Is The Papacy Threatened?

[DHK]

Oh, I'm sure you don't want any focus on the filth in you own Baptists churches. Of course you would only want to focus on the Catholic Church. No surprise.

BTW, you have no idea who John Caropi is or what his relationship with Jesus Christ is. You need to stop the hatred and judging of people based on their being Catholic.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The context of verse 20 is not works but doctrine. I can judge a person by the doctrine they believe. There is no hope for a person who is pinning the hope of their salvation on the belief that the new birth is baptism.

You must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven.
It doesn't say you must be baptized as the Catholic Church teaches, and thus send people to hell.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Have you ever heard John Corapi?

I have heard him speak many times on EWTN. He was very much into the drug scene and the party scene, out in hollywood, I believe. He has a testimony similar to mine before I was born again. I really like the guy. I enjoy listening to him. I commend him for his change in life from where he was to where he is now.

Its just a shame that he was drawn into the idolatrous and paganism filled cess pool that is the Catholic Church of Rome.

He could be an absolutely wonderful witness for the true Christ...if he would embrace the true Christ.

Actually, my hope and prayer is that he HAS found the true Christ, and is indeed born of the Spirit. If so, in due time, God will bring him out of Catholicism, and into proper fellowship with the body of Christ.

He would be a great blessing to many

 

[thomas15]

I think the papacy is threatened. I don't know if it is a mortal wound and I doubt it is, but yes it is threatened.

Why do I say this? A couple of observations. First, just a quick sampling of Catholic thinking on this by reading the 1000s of relavant posts on catholic answers.com, Catholics in the field are trying to put on a brave face but are clearly worried. They are saying media hate is driving this. The same media that covers the popes easter and christmas services and every other word out of the mouth of the pope as the official spokesman of christiandom. There are millions of nominal catholics in the world. As this continues to evolve, more will distance themselves, fewer will take their place. Would you join a church where the head is being implicated in a sex scandal?

The previous pope was embroiled in this scandal also. He was a media guy though, he knew how to work the press. In my opinion, pope JP II made loving the pope by catholics "cool". But if you look past the "coolness" of pope JP, what is left as far as achievements? Very little yet there is a big movement within the catholic church to make him a saint. Why? This is a question to ponder. My answer: personality, plain and simple. The present pope, while actually the theologian behind pope JP II does not command the love that JP achieved among the faithful. Catholics try to pretend that this isn't so but the present pope is not the warm fuzzy individual as the previous pope was.

And look at the pope himself. The man looks like he has aged 20 years in the last 6 months.

Media, knowledge of the world, structure of laws and governments and the general accesability of information are different today as in the past. Poeple today have a larger general knowledge of events happening in far off places. 500 years ago, if a person dare criticize the pope he got his head chopped off with the help of the government. There was a general fear of the catholic church even among Kings. Not so today as worse things than being critical of the pope go totally unpunished because the church wants to maintain a clean image with the public. You could say it is the church that now fears public reaction, a complete 180 degree shift from pre-Luther times.

One other thing as an observation. Where there is smoke there is fire. If the catholic church is willing to put up with sex sins to maintain it's image, then it is also putting up with other sins for the same reason. I don't know what those sins are but they are there and will come to light once conditions are right. Until the catholic church is willing to look itself in the mirror and start placing it's trust in the Lord and then let the chips fall where they may, this problem will not go away.

And thats my opinion in the matter. Another poster speculated that the catholic church is in a major transition of change, something on the scale of the reformation. I agree. What we need to do, as the believing church is remember to stay focused on the gospel.

 

[lori4dogs]

I thought this article written by Kendall Harmon (a Christian but not a Catholic) is fair and reasonably balanced.

"A few years later, when the CDF assumed authority over all abuse cases, Cardinal Ratzinger implemented changes that allowed for direct administrative action instead of trials that often took years. Roughly 60% of priests accused of sexual abuse were handled this way. The man who is now pope reopened cases that had been closed; did more than anyone to process cases and hold abusers accountable; and became the first pope to meet with victims. Isn't the more reasonable interpretation of all these events that Cardinal Ratzinger's experience with cases like Murphy's helped lead him to promote reforms that gave the church more effective tools for handling priestly abuse?

