is the SDA Church then a cult?

[Yeshua1]

Adonia what do you mean by "your sect"?

we Baptists, splinters off the "one true Church"

 

[Yeshua1]

Cult is to religion as neurotic is to psychology. The words can be defined so broadly that anyone or any organization qualifies.

there are some common points that all Bible Cults have in common...
have the Bible, but their own leaders/prophets/apostles have equal authority to the scriptures, and many times even superior to them
Seen as being the true church
Salvation found only in their church
teaching false Gospel, mixing faith and good works
So Mormons/JW/Sda/Rcc all fitr the bill!

 

[Yeshua1]

You would never have said that if you really knew any baptists . "Baptists" as a whole group do not get along enough to be a sect. The term is a distinctive (there is no "Baptist" denomination but several baptistic denominations , many thinking they are not one. Baptists have existed outside of the Catholic Church. They were probably not baptists "like us", which is what gets people into trouble.

Everyone wants to pretend they are like the first church, but the first church does not exist as an organizational entity (to include the Catholic Church, which is not today anything like it was in the past either). There is no record of the actual Catholic Church (as we use the term today) existing for the first couple centuries after Christ's resurrection. The 11th Century Catholic church was nothing like the 5th Century Catholic Church and neither is anything like the 16th century Catholic Church. But they (Catholics) are like some Baptists in that they like to pretend that they are the "original" Church. Both have created a history to claim what is not actually theirs by right, but it does not really matter.

I say if it helps them let them. Churches do not save, Jesus saves.

I consider "cults" to be not only sects but sects that have a doctrine that is unorthodox to the point it denies the gospel. Until the BB I had not considered SDA to fit into that category, but I also do not know much about them.

they see themselves as being the true remnant Church
They elevate Ellen White to be on par with Bible Apostles for doctrines
They require OT diet laws be followed
They require Sabbath observance
They deny eternal Hell/hold to Soul Sleep
They deny Gospel of grace, as they hold to final investigative judgment, where god determines if the person upheld Sda doctrines well enough to continue to merit salvation
Cult, same as Mormons and JW!

 

[Yeshua1]

No. You use the term to refer to the Catholic Church as betrayed by your posts here. Otherwise it would be impossible for a Christian to leave the Catholic Church (histoircally it has meant the "universal" church, not the religious organization that was formed by the Roman Empire in the 4th century AD). The Catholic Church has claimed a history that was not theirs. So do some baptists.


Like I said, I am not trying to get you to look outside of wherever you are. I believe that God has people where He needs them, or where they need to be. It's like Cypher said in the Matrix - "ignorance is bliss".

The Catholic Church grew out of the catholic church, but at the same time it became something else.

You are speaking of Smyth, BTW, who was a baptist (not sure what type) for a very short time and wanted to join the Mennonites (but never did). Hence your confusion (Mennonites and Anabaptists are baptists - but not necessarily the other way around). A "baptist" is someone who affirms "believers baptism". Some add other criteria to this, but basically believers baptism is always the common distinctive.

I hold to a universal "catholic" church made up of all of the redeemed, but not the Church of Rome!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't see much frespect from you Romanists, who are here under false colours, Non Baptist Christians.


From another board:
Even Romanists baptised adults. Augustine who is often reported that Augustine brought Christianity to England. That is a blatant lie. Augustine brought Catholicism to England. There was already a church here amongst the Britons. Augustine baptised 10,000, it is said in the River*8 Swale in Kent in which cluding the Saxon King of Kent. It is also said he baptised 10,000 in the River Swale in Yorkshire, including the King of Northumbria. When he went to Wales to try to convert the Christians there and they refused, he murdered 1,000 of them.
Note*1, Although the history books say 10,000, when I hve seen t written it was XM
Note **2, The Swale in Kent is not a river but a strip of water between the Isle of Sheppey and the Mainland.

From the above you will see that there were true Christians here before Catholicism.

You Romanists are on this board sailing under false colours, (Non Baptist Christians)

A sare those among us in the Sda!

 

[Yeshua1]

Many live in fantasy worlds. I am not one of them (I do not believe my church as a denomination or organization began two thousand years ago). My Church as the Bride, however, did.

