experience some of the same issues of sexual misconduct. Plenty of protestant ministers have been charged and convicted of such charges as well, and from these we would not make the call that "those" churches are not and never have been christians.
We are 27 pages into this thread. How many of them have you read? Did you bother to read the OP? Don't bother to jump into the conversation 3/4 of the way through when you don't know what the topic is. Go back and read the first page, at least, and then some.

You are right on one point, though. There are other denominations, even some Baptists that have been charged and convicted of such charges. The key word there is "convicted." That is how we operate. We treat criminals as criminals and don't hide the crimes of the priests or bishops, and simply transfer them to another parish where they can commit the same crimes all over again, as has been the practice of the RCC.
In our churches "Do the crime; Do the time!"
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Every day the RCC displays its horrible crimes. It is all over the news every day:

How shameful. This is not Christianity. We need to show to the world that the RCC is not and never was Christian. Christians do not act in this way. This is shameful.


While I certainly agree with you that sexual misconduct of any flavor warrants the discipline of the church and when it involves minors criminal charges should accompany church discipline, your assertion that

the RCC is not and never was Christian

is way off base and totally uncalled for. You most certainly know that other "denominations" such as baptists routinely experience some of the same issues of sexual misconduct. Plenty of protestant ministers have been charged and convicted of such charges as well, and from these we would not make the call that "those" churches are not and never have been christians.

That's right, Quantumfaith. It has been pointed out to DHK (by non-Catholics) previously that close to two-thirds of all sexual abuse of children by clergy in the U.S. has been committed by Protestants (Baptist are included in this statistic). DHK says the statistics are false.

DHK has a hatred of anything Roman Catholic so he celebrates these horrible crimes and judges and declares all Catholics as un-regenerate and un-Christian. Pitiful.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
So are the Baptist predators listed on: http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

Do you hear me saying that all Baptists are not Christian and never were Christians because of the filth in your churches acting this way?
My church is not SBC (that site is), not will it ever be, and nor will I ever be. It doesn't speak for me.
Here is what it says:
The aftermath of Catholic travails spreads far beyond Catholic walls. They besmirch and defile the reputation of all Christians in leadership roles -- ordained or not -- and betray the trust built over centuries by those who profess to love Jesus above all else and to purely love and serve those whom Jesus loved.
I disagree. The Catholic Church has brought upon itself shame, the reputation of a horrible past, and the stigma of a pagan church which it is. If the SBC wants to call it Christian, then that is its prerogative, but I do not.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
We are 27 pages into this thread. How many of them have you read? Did you bother to read the OP? Don't bother to jump into the conversation 3/4 of the way through when you don't know what the topic is. Go back and read the first page, at least, and then some.

You are right on one point, though. There are other denominations, even some Baptists that have been charged and convicted of such charges. The key word there is "convicted." That is how we operate. We treat criminals as criminals and don't hide the crimes of the priests or bishops, and simply transfer them to another parish where they can commit the same crimes all over again, as has been the practice of the RCC.
In our churches "Do the crime; Do the time!"

1. Dont treat me like a child and chide me with your assumptions about reading the posts.
2. I will jump into a "discussion" anytime I so feel moved. That is the very nature of a discussion board.
 

Zenas

Active Member
My church is not SBC (that site is), not will it ever be, and nor will I ever be. It doesn't speak for me.
Here is what it says:

I disagree. The Catholic Church has brought upon itself shame, the reputation of a horrible past, and the stigma of a pagan church which it is. If the SBC wants to call it Christian, then that is its prerogative, but I do not.
That is not an SBC site. It was put up by someone intent on scandalizing SBC pastors and prominent leaders of the denomination.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
My church is not SBC (that site is), not will it ever be, and nor will I ever be. It doesn't speak for me.
Here is what it says:

I disagree. The Catholic Church has brought upon itself shame, the reputation of a horrible past, and the stigma of a pagan church which it is. If the SBC wants to call it Christian, then that is its prerogative, but I do not.