That's not to say that the press should be shy, even about Pope Benedict XVI's decisions as archbishop and cardinal. The Murphy case raises hard questions: why it took the archbishops of Milwaukee nearly two decades to suspend Murphy from his ministry; why innocent people whose lives had been shattered by men they are supposed to view as icons of Christ found so little justice; how bishops should deal with an accused clergyman when criminal investigations are inconclusive; how to balance the demands of justice with the Catholic imperative that sins can be forgiven. Oh, yes, maybe some context, and a bit of journalistic skepticism about the narrative of a plaintiffs attorney making millions off these cases.

That's still a story worth pursuing."

 

[BillySunday1935]

snip...There is no hope for a person who is pinning the hope of their salvation on the belief that the new birth is baptism.

You must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven.
It doesn't say you must be baptized as the Catholic Church teaches, and thus send people to hell.

Yes - one must be born again of water and the spirit which, if I have a correct understanding of Catholic dotrine here, is precisely what they teach.

I must respectfully disagree with your statements here as they are not supported by scripture -- at least if one takes scripture in its totallity.

Ezekiel: 36 25-27:
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

What do we have here? We have someone sprinkled with water and through that action, they are made clean from their filthiness, and they receive God’s spirit. This passage from the Old Testament shows us that God, by his own design and not that of men, uses an outward sign to bring about an inward change in his people – a foreshadowing of Baptism in the New Testament. Notice how God in the old covenant was preparing us for what he gives us in the new covenant.

And now, let’s move on to the New Testament to see the correlation.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Clearly, baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ and thus is the entrance into the new covenant with God, just a circumcision was the entrance into the old covenant with God. Scripture makes this connection for us in the following.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches? Once again, let’s go to scripture.

1 Peter 3: 20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Just as Noah and his family were saved by water, water baptism now saves us. There it is; explicitly stated in the Bible. Look at Jesus’ own word in John’s gospel…

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water and the spirit. Hmmm.... Let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after Jesus finished his talk with Nicodemus…

John 3:22
22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

What did Jesus do immediately after telling Nicodemus how he can be saved? He went out baptizing with water. See the context? Baptism is the context in which one must be born of water and the spirit. Further, look at all of the accounts in the gospels about Jesus’ baptism. Jesus is baptized with water and look what happens to him when he comes up out of the water (or is sprinkled)... the spirit descends upon him – water and the spirit.

In Matthew 28:19 what did Jesus say in his final instructions to the apostles? Go therefore and make disciples of all nations getting them to accept me into their hearts as their personal lord and savior? No. It says:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic? Because it is salvific!

God Bless

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes - one must be born again of water and the spirit which, if I have a correct understanding of Catholic dotrine here, is precisely what they teach.

I must respectfully disagree with your statements here as they are not supported by scripture -- at least if one takes scripture in its totallity.

Ezekiel: 36 25-27:
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

What do we have here? We have someone sprinkled with water and through that action, they are made clean from their filthiness, and they receive God’s spirit. This passage from the Old Testament shows us that God, by his own design and not that of men, uses an outward sign to bring about an inward change in his people – a foreshadowing of Baptism in the New Testament. Notice how God in the old covenant was preparing use for what he gives us in the new covenant.

And now, let’s move on to the New Testament to see the correlation.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Clearly, baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ and thus is the entrance into the new covenant with God, just a circumcision was the entrance into the old covenant with God. Scripture makes this connection for us in the following.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches? Once again, let’s go to scripture.

1 Peter 3: 20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Just as Noah and his family were saved by water, water baptism now saves us. There it is; explicitly stated in the Bible. Look at Jesus’ own word in John’s gospel…

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water and the spirit. Hmmm.... Let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after Jesus finished his talk with Nicodemus…

John 3:22
22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

What did Jesus do immediately after telling Nicodemus how he can be saved? He went out baptizing with water. See the context? Baptism is the context in which one must be born of water and the spirit. Further, look at all of the accounts in the gospels about Jesus’ baptism. Jesus is baptized with water and look what happens to him when he comes up out of the water (or is sprinkled)... the spirit descends upon him – water and the spirit.

