Is there A Baptism In the holy Spirit For today?

[plain_n_simple]

I already mentioned to you, I believe in healings.
I do believe that God answers prayers.
What I don't believe is the gifts of healing, or the gifts or miracles or tongues. There is a big difference.
That's fine.

How do you define an apostle?

They have signs, and I would say they are a very very humble. They have authority, credibility, not the kind you get from worldly methods.
Above all love.

 

[John of Japan]

I have been part of a church split (not because of tongues) but because of a pastor that became a dictator instead of a pastor. Satan is the cause of most church splits, you want to blame people! Ok, well who are the people listening too? SATAN!

I can not judge why the people left in your church? You seem to have a problem with it and still have not reconciled it within yourself. So now you want to take it all out on me because you lost some of God's sheep. I am not playing that game!

I have already said I do not think any church should split! They should all be in unity!

I have said clearly that Charismatics stole sheep from my church. The reason was tongues. But you say, "I cannot judge why the people left in your church?" (sic) So basically you are calling me a liar here.

I'm reconciled with the three events (happened years ago). And I'm not trying to take it out on you. I'm just trying to get you to stand up like an adult and admit your convictions. So I'll phrase it differently.

Scenario: Joe is a tongues speaker. He starts attending a non-tongues church. Without the pastor knowing, he begins trying to get Sam and Bill, members of the church, to speak in tongues. Right or wrong?

 

[DHK]

They have signs, and I would say they are a very very humble. They have authority, credibility, not the kind you get from worldly methods.
Above all love.

What kind of signs do they exercise today?
Where do you find these "apostles" today?
Can you name any; their churches; what they are known for?

If they have such authority and credibility as the apostles of the NT, surely they would be known among the Christian world today.

 

[plain_n_simple]

What kind of signs do they exercise today?
Where do you find these "apostles" today?
Can you name any; their churches; what they are known for?

If they have such authority and credibility as the apostles of the NT, surely they would be known among the Christian world today.

Look for them, but I doubt you are really interested. Authority is not a power thing like the worlds. Credibility is in what happens when they preach, gotta be there to see.

 

[DHK]

Look for them, but I doubt you are really interested. Authority is not a power thing like the worlds. Credibility is in what happens when they preach, gotta be there to see.

Christ left the evangelization of the world in the hands of just 12 men, his Apostles. They were well-known all throughout the world at that time, especially what one would call the "Christian world." The Great Commission was given to them and left in their hands. He had no back up plans. What would happen if these men failed? Christianity would die out. But they didn't fail and Christianity spread. Such was the confidence Christ had in his Apostles.

In our present world we still know who the apostles were. But there are not apostles now, are there? If there were, you would be able to name them, just like you can the 12. You would be able to document their miracles, but you haven't done so. Your answers are very vague: "Look and see." "I doubt you are interested." These are not the answers of one who really believes in what he is saying.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is quite simple and self explanatory. If it does not fit your doctrinal paradigm I suggest you adjust your doctrinal paradigm.

As A baptist I see in scripture where baptism is more than a christian in the water.

Biblically....baptism always speaks of passing through the water:


In Noahs flood......the world of the ungodly stayed in the water....Noah identifying with God's word, obeyed preparing an ark for his household to safely pass through the water of judgement. The believers were rightly related to the judgement in the ark.


In the Exodus....the believers identified with Moses and God's word...passed through the waters...the egyptians were actually destroyed in the water of judgement..... Baptism was an identification with Moses.

In our baptism...we are identified with Jesus as the place of safety, the propitiation,....water baptism is a picture and identification of what has taken place by the Spirit.

It is more our Identification with Jesus...than being in the water...maybe your paradigm needs a little tweaking

 

[plain_n_simple]

Christ left the evangelization of the world in the hands of just 12 men, his Apostles. They were well-known all throughout the world at that time, especially what one would call the "Christian world." The Great Commission was given to them and left in their hands. He had no back up plans. What would happen if these men failed? Christianity would die out. But they didn't fail and Christianity spread. Such was the confidence Christ had in his Apostles.

In our present world we still know who the apostles were. But there are not apostles now, are there? If there were, you would be able to name them, just like you can the 12. You would be able to document their miracles, but you haven't done so. Your answers are very vague: "Look and see." "I doubt you are interested." These are not the answers of one who really believes in what he is saying.