Baptists can also provide a line of leaders from the time the Roman Catholic Church departed from the catholic church (in the 4th century) onward. But they are living the same fantasy that Catholics live. They reach back to claim a history that is theirs but in a way that does not belong to them. It is sad because it shows a stark misunderstanding of the nature of the Church and the Kingdom as described by Christ.

I am just glad people are saved and added to the true catholic church despite the false doctrines taught by these people (whether Catholic or baptist).

Of course you cannot find anyone who was a member of the Protestant movement prior to the Protestant movement. Do you realize how stupid that statement is????

BUT you also cannot find a Roman Catholic prior to the 4th century and you can find Christians who were outside of the Catholic Church and in protest to its doctrine throughout history (if you are able to look outside your fantasy world).

What you can find is that the early church doctrines and practices were taken from the Apostles and scriptures themselves, so we as Baptists are following that!

 

[Walpole]

What you can find is that the early church doctrines and practices were taken from the Apostles and scriptures themselves, so we as Baptists are following that!

This is a joke, yes?


Other than believing in baptismal regeneration, the Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ, the efficacy of the Sacraments, the ordained episcopate, priesthood and diaconate, the practice of celibacy and clerical continence, Apostolic succession as necessary to safeguard the faith and valid Sacraments, the bishop of Rome as the authority over the Church universal, and the authority of the Church, I guess you could say the early Church were Baptists!

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is the difference (hopefully to get back on the SDA topic):

I do not believe Catholic doctrine to be Christian because of how far it has gone over the centuries. As a church, the Catholic Church came into existence in the 4th century encompassing Christians within the Roman Empire. They assimilated Christianity in a way (a priest once told me that they made the “profane” holy, but we were talking about Roman paganism in Catholic tradition). If you like star trek, the Catholic Church was like the Borg . Christians were in the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church itself not “Christian” (within the empire you were a Christian regardless of personal conviction or belief).

But the gospel was and is there. People can be saved through Catholic doctrine.

I assume the same is true of SDA teaching. I do not know the extent of the teachings but there are some things that I do believe are wrong. But just not believing rightly does not make the gospel powerless. If the gospel is there then one can be saved in that sect.

The same is true of the Church of Christ, Presbyterians, and even Reformed Baptists (although that may be pushing it a bit ).

The same is not true of JW’s, Muslim, Mormons, Bahá’í, Buddhists, Wikians, and atheists (to name a few) because their doctrine does not proclaim the gospel. That is what is important – the gospel of Christ. It may be couched in erroneous doctrines (to some extent, I expect all are). But it has to be there.

Sda teach the Gospel per Ellen White though, not that of the Apostles of Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Then you failed to grasp the meaning of my statements.

The JW and Mormons (like the Catholic Church) were an off shoot of Christianity. Like Catholic doctrine their doctrines contained some biblical teachings but also many more extra-biblical ideas. Like Catholics they look to their "church" and leaders to tell them what to believe. Like Catholics they believe a false history that lays claim to what does not truly belong to them. And like Catholics they believe it based on the authority of their church.

But unlike Catholic doctrine theirs is absent the gospel. So no, a JW and a Mormon cannot be saved by their doctrine because without the gospel it is powerless to save.

The RCC has reinvented itself so many times no one knows how it will be in the future. I do not know as a fact that it can be called "Christian" today, but I believe at least the gospel remains present. That is what many RCC members do not grasp. Theirs is the RCC of the 4th century, the 11th century or even the 16th century ONLY in name. The mennonite church is older than the current RCC.

But organization is not what constitutes a church. Denomination is not what constitutes a church. All Christians legitimately hold claim to belonging to the only true Church which is not the Catholic Church (yours) , the SBC (mine), or any other organization.

Bottom line on the RCC is that she at the Council of Trent declared her theology to be apostate!

 

[Yeshua1]

This is a joke, yes?


Other than believing in baptismal regeneration, the Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ, the efficacy of the Sacraments, the ordained episcopate, priesthood and diaconate, the practice of celibacy and clerical continence, Apostolic succession as necessary to safeguard the faith and valid Sacraments, the bishop of Rome as the authority over the Church universal, and the authority of the Church, I guess you could say the early Church were Baptists!