In Matthew 28:19 what did Jesus say in his final instructions to the apostles? Go therefore and make disciples of all nations getting them to accept me into their hearts as their personal lord and savior? No. It says:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic? Because it is salvific!

God Bless

I don't think Billy Sunday would agree with you. Water is not salvific but a converted and be totally surrendered to Jesus Christs was the heart of Billy Sunday's message.

 

[BillySunday1935]

I don't think Billy Sunday would agree with you. Water is not salvific but a converted and be totally surrendered to Jesus Christs was the heart of Billy Sunday's message.

Well, I think I've shown that it is - and directly from scripture. :thumbsup:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, I think I've shown that it is - and directly from scripture. :thumbsup:

I'm just pointing out the discrepancy between your Avatar name and your belief about water baptism. BTW you haven't "proved" anything.

As you'll see in the next post.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Ezekiel: 36 25-27:
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Good verse but note what John the baptist is doing in Matthew 3:11a :

11"I baptize you with water for repentance.

It is clear that during the intertestimental period that "baptism" was used as a cleansing ritual signifying repentance. It is verses like Ezekiel 36 that found fruition in this rite of John's also practiced by the Essenes. Look further at what Luke 3 says

4As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
5Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.
6And all mankind will see God's salvation.' "[a]
7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him

What kind of baptism?

8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance

Baptism is about repentance and the cleansing that comes with repentance not that it effects repentance. Note your quote here

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Is it the repentance that provides for the remision of sins or the baptism? I assure you its the former. baptism is the symbolic "cleansing" of sin or showing the repentant sinner that they are cleansed by God. Note This passage you quote proves the meaning which I am showing

Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Again the person has repentant and now the ritual shows they are forgiven. It doesen't Affect forgiveness. Big difference. [QUOTEScripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit][/QUOTE] I disagree. Repentance is the catalyst not the ritual.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

note this verse you quoted. "For by one Spirit" Not "for by water are we all baptized into one body" obviously its the Holy Spirit that the believer is emmersed in that places them into one body rather than the ritual of baptism.

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

You still have to prove that the circumcision of Christ is baptism rather than repentatance or being born from above given a new heart. Circumcision of the heart.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

In this passage what is the operation of God? Water? no but Faith. Water means nothing it is faith that is the operation of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I don't think this passage clearly indicates what you think. Born of Water? Possibly how man is born from placenta and then born again? And even so if it relates to baptism; baptism is the proclimation of whose we are. So baptism in Jesus day is about repentance and indicating to the believer that they were forgiven. But then there is the baptism of the Spirit. There is the baptism of Death there is the baptism of trial by fire. All of which the apostles used in their discourse to get accross a simple idea.

 

[BillySunday1935]

I'm just pointing out the discrepancy between your Avatar name and your belief about water baptism.

Why would one's user name have any bearing on logical discourse...

BTW you haven't "proved" anything.

I never used that word - I said that I think I have shown from scripture that Baptism is salvific. Please try "quoting" me accurately in the future.

As you'll see in the next post.

Indeed! I would appreciate you addressing the scripture and exigesis that I provided. That would certainly be more productive than worrying about my user name. :laugh:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Why would one's user name have any bearing on logical discourse...



I never used that word - I said that I think I have shown from scripture that Baptism is salvific. Please try "quoting" me accurately in the future.



Indeed! I would appreciate you addressing the scripture and exigesis that I provided. That would certainly be more productive than worrying about my user name. :laugh:

I assume your user name is chosen because of your affinity to that man and his belief and system of belief. True, its an assumption however it seems a reasonable one at that. However, in your case though you may admire the person for a reason it doesn't seem to be due to his theology but rather something else based on your believe about water baptism. Sorry I said proved when I should have said that you've not shown based on your exegete of scripture. plus in my next post I did use your quoted scripture if you noticed as well as inserted a view of mine for a more rounded view. :tongue3:

 

[BillySunday1935]

ezekiel: 36 25-27:
25 then will i sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: From all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will i cleanse you.

26 a new heart also will i give you, and a new spirit will i put within you: And i will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and i will give you an heart of flesh.

27 and i will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Good verse but note what John the baptist is doing in Matthew 3:11a :

11"I baptize you with water for repentance.