I've seen it happen. Anyway I'll give you a few names in PM, but like I said, you do not want to know, other than arguing.

 

[Iconoclast]

So 1 Corinthians 12 is not for everyday christians?

All of the bible is to every day christians.We are to correctly understand what is....and what is not happening and follow it.

Acts is a special transition period.It is not the model for everyday christian life.

Go through Acts everytime a miracle takes place, the word if established. We have the word now complete.The Spirit quickens the word to us.That is why God gave it special to us.

 

[awaken]

The apostles are the authors of the NT, and the prophets, the authors of the OT. Only in that sense do we still have them. The 12 died off by the end of the first century as did all of the sign gifts.

..and no where in scriptures do you see this!

For one thing...
This argument is erroneous because few of the apostles wrote any of the books of the New Testament, and many of the books were written by people who were not apostles

 

[awaken]

All of the bible is to every day christians.We are to correctly understand what is....and what is not happening and follow it.

Acts is a special transition period.It is not the model for everyday christian life.

Go through Acts everytime a miracle takes place, the word if established. We have the word now complete.The Spirit quickens the word to us.That is why God gave it special to us.

Where does it say Acts is just a transition period? Again, no where in scriptures does it say this!

 

[Don]

Quote:
Originally Posted by plain_n_simple
There are numerous documented accounts of healing, miracles, and people being raised from the dead over the past year alone all over the world. It is love that drives these people.

I would much appreciate seeing some of these documented, verified accounts of people being raised from the dead.

 

[DHK]

..and no where in scriptures do you see this!

For one thing...
This argument is erroneous because few of the apostles wrote any of the books of the New Testament, and many of the books were written by people who were not apostles

All of the NT were written by the Apostles or their close associates.
Matthew was an apostle.
Mark got his information from Peter.
Luke traveled with Paul.
John was an Apostle.
Acts was written by Luke.
Romans and all the other Pauline epistles were written by Paul.
Hebrews' author is unknown but many think it was Paul.
James was that half brother of Jesus and the pastor of the church of Jerusalem, a very close associate of all the apostles as seen in Acts 15.
Jude was also the half brother of Jesus, the brother of James.
Peter, an Apostle, wrote two epistles.
John wrote three epistles and the Book of revelation--the beloved Apostle.

Just whose authority do you want to question?

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

The OT: "words spoken before by the holy prophets."
The NT: "of the commandments of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior."

Be mindful of these words!

 

[awaken]

All of the NT were written by the Apostles or their close associates.
Matthew was an apostle.
Mark got his information from Peter.
Luke traveled with Paul.
John was an Apostle.
Acts was written by Luke.
Romans and all the other Pauline epistles were written by Paul.
Hebrews' author is unknown but many think it was Paul.
James was that half brother of Jesus and the pastor of the church of Jerusalem, a very close associate of all the apostles as seen in Acts 15.
Jude was also the half brother of Jesus, the brother of James.
Peter, an Apostle, wrote two epistles.
John wrote three epistles and the Book of revelation--the beloved Apostle.

Just whose authority do you want to question?

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

The OT: "words spoken before by the holy prophets."
The NT: "of the commandments of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior."

Be mindful of these words!

So not all the apostles wrote the NT, Does it say anywhere in scriptures where the others (not apostles) manifested miracles?

 

[DHK]

So not all the apostles wrote the NT, Does it say anywhere in scriptures where the others (not apostles) manifested miracles?

Spiritual gifts were given to the church for specific reasons.
Some were sign gifts (tongues were a sign to the Jews).
Some were revelatory gifts--gifts to give revelation until the canon of Scripture was complete.
The sign gifts were also given as a sign that the apostles were apostles indeed and that their message was from God.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Here we see witnesses of the Apostles and those that could verify the miracles that they did. The gifts of the Holy Spirit were signs of the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles.

 

[awaken]

I have said clearly that Charismatics stole sheep from my church. The reason was tongues. But you say, "I cannot judge why the people left in your church?" (sic) So basically you are calling me a liar here.

I'm reconciled with the three events (happened years ago). And I'm not trying to take it out on you. I'm just trying to get you to stand up like an adult and admit your convictions. So I'll phrase it differently.

