Is theology SUPPOSED to be simple?

[quantumfaith]

Again, I consider this arrogance. "God, I know your word says that you gave us teachers for our understanding, but I think I know better than you."

The scriptures tell us how we know we are saved. And it is not just some "feeling" (that's just lunch not agreeing with you...). We know it, by examining ourselves. Many Jesus confessing individuals will be utterly surprised at his return, believing themselves to be saved, when they are not. You cannot trust your feelings, and you cannot trust your heart.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God (I Corithians 2:12)

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? (I Corinthians 2:11)

 

[Jerome]

Charles Spurgeon, "Christ Lifted Up" (John 12:32):

Christ wants us not to preach learning, but to preach the good word of life in the simplest manner possible. Why, if I could only get lords and ladies to listen to me, by preaching to them so that they alone could understand me, there! they might go, and I would not so much as snap my finger for them all. I would desire so to preach that the servant maid can understand, that the coachman can understand, that the poor and illiterate may hear readily and gladly receive the word. And mark you, there never will be much good come to the ministry until it is simplified, until our brethren learn one language, which they do not seem to know. Latin, Greek, French, Hebrew, and twenty other languages they know. There is one I would recommend to their very serious study—it is called Anglo-Saxon. If they would just try and learn that, it is astonishing what a mighty language they would find it to move the hearts of men. Saxon before every language in the world. When every other has died out for want of power, Saxon will live, and triumph with its iron tongue, and its voice of steel. We must have the common, plain language in which to address the people. And mark this, we must have Christ lifted up, Christ crucified, without the gauds and fripperies of learning, without the trappings of attempted eloquence or oratory. If Christ Jesus be earnestly preached he will draw all men unto him.

 

[Winman]

Generally speaking, who was it that understood Jesus's teachings and were saved? Was it the highly educated religious leaders, or was it the average and more simple folks?

 

[quantumfaith]

Generally speaking, who was it that understood Jesus's teachings and were saved? Was it the highly educated religious leaders, or was it the average and more simple folks?

Excellent observation.

 

[Luke2427]

Excellent observation.

No it isn't and here's why.

This conversation is not about how folks are when God finds them. If it were about that, then it would be a good point.

This conversation is about what folks should now aspire to become now that he HAS found them.

They should seek to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (Peter)

They should desire the sincere milk of the word that they may grow thereby. (Peter)

As they grow they should be consuming harder and harder truth lest they warrant the reprimand Paul gave to the Corinthians- "I fed you with milk and not meat for ye were not able to bear it. And neither now are ye able..." (I Corinthians 3)

It is the opposite of commendable when CHRISTIANS only embrace simple truth and do not, "leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity..." (Hebrews 6:1)

Shallowness is a plague that is killing the American Church.

I do not think that one should want to be a peddler of it.

 

[SRBooe]

I guess that is a major point that we are confused about.

Why does the new Christian need to grow into the desire to attend a theological university? Why cannot the Christian grow into becomeing more Christ-like without having to progress into being able to come on to the BaptistBoard and argue with everyone? They certainly should not be required to be able to write posts that insult everyone else.

Most of the heated arguments here are not about how to be more like Christ. They are about Calvinism and Armenianism. They are about which version of the Bible you should select.

If it were only about drinking, smoking, dancing, movies, and short skirts; those answers do not require a university degree to understand. They require Bible lawyers only to find loopholes in Scripture or to find ways to interpret the Bible to make it say what we might want it to say.

A simple approach would be to read the Bible and see what it does say. If the Bible does not say, refer to our need to follow Jesus' commandment about love and pray for guidance from God.

Those of you who spend your years getting a PhD in Bible studies of one kind or another have your own calling. Is that the same calling that all of us are supposed to have?

The best teacher of God's word may never have seen the inside of a school of theology.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Well said SRbooe!!!!!!! Some of the best bible scholars I know never attended a school of theology....they received their knowledge from on high.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well said SRbooe!!!!!!! Some of the best bible scholars I know never attended a school of theology....they received their knowledge from on high.

I'll tell you this fact, the effective preachers of the past certainly expressed more Grace in their sermons, books, and lives than the heady intellectuals we have today do on forums and in churches.

Why are those who: want to express to us their deep deep knowledge, and who display their Christian vitae, talk much of self, what they know, how much they've read, who they know personally among the high rank; typically seen as lacking grace in speech and spirit? Don't these also tout their understandings of the DoG as a badge of honor? (isn't this ironic, great understandings of the doctrine, but not musch in the practice) Don't these become weary when one points out their error and show great offense and a lack of any humility, and are unteachable? Where's the practice and influence thereof upon the life of its proponents? To be honest and fair here, so are the ones who lay claim to this "Scripture only" mentality, and also their inability and weakness in understanding Scriptures is glaring. Both sides are simply magnifying self, one in intellect, the other in some super spiritual light, but again, both are merely illuminating one thing; self.