It is clear that during the intertestimental period that "baptism" was used as a cleansing ritual signifying repentance. It is verses like Ezekiel 36 that found fruition in this rite of John's also practiced by the Essenes.

Agreed! That is the part of the old covenant to which I referred.

Look further at what Luke 3 says

4As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
5Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.
6And all mankind will see God's salvation.' "[a]
7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him

What kind of baptism?

8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance

Baptism is about repentance and the cleansing that comes with repentance not that it effects repentance.

Well, let’s look at Luke 3:7-9 in context…

7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

9The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

John is speaking of works here and that those who do not “produce good fruit” [good works] will be thrown into hell. It just doesn’t say what you are attempting to make it say.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Is it the repentance that provides for the remision of sins or the baptism? I assure you its the former. baptism is the symbolic "cleansing" of sin or showing the repentant sinner that they are cleansed by God. Note This passage you quote proves the meaning which I am showing.

Repentance is required - as is baptism. There is nothing contrary to the salvific nature of baptism in that passage. Ironically, the verse is crystal clear: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS.” And what do we then receive?the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Again the person has repentant and now the ritual shows they are forgiven. It doesen't Affect forgiveness. It doen’t affect forgiveness. It is, however, set up by God himself to confer grace and, hence, forgiveness.

Big difference. Gods grace affects forgiveness.

Yes - however, God uses Baptism to confer that grace, as is clearly indicated in the very scripture that you are addressing. Here it is again: “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” This is consistent throughout scripture.

Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit

I disagree. Repentance is the catalyst not the ritual.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

note this verse you quoted. "For by one Spirit" Not "for by water are we all baptized into one body" obviously its the Holy Spirit that the believer is emmersed in that places them into one body rather than the ritual of baptism.

The scripture here does not say that - it is referring to being baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit through Baptism.
"13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ..."

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

You still have to prove that the circumcision of Christ is baptism rather than repentatance or being born from above given a new heart. Circumcision of the heart.

Sure – just look at the next verse.
"12 Buried with him in baptism..."

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I don't think this passage clearly indicates what you think. Born of Water? Possibly how man is born from placenta and then born again?

Are you saying that the water spoken of here is placental fluid? Show me where that occurs in scripture.

And even so if it relates to baptism; baptism is the proclimation of whose we are. So baptism in Jesus day is about repentance and indicating to the believer that they were forgiven. But then there is the baptism of the Spirit. There is the baptism of Death there is the baptism of trial by fire. All of which the apostles used in their discourse to get accross a simple idea.

Again I point you back to Jesus’ own baptism. Did he need to repent? No! And what happened directly after he arose from the water? The spirit descended upon him from above. Water AND the Spirit. It’s pretty simple really.

In summation:
From Scripture we know that the baptismal rite instituted by Christ is a sacramental rite; it is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace, a grace that sanctifies the soul and makes it pleasing to God (1 Pet. 3:21; 2 Pet. 1:4). We also read in John 3:5 and Mark 16:16 where Christ says "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God," and "he who believes and is baptized will be saved." Then we read in Acts 19:1-6 and 22:16; Romans 6:3-4, 11; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 12:13; and Galatians 3:26-27, where Paul says baptism frees us from sin, makes us children of God, gives us new life, and incorporates us into the Body of Christ. In Titus 3:5, Paul again refers to baptism as the "washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God" (CCC 1215). In Colossians 2:11-12, Paul declares that baptism is "the circumcision of Christ": "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Yes - one must be born again of water and the spirit which, if I have a correct understanding of Catholic dotrine here, is precisely what they teach.

I must respectfully disagree with your statements here as they are not supported by scripture -- at least if one takes scripture in its totallity.

Your profile says that you are SBC. Are you? No Baptist that I know takes the position you do. Are you sure you are not a Church of Christ come in disguise?

Ezekiel: 36 25-27:

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

What do we have here? We have someone sprinkled with water and through that action, they are made clean from their filthiness, and they receive God’s spirit. This passage from the Old Testament shows us that God, by his own design and not that of men, uses an outward sign to bring about an inward change in his people – a foreshadowing of Baptism in the New Testament. Notice how God in the old covenant was preparing us for what he gives us in the new covenant.

And now, let’s move on to the New Testament to see the correlation.