Scenario: Joe is a tongues speaker. He starts attending a non-tongues church. Without the pastor knowing, he begins trying to get Sam and Bill, members of the church, to speak in tongues. Right or wrong?

Let me ask you a question about your scenario..Did God allow this?

 

[DHK]

Let me ask you a question about your scenario..Did God allow this?

Did God allow 9/11?
Did God allow Jeffrey Dahmer to eat human flesh?
What do you think?
Does God allow sin?

 

[awaken]

Spiritual gifts were given to the church for specific reasons.
Some were sign gifts (tongues were a sign to the Jews).
Some were revelatory gifts--gifts to give revelation until the canon of Scripture was complete.
The sign gifts were also given as a sign that the apostles were apostles indeed and that their message was from God.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Here we see witnesses of the Apostles and those that could verify the miracles that they did. The gifts of the Holy Spirit were signs of the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles.

You add truth with your little add ons or twist without scriptures to back it up. To believe as you do I have to ignore the scriptures that I have posted. And I can not do that!

Jesus is the baptizer! " ...Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost"

"...but wait for the promise of the Father, which saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly batized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence"

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth"
( We are still going to the uttermost parts of the earth!)

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now SEE and HEAR."

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (THe Lord has called me, has he called you?)

THe Holy Spirit is here today! Jesus is still baptizing today! I do not just have a form of Godliness...I do not deny the power of the Holy Spirit! Do you?

One more thing! The gifts were given to edify the Body of Christ! Why would he stop this!

 

[awaken]

Did God allow 9/11?
Did God allow Jeffrey Dahmer to eat human flesh?
What do you think?
Does God allow sin?

Your point?

 

[DHK]

You add truth with your little add ons or twist without scriptures to back it up. To believe as you do I have to ignore the scriptures that I have posted. And I can not do that!

You don't have to ignore Scripture. You have to understand it. You are taking Scripture and building it around unbiblical doctrines. Tongues is one, and believing in a "subsequent blessing" is another.

Jesus is the baptizer! " ...Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost"

And so He did. He did that the moment I was saved. He has been indwelling me ever since that time by the power of the Holy Spirit.

"...but wait for the promise of the Father, which saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly batized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence"

This was a specific promise given to the disciples. They were to wait at Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit would come. He would come on the Day of Pentecost. From that day onward those who believed in Christ would be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth"
( We are still going to the uttermost parts of the earth!)

The same context as above. This is before Pentecost. They were to wait until the Spirit came on the Day of the Pentecost. It in no way nullifies the Great Commission as you say. But the events of Pentecost were historical. They happened once. Ever since then all who believe in Christ are indwelt the time they believe, or are baptized into his family at that time.

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now SEE and HEAR."

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (THe Lord has called me, has he called you?)

THe Holy Spirit is here today! Jesus is still baptizing today! I do not just have a form of Godliness...I do not deny the power of the Holy Spirit! Do you?

You are taking all this Scripture from Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost. Peter was speaking to Jews, the very Jews that crucified Christ.
--The promise is to you and your children. That is a prophetic statement to the Jews and their generations.

Jesus baptizes at the time of salvation. At that time we are put into Christ. And Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit comes into us. There is no subsequent blessing that you are looking for. You are taking historical events and building doctrines around them.

It is like saying that because the Lord spoke to Moses through a burning bush, you can claim the same promise and demand that God speak to you through a burning bush as well. That was a historical event. God does not speak through burning bushes, nor does he speak through tongues today.

 

[awaken]

You don't have to ignore Scripture. You have to understand it. You are taking Scripture and building it around unbiblical doctrines. Tongues is one, and believing in a "subsequent blessing" is another.

And so He did. He did that the moment I was saved. He has been indwelling me ever since that time by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This was a specific promise given to the disciples. They were to wait at Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit would come. He would come on the Day of Pentecost. From that day onward those who believed in Christ would be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

The same context as above. This is before Pentecost. They were to wait until the Spirit came on the Day of the Pentecost. It in no way nullifies the Great Commission as you say. But the events of Pentecost were historical. They happened once. Ever since then all who believe in Christ are indwelt the time they believe, or are baptized into his family at that time.

You are taking all this Scripture from Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost. Peter was speaking to Jews, the very