I don't recall too many in past, talking of their degrees, talents, knowledge, social connections, schooling, theological slant, IQ, but instead their main thing is/was the main One, our Lord Jesus Christ. But let's not do that lest we suffer persecution. "...all those who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."


We should probably concentrate on the grow in grace part more than the latter, grow in knowledge part since it is chronologically given to us in proper order by divine decree. And because knowledge makes arrogant.

I am not discounting knowledge, or study. Some will take it that way.

 

[Luke2427]

Well said SRbooe!!!!!!! Some of the best bible scholars I know never attended a school of theology....they received their knowledge from on high.

I kind of hate to keep doing this, but, no, it is not well said. This conversation doesn't have a thing to do with seminary. That is an old thread.

This conversation has to do with whether or not theology is supposed to be simple. Are there great and glorious truths which are immensely complex, yet God still reveals them to us and expects us to dig for them?

The answer is, yes.

This thread is no about seminary.

 

[Luke2427]

I'll tell you this fact, the effective preachers of the past certainly expressed more Grace in their sermons, books, and lives than the heady intellectuals we have today do on forums and in churches.

Why are those who: want to express to us their deep deep knowledge, and who display their Christian vitae, talk much of self, what they know, how much they've read, who they know personally among the high rank; typically seen as lacking grace in speech and spirit? Don't these also tout their understandings of the DoG as a badge of honor? (isn't this ironic, great understandings of the doctrine, but not musch in the practice) Don't these become weary when one points out their error and show great offense and a lack of any humility, and are unteachable? Where's the practice and influence thereof upon the life of its proponents? To be honest and fair here, so are the ones who lay claim to this "Scripture only" mentality, and also their inability and weakness in understanding Scriptures is glaring. Both sides are simply magnifying self, one in intellect, the other in some super spiritual light, but again, both are merely illuminating self.

I don't think this is true.

The most arrogant people I have known are also the most ignorant and they are too ignorant to know they are ignorant, thus, their ignorance drives them to arrogance.

I had the privilege here a few months back to meet Ligon Duncan at First Pres in Jackson, MS.

He came to my table there where I was eating and sat down and talked to me like I was the Prince of Saudi Arabia. He was extraordinarily humble and pleasant.

He is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary.

I have talked with R. C. Sproul on a couple of occasions- perhaps one of, if not the, best theological mind in the Country- extraordinarily humble and kind.

Yet I grew up in IFB type churches, ones with very ignorant preachers, and they come off as arrogant, know-it-all jerks.


So I disagree. I think ignorance breeds arrogance at least as much as knowledge.

But at least if a man KNOWS some things and is arrogant he can be of benefit.


But when a man is arrogant and dumb as a box of rocks- he is a REAL thorn to the Church.

 

[preacher4truth]

I kind of hate to keep doing this, but, no, it is not well said. This conversation doesn't have a thing to do with seminary. That is an old thread.

This conversation has to do with whether or not theology is supposed to be simple. Are there great and glorious truths which are immensely complex, yet God still reveals them to us and expects us to dig for them?

The answer is, yes.

This thread is no about seminary.

Yes we know.

And theology is not simple, yet we have simpletons that try to express that it is. If this forum were in realtime, and we were to ask these here in a live setting, who are proponents that all of Scripture is simplistic, to expound certain passages, they would fail miserably. This super spiritual Scriptures only ideology is just another form of arrogance and pride.

They know full well the Scriptures are not as simple as they say.

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't think this is true.The most arrogant people I have known are also the most ignorant and they are too ignorant to know they are ignorant, thus, their ignorance drives them to arrogance.

I addressed that and said the same thing in my post. So I guess that makes me just as right as you are, or can it just not be so that I am right, but need you to line me out? You really should read the entire thread instead of going off on a rant.

I had the privilege here a few months back to meet Ligon Duncan at First Pres in Jackson, MS. He came to my table there where I was eating and sat down and talked to me like I was the Prince of Saudi Arabia. He was extraordinarily humble and pleasant. He is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary.

What did you learn from this, personally?

I have talked with R. C. Sproul on a couple of occasions- perhaps one of, if not the, best theological mind in the Country- extraordinarily humble and kind.

Somehow you have concluded I meant all intellectuals are arrogant. Uh, go figure.

Yet I grew up in IFB type churches, ones with very ignorant preachers, and they come off as arrogant, know-it-all jerks. So I disagree. I think ignorance breeds arrogance at least as much as knowledge.

Again, that's what I said in my post. So again, I disagree with you since you didn't read nor understand the full sense of what I said.

But at least if a man KNOWS some things and is arrogant he can be of benefit.

They usually think this of themselves, instead of thinking they are unprofitable servants who are only doing what was commanded them to do

But when a man is arrogant and dumb as a box of rocks- he is a REAL thorn to the Church.