This is an allegoric passage from the OT. It is addressed to the Jews, not the Christians and has nothing to do with baptism. You are really reaching here.

Acts 2:38

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These are the same old passages that both the COC and the RCC use. So which do you belong to. We have explained them many times here on this board, and kind of tire of it every time a newbie comes along. You could search the archives. Let me reiterate, no Baptist takes the position you do.
Nevertheless, in the passage you have highlighted, the word "for" is the Greek word "eis."
The same word is used is used in Mat. 3:11.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
The word "unto" is "eis"
Did John baptize because it would bring them repentance?
Did John baptize because they had repented?
The answer is obvious.
A few verses earlier he says:

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
--He demanded that they bring for the evidence of their repentance and then he would baptize them, and not until then. The word "eis" could mean: "on the basis of," or "on account of" or "because of."

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for ("because of the" the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
--IOW: "Because you have already have had your sins forgiven."
That is the meaning of the verse.

Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

CONTEXT! Context is very important, and if you leave context out of the picture you have nothing.
Paul is giving his testimony to the Jews: Look before when he starts:

Acts 22:7-8 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

And again:
Acts 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

In Romans 10:13, Paul himself taught: "Whosoever shall call upon the name shall be saved. Paul could not have called upon Christ as Lord if he were not saved. This is where the conversion of Paul took place, up here in verses 8-10, where he calls Jesus "Lord." That is where he called upon Christ as "Lord."

Again if you study the grammar of Acts 22:16 in the Greek you will find it teaching something else than you proclaim it is.

Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit.

Not once does it ever say that; only in your imagination.

1 Corinthians 12:13

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The "body of Christ" here is a specific body, the church at Corinth. Its members are specific to the body that he was painting. Not everyone could be its pastors, deacons, and have the same position of service.
--1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Corinthians 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
--This is only true in a local church. There are only two eyes. Someone else had to be the feet. Each one in the local body had to exercise their own spiritual gift so that the body, the local church in Corinth, would function in unity.

1 Corinthians 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
--This is only true in a local church where we all know one another. It is impossible for one believe to know the sufferings of other believers half way around the world. But we all suffer together when one of our own members suffer. This is the picture of a local church.

Thus in verse 13
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
the word "spirit," need not be capitalized, and may very well be the spirit of unity, as it is speaking of the unity of Jews and Gentiles, the bond and free--we are all one in Christ.

 

[DHK]

Galatians 3:27

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I was baptized into Christ when I was saved.
It didn't take water for that to happen. The Holy Spirit came and dwelt within me by the power of Christ.

Clearly, baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ and thus is the entrance into the new covenant with God, just a circumcision was the entrance into the old covenant with God. Scripture makes this connection for us in the following.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches? Once again, let’s go to scripture.

None of this proves baptism is salvic. It only proves that there is a spiritual baptism, that perhaps you know nothing of. If you think that baptism saves you then you are pinning your hope of salvation on the wrong object. Baptism does not save. It will get you wet; but it cannot save.

1 Peter 3: 20-21

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Just as Noah and his family were saved by water, water baptism now saves us. There it is; explicitly stated in the Bible. Look at Jesus’ own word in John’s gospel…

Notice the words "the like figure..."
They indicate an illustration. Baptism is an illustration of what just happened. What happened? The salvation of Noah was a salvation from physical destruction. The water didn't save them. The ark did. The ark saved them from the water.
In the next verse baptism saves us...not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. That is plain. But what is it that really saves? By the resurrection of Jesus Christ! In fact it is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not baptism or immersion. Christ is the ark. The ark saved from destruction.

John 3:5

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water and the spirit. Hmmm.... Let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after Jesus finished his talk with Nicodemus…

John 3:22
22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

What did Jesus do immediately after telling Nicodemus how he can be saved? He went out baptizing with water. See the context? Baptism is the context in which one must be born of water and the spirit. Further, look at all of the accounts in the gospels about Jesus’ baptism. Jesus is baptized with water and look what happens to him when he comes up out of the water (or is sprinkled)... the spirit descends upon him – water and the spirit.