The SBC is a wonderful denomination, DHK. They simply are confronting a problem that reflects on all Christianity. I commend them for their honesty.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
1. Dont treat me like a child and chide me with your assumptions about reading the posts.
2. I will jump into a "discussion" anytime I so feel moved. That is the very nature of a discussion board.
Yes, and your posts can be ignored because we have already covered the things that you have mentioned. They weren't assumptions. If you had been following the discussions then you would have had known that the topic of the conduct of other denominations has already been amply covered. You would also have known that the subject of other denominations is not the subject of this thread.
Therefore keep on topic and address your responses to the OP.
Thank you.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
The SBC is a wonderful denomination, DHK. They simply are confronting a problem that reflects on all Christianity. I commend them for their honesty.
We are all entitled to our various opinions of the SBC, but that is a nice diversion from the real topic of this thread isn't it--the horrible conduct of the RCC which is still in the news today!
In 1993, the late bishop of Pembroke, Joseph Windle, wrote a letter to Carlo Curis, then the pope's envoy to Canada, in which he raised concerns about Monsignor Bernard Prince.
Prince, a friend of the late Pope John Paul II, held various administrative posts in Ottawa and Toronto before being moved to the Vatican in 1991.
A man, now 53, who cannot be identified because of a court publication ban, said he had complained to the Pembroke diocese about Prince in 1990.
"That's the sad thing," the man said. "He was promoted."



However, after Prince took up his Vatican post, Windle informed the papal nuncio in Ottawa that the situation had become "more precarious" because four or five men were claiming to have been abused by Prince as boys.
http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/NationalNewsArticle.htm?src=n0409127A.xml

It goes right to the Vatican, right to the top.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
The Catholic Church and ESPECIALLY Pope Benedict is trying to rid the Church of these predators and those who covered up for them. The New York Times has committed libel. This is worse than the Jason Blair case and they need to be called out on it.

Put the spotlight where it needs to be. The pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-anything Sin goes, crowd would love to topple the one global organization still pushing forward on biblical authority out in the open and aggressviely, without fear. Personally, I believe that Pope Benedict, despite calls otherwise, MUST stay pope and get the RC Church thorough this crisis. He is the ONE person who, because of his leading CDF, has seen the horror that is ALL of these cases. Can you begin to imagine what it must be like to have seen those cases from around the world? You have to wonder if he can sleep nights, knowing what he’s been privvy to. I pray for him.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
The Catholic Church and ESPECIALLY Pope Benedict is trying to rid the Church of these predators and those who covered up for them. The New York Times has committed libel. This is worse than the Jason Blair case and they need to be called out on it.
I never quoted the New York Times. I quoted from a Canadian source, and the scandal referred to is a Canadian one. I can give you the same story with a few additional facts from the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). They are reporting the facts. It is not the media's fault that the RCC has their own home-grown pedophiles.
"[There is a] scandal-centric attitude on reducing scandal at all costs, which ironically in the long-run now has created more scandal than anything," said Talach.
"It seems to be norm now that there isn't an appropriate reaction at any level of the church, that this crime of child sexual abuse is not viewed in the same eye as secular society views it," he said.
http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=23835572
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Catholic Church and ESPECIALLY Pope Benedict is trying to rid the Church of these predators and those who covered up for them. The New York Times has committed libel. This is worse than the Jason Blair case and they need to be called out on it.

Put the spotlight where it needs to be. The pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-anything Sin goes, crowd would love to topple the one global organization still pushing forward on biblical authority out in the open and aggressviely, without fear. Personally, I believe that Pope Benedict, despite calls otherwise, MUST stay pope and get the RC Church thorough this crisis. He is the ONE person who, because of his leading CDF, has seen the horror that is ALL of these cases. Can you begin to imagine what it must be like to have seen those cases from around the world? You have to wonder if he can sleep nights, knowing what he’s been privvy to. I pray for him.

What do you mean by "trying to rid"? I always understood that the pope had the final authority in every issue. Are you telling me that he cannot put everyone of those found less than blameless out of office this very day?

They have a huge problem, not enough people want to sign up to be a Pharisee so they are trying to keep as many on board as they can. They follow themsleves, not God.

Put the spotlight where it needs to be. The pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-anything Sin goes, crowd would love to topple the one global organization still pushing forward on biblical authority out in the open and aggressviely, without fear.

God has put the spotlight right on target. The RCC has become the Pharisees.

Gal 6:7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Mat 18:6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

:jesus:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
The public eye has been so focused on the RCC that it has finally forced them to do the right thing. It can never right the past wrongs however.
By The Associated Press, cbc.ca, Updated: April 12, 2010 10:35 AM
Clergy must report sex abuse: Vatican

Clergy must report sex abuse: Vatican

The Vatican has for the first time made it clear that bishops and other high-ranking clergy should report sex abuse by priests to police.

The Vatican has insisted that this has long been the policy of the Roman Catholic Church. But in a new guide for lay readers posted Monday on its website, it made public for the first time an explicit policy of reporting abuse to law enforcement authorities.

The guideline reads: "Civil law concerning reporting of crimes to the appropriate authorities should always be followed."

That wording had not been included in a draft of the guidelines obtained Friday by The Associated Press. The rest of the guidelines follow previously known and public procedures for handling canonical investigations and trials of suspected abuse.

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=23854045
 
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