They were Baptistlike in their founding era, before Rome mixed paganism/State/scriptures in unholy union!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes don't forget to preach Martin Luther's whole Gospel.

On the Jews and Their Lies

On the Jews and Their Lies - Wikipedia


Remember Martin Luther says its a sin if you do not murder Jews.
"[w]e are at fault in not slaying them"
Martin Luther and antisemitism - Wikipedia


We can see where Reformation got its Good Ol' nazi-like ideas like Calvinism.
sieg heil!


The best saint reformist could come up with is a nazi.

Funny, the greatest Calvinist of all was Apostle Paul ,and did not know he was a Nazi!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are making my point! I doubt you agree with what the Church at Nicea proclaimed about itself. Here are a few:

- Declared Christ as the same substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) of the Father - contra sola Scriptura (Ecthesis of the Council) - contrary to sola Scriptura
- Supported the discipline of celibacy and clerical continence (Canon 3)
- Instructed on preserving valid Apostolic succession by requiring three bishops present for the consecration of subsequent bishops (Canon 4)
- Declaring Rome as the authority to grant jurisdiction to other Churches (Canon 6)
- Ruled on ordaining men to the priesthood (Canons 9 & 10)
- Instructed on giving viaticum to the dying (Canon 13)
- Instructed regarding catechumens (Canon 14)
- Affirmed the ordained episcopate, priesthood and deaconate (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the Eucharist as the literal “Body of Christ" (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the priests and bishops as they who "offer" the Eucharistic sacrifice. (Canon 18)


No Protestant sect that I know of believes these canons. Hence it appears that most Protestants either do not know what it is they are professing, or they do not actually believe what it is they claim to profess.

We confess the scriptures alone!

 

[Yeshua1]

They taught the truth and to reject it makes you a cultist.

No, its to reject the scriptures themselves what both Rome and Sda do!

 

[Yeshua1]

The Ecumenical Creeds define Christianity. To reject them places you outside of the Church.

The ONLY creed and confess that we must heed are the inspired scriptures themselves!

 

[Yeshua1]

You do not grasp them or their importance. Obviously.

Do you elevate them on par with sacred scriptures?

 

[Walpole]

They were Baptistlike in their founding era, before Rome mixed paganism/State/scriptures in unholy union!

I guess other than believing in baptismal regeneration, the Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ, the efficacy of the Sacraments, the ordained episcopate, priesthood and diaconate, the practice of celibacy and clerical continence, having a liturgy focused on the Eucharistic sacrifice, Apostolic succession as necessary to safeguard the faith and valid Sacraments, the authority of the Church and the bishop of Rome as the authority over the Church universal, I suppose you could say the early Church was Baptistlike!

 

[1689Dave]

The ONLY creed and confess that we must heed are the inspired scriptures themselves!

But the ECs define the Trinity, And Deity of Christ according to the scriptures. To reject them is to reject the scriptures.

 

[1689Dave]

No, its to reject the scriptures themselves what both Rome and Sda do!

Study the creeds and prove they do not say exactly what the scriptures say.

 

[Yeshua1]

I guess other than believing in baptismal regeneration, the Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ, the efficacy of the Sacraments, the ordained episcopate, priesthood and diaconate, the practice of celibacy and clerical continence, having a liturgy focused on the Eucharistic sacrifice, Apostolic succession as necessary to safeguard the faith and valid Sacraments, the authority of the Church and the bishop of Rome as the authority over the Church universal, I suppose you could say the early Church was Baptistlike!

jesus NEVER intended there to be Apostolic succession, as ONLY His 12 and Paul were to be seen as being Apostles of His, as it was and is their teaching and the scriptures alone that we need!
The ONLY infallible interpreter of the scriptures is not the Church of Rome, nor the JW watchtower, but the Holy Spirit Himself!

 

[Walpole]

jesus NEVER intended there to be Apostolic succession, as ONLY His 12 and Paul were to be seen as being Apostles of His, as it was and is their teaching and the scriptures alone that we need!

What is the first thing the Apostles (led by Peter) do after returning to Jerusalem after our Lord's glorious ascension?

a. Appoint a successor to Judas
b. Have lunch
c. Celebrate


St. Peter ---> “For it is written in the Book of Psalms, ‘May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it’; and 'Let another take his office.’" (Acts 1:20)