You are wrong. John 3:22 is far from the context.
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
--We don't know how much time lapsed from verse 21 to verse 22. It is clear it was some time. He was in Jerusalem when he spoke to Nicodemus. Verse 22 states that they came in the land of Judea, and then they tarried. That is not immediately after speaking to Nicodemus. It is far out of context. The original Greek did not have chapter divisions. This could have been the start of another chapter.

The farthest thing from the mind of Nicodemus would have been baptism, he being a rabbi, a teacher of the Jews. The location was Jerusalem, and he was likely near the Temple where there were many ceremonial washings going on. Water is symbolic of washing--the washing of the Word. (Psalm 119:9; John 15:3)

In Matthew 28:19 what did Jesus say in his final instructions to the apostles? Go therefore and make disciples of all nations getting them to accept me into their hearts as their personal lord and savior? No. It says:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic? Because it is salvific!

God Bless

Not because it is salvic; but because it is a step of obedience after salvation. Even the Great Commission bears this out. I think you need to be honest and change your profile to what you really are: COC or RCC. Which one?

 

[BillySunday1935]

Your profile says that you are SBC. Are you? No Baptist that I know takes the position you do. Are you sure you are not a Church of Christ come in disguise?

Well then, you don’t know me do you. I was born and raised in the SBC.

Ezekiel: 36 25-27:

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

What do we have here? We have someone sprinkled with water and through that action, they are made clean from their filthiness, and they receive God’s spirit. This passage from the Old Testament shows us that God, by his own design and not that of men, uses an outward sign to bring about an inward change in his people – a foreshadowing of Baptism in the New Testament. Notice how God in the old covenant was preparing us for what he gives us in the new covenant.

And now, let’s move on to the New Testament to see the correlation.

This is an allegoric passage from the OT. It is addressed to the Jews, not the Christians and has nothing to do with baptism. You are really reaching here.

Please go back and re-read what I wrote … “a foreshadowing of Baptism in the New Testament.” Have you never heard of “types” in exegesis? (I.e. Adam was a type of Christ, etc.)

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These are the same old passages that both the COC and the RCC use.

And the fact that you've heard them before somehow invalidates them?

So which do you belong to[?]. We have explained them many times here on this board, and kind of tire of it every time a newbie comes along

Then why are you here?

You could search the archives. Let me reiterate, no Baptist takes the position you do.

Let ME reiterate - I do.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
The word "unto" is "eis"
Did John baptize because it would bring them repentance?
Did John baptize because they had repented?
The answer is obvious.

Is this a trick question? Why it's the former of course.

A few verses earlier he says:

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

--He demanded that they bring for the evidence of their repentance and then he would baptize them, and not until then. The word "eis" could mean: "on the basis of," or "on account of" or "because of."

And what would that evidence be - a note from their parents or something?
Amazing!

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for ("because of the" the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
--IOW: "Because you have already have had your sins forgiven."
That is the meaning of the verse.

Well, when you insert your own writings into the verse… “because of the…" then I can see how you might come to that conclusion. Fortunately, those are your words and not those of scripture.

Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

CONTEXT! Context is very important, and if you leave context out of the picture you have nothing.
Paul is giving his testimony to the Jews: Look before when he starts:

Acts 22:7-8 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Amen!

And again:

Acts 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

Amen again!

In Romans 10:13, Paul himself taught: "Whosoever shall call upon the name shall be saved. Paul could not have called upon Christ as Lord if he were not saved. This is where the conversion of Paul took place, up here in verses 8-10, where he calls Jesus "Lord." That is where he called upon Christ as "Lord."

Paul also taught salvific baptism – go back and look at my summary in the previous post and see the voluminous scripture indicating that very thing. Scripture does not contradict itself.

Again if you study the grammar of Acts 22:16 in the Greek you will find it teaching something else than you proclaim it is.

Oh – and what of those millions of Christians out there who cannot speak Greek or have no access to a lexicon? Would God set things up so as to confuse them? Me thinks not.

Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit.

Not once does it ever say that; only in your imagination.

Well, read it again then…

1 Peter 3: 20-21 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure [he's making an analogy here] whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The "body of Christ" here is a specific body, the church at Corinth. Its members are specific to the body that he was painting. Not everyone could be its pastors, deacons, and have the same position of service.