Not always. And arrogance is also a REAL thorn, by itself.

Uh, you don't think what is true? Everything I said, or your assumptions of what you think I said, or what you are trying to make it look like I said? Nothing I've said is untrue. So chill. I just said the same things in my post. Calm down and actually read I addressed both sides. I never stated that all today are such, but the majority are. Your examples don't disprove what I said. They're the exception, not the rule.

 

[Luke2427]

(I addressed that and said the same thing)



(what did you learn from this, personally?)
He is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary.



somehow you have concluded I meant all intellectuals are arrogant, uh, go figure



Again, that's what I said



(that's what he thinks)

Not always. And arrogance is also a thorn, by itself.

Uh, you don't think what is true? Everything I said, or your assumptions of what you think I said, or what you are trying to make it look like I said? Nothing I've said is untrue.

So chill. I just said the same thing. Calm down and actually read I addressed both sides. I never stated that all today are such, but the majority are. Your example doesn't disprove what I said. It's the exception, not the rule.

I think this is going to be very difficult for you to prove. (The exception thing)

Experience dictates that arrogance is at least just as prominent among the ignorant hordes as it is among the highly educated.

At least the highly educated- if WELL educated- have something that makes SENSE to be proud of, even if they shouldn't be.

For an imbecile to be arrogant is doubly bad.

 

[preacher4truth]

I think this is going to be very difficult for you to prove. (The exception thing)

Experience dictates that arrogance is at least just as prominent among the ignorant hordes as it is among the highly educated.

At least the highly educated- if WELL educated- have something that makes SENSE to be proud of, even if they shouldn't be.

For an imbecile to be arrogant is doubly bad.

The thing is I said the exact same things you said. Then you come off like you're proving me wrong. You didn't read my thread. I stated the same things.

You also can't prove your side. Both sides are an attempt to prove ones self experientially. You feel your experiential knowledge proves you to be correct. I simply allude to the past saints who for the most part were full of grace, not arrogance.

I don't think, I know this is going to be very difficult for you, but, one more time: I said everything you said, prior to you saying it.

Learn to read before your lips start accusing one of saying something untrue which in itself is blatantly arrogant, and said in plain ignorance of the facts. What do you do, read half the post, then go on a rant? Obviously you didn't see the latter parts of my post.

Sometimes others actually agree with you, and have already thought out and said the same things you've said, if you'd slow down and actually read them before your fingers get ahead of your brain.

 

[SRBooe]

So, nobody is going to answer the questions I asked.

There must be a reason that people want to think that the Bible is too complex for the common man.

 

[preacher4truth]

So, nobody is going to answer the questions I asked.

There must be a reason that people want to think that the Bible is too complex for the common man.

Has someone said the Bible is too complex for common man?

I think some things are easy, some things are not. But common man can understand the Gospel, which is paramount.

What are you getting at with stating "there must be a reason that people want to think that the Bible is too complex for common man"?

What were your questions?

 

[Luke2427]

So, nobody is going to answer the questions I asked.

There must be a reason that people want to think that the Bible is too complex for the common man.

Strawman. Nobody said the whole Bible is so complex that the common man cannot understand it.

Try again.

 

[SRBooe]

Post 86

This whole thread is about how complex theology is. Read the first post again.

English is not my second language. Some of you have a habit of belittling people's posts without ever trying to see the point. Does that come from such a strong desire to be right more than a desire to Communicate?

 

[menageriekeeper]

If this forum were in realtime, and we were to ask these here in a live setting, who are proponents that all of Scripture is simplistic, to expound certain passages, they would fail miserably.

You think so, huh? Perhaps what most of the bickering in this thread is forgetting is that not everyone needs to be a theologian to fulfill his or her place in God's plan in the place where God has planted them.

For instance, one using scripture to preach the dangers of drinking alcohol in a place where alcohol abuse is rampant uses scripture just as correctly as the one who preaches moderation in a place where alcohol abuse is rare. Neither one is "wrong", both are right for their place.

Luke and I disagree on "calvinism". Just because I think he is wrong, doesn't mean that God doesn't want him to believe just as he does for the purposes of his own place. Just because he thinks I am wrong, doesn't mean that God doesn't want me to believe as I do because the place I am in includes folk who were raised by a man who refused to believe at all because he was born illegitimate and nothing could convince him that the passage about a "bast*rd not entering the gates of heaven" was meant symbolically, not literally. (specifically he believed that this passage clearly damned all illegitimate children to hell as part of God's election)

Everything for a time and everything for a purpose.

 

[quantumfaith]

Post 86

This whole thread is about how complex theology is. Read the first post again.

English is not my second language. Some of you have a habit of belittling people's posts without ever trying to see the point. Does that come from such a strong desire to be right more than a desire to Communicate?

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