--1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Corinthians 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
--This is only true in a local church. There are only two eyes. Someone else had to be the feet. Each one in the local body had to exercise their own spiritual gift so that the body, the local church in Corinth, would function in unity.

Don’t you hold that the Body of Christ is made up all believers?

1 Corinthians 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

--This is only true in a local church where we all know one another. It is impossible for one believe to know the sufferings of other believers half way around the world. But we all suffer together when one of our own members suffer. This is the picture of a local church.

No – the text is very clear. This is yet another analogy (and scripture is repleat with them) - just as if one of the members of your body suffers (as from an gangrenous appendage) the whole body will necessarily suffer. If one person in the body of Christ sins all are diminished and the converse is also true.

Thus in verse 13

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

the word "spirit," need not be capitalized, and may very well be the spirit of unity, as it is speaking of the unity of Jews and Gentiles, the bond and free--we are all one in Christ.

But you just got through stating that the body spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:26 was one Church. You cannot have it both ways.

God Bless

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, let’s look at Luke 3:7-9 in context…

7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

9The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

John is speaking of works here and that those who do not “produce good fruit” [good works] will be thrown into hell. It just doesn’t say what you are attempting to make it say.

Yes the works that result in repentance. Not baptism. It says exactly what I suggested that it does.

Repentance is required - as is baptism. There is nothing contrary to the salvific nature of baptism in that passage. Ironically, the verse is crystal clear: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS.” And what do we then receive?the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.

Indeed repentance is required baptism is a result of repentance not the other way round. Salvation come in the form of "repent" and be baptized part of it is the resulting action not affecting salvation. Consider the theif on the cross. There is no baptism for him however none claim that he wasn't saved.

Yes - however, God uses Baptism to confer that grace, as is clearly indicated in the very scripture that you are addressing. Here it is again: “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” This is consistent throughout scripture.

The term Confering Grace sounds sacramental rather than ordinational. Sacraments confer grace by participating in the act of the sacrament. Baptism is a resulting obedience to a grace that has already been confered on the believer. Baptism just shows what has already occured. Its a witness.

The scripture here does not say that - it is referring to being baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit through Baptism.

Scripture says exactly that. Its refering to being already in a state of Grace through the spirit where then we are baptised into the same unified body of Christ. Baptism is the witness in this case.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body

then you say

Sure – just look at the next verse.
"12 Buried with him in baptism..."

verse 12 begins an advancing in flow of thought not a definition of modern exchange of circumsision.

Are you saying that the water spoken of here is placental fluid? Show me where that occurs in scripture.

Note I said Possibly. Though it is a common thought of the cultures of that day. It would make a good contrast ie born both of woman and of the spirit since our mortals selves are stillborn we need the "blowing" of the Holy Spirit to make us omnes animas.

Again I point you back to Jesus’ own baptism. Did he need to repent? No! And what happened directly after he arose from the water? The spirit descended upon him from above.

And what did Jesus say to John the baptist? He wanted to fulfill all righteousness. His baptism lead the way of obedience to the Will of God. And ask yourself this. If Baptism is necissary for salvation why didn't Jesus baptize? And why did Paul say his mission was not to baptize? Because what is important is the baptism in the Holy Spirit (not pentecostal thinking here) or being born from above.

 

[Trotter]

Well then, you don’t know me do you. I was born and raised in the SBC.

Born and raised doesn't mean diddly. What you are espousing is heretical in the highest order according to Baptist (ANY Baptist) teaching. I am a SBC minister and can flatly tell you that your doctrine is not Baptist. Catholic, CoC, and some others, yes... but not Baptist and not biblical.

Yes, Christians are to born of water and Spirit. Water denotes the natural birth, the amniotic fluid that surround a baby in the womb. This fluid gushes forth just before birth (normally). The Spiritual birth has nothing to do with the natural birth.

Baptism is an outward show of an inward change and nothing more. Yes, it is commanded and we should be obedient... but it is not a part of salvation itself.

 

[BillySunday1935]

I was baptized into Christ when I was saved.
It didn't take water for that to happen. The Holy Spirit came and dwelt within me by the power of Christ.

I was saved at my Baptism by the grace of God (power of Christ). The Holy Spirit came and now dwells within me.

Clearly, baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ and thus is the entrance into the new covenant with God, just a circumcision was the entrance into the old covenant with God. Scripture makes this connection for us in the following.
Quote:

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches? Once again, let’s go to scripture.

None of this proves baptism is salvic. It only proves that there is a spiritual baptism, that perhaps you know nothing of. If you think that baptism saves you then you are pinning your hope of salvation on the wrong object. Baptism does not save. It will get you wet; but it cannot save.

Well, proving the salvific nature of Baptism was not my point as I stated in the last sentence above. The scriptures quoted indicate that we are baptized into the body of Christ.

1 Peter 3: 20-21
Quote:
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Just as Noah and his family were saved by water, water baptism now saves us. There it is; explicitly stated in the Bible. Look at Jesus’ own word in John’s gospel…
Notice the words "the like figure..."
They indicate an illustration. Baptism is an illustration of what just happened. What happened? The salvation of Noah was a salvation from physical destruction. The water didn't save them. The ark did. The ark saved them from the water.
In the next verse baptism saves us...not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. That is plain. But what is it that really saves? By the resurrection of Jesus Christ! In fact it is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not baptism or immersion. Christ is the ark. The ark saved from destruction.

No - the words "…the like figure..." indicate an analogy. Please see my previous post.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water and the spirit. Hmmm.... Let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after Jesus finished his talk with Nicodemus…

John 3:22
22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

What did Jesus do immediately after telling Nicodemus how he can be saved? He went out baptizing with water. See the context? Baptism is the context in which one must be born of water and the spirit. Further, look at all of the accounts in the gospels about Jesus’ baptism. Jesus is baptized with water and look what happens to him when he comes up out of the water (or is sprinkled)... the spirit descends upon him – water and the spirit.

You are wrong. John 3:22 is far from the context.
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

--We don't know how much time lapsed from verse 21 to verse 22. It is clear it was some time. He was in Jerusalem when he spoke to Nicodemus. Verse 22 states that they came in the land of Judea, and then they tarried. That is not immediately after speaking to Nicodemus. It is far out of context. The original Greek did not have chapter divisions. This could have been the start of another chapter.

The chronology of this verse is completely divorced from the context as is chapter/verse structure. I don’t buy your argument at all here.

The farthest thing from the mind of Nicodemus would have been baptism, he being a rabbi, a teacher of the Jews. The location was Jerusalem, and he was likely near the Temple where there were many ceremonial washings going on. Water is symbolic of washing--the washing of the Word. (Psalm 119:9; John 15:3)

If I’m not mistaken, Nicodemus was inquiring as to what Jesus meant by being born again and not about what the Jews practiced – he most certainly already knew that. What's the significance of your statement?

In Matthew 28:19 what did Jesus say in his final instructions to the apostles? Go therefore and make disciples of all nations getting them to accept me into their hearts as their personal lord and savior? No. It says:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic? Because it is salvific!

God Bless

Not because it is salvic; but because it is a step of obedience after salvation. Even the Great Commission bears this out.

Where is rthe scripture stating that baptism "...is a step of obedience after salvation." That's simply you interpretation and one with which I completely disagree.

I think you need to be honest and change your profile to what you really are: COC or RCC. Which one?

As a Baptist I was taught that a person could take scripture and interpret it for oneself as guided by the Holy Spirit. Has this changed? Did I miss the memo?

 

[BillySunday1935]

Born and raised doesn't mean diddly. What you are espousing is heretical in the highest order according to Baptist (ANY Baptist) teaching. I am a SBC minister and can flatly tell you that your doctrine is not Baptist. Catholic, CoC, and some others, yes... but not Baptist and not biblical.

So you say...

Yes, Christians are to born of water and Spirit. Water denotes the natural birth, the amniotic fluid that surround a baby in the womb. This fluid gushes forth just before birth (normally). The Spiritual birth has nothing to do with the natural birth.

Do you care to show me that directly from scripture - that the water spoken of here is amniotic fluid?

Baptism is an outward show of an inward change and nothing more. Yes, it is commanded and we should be obedient... but it is not a part of salvation itself.

Then please address the scriptures and exegesis that I provided!

God Bless!

 

[Trotter]

You gave eisegesis, not exegesis. Learn the difference and then we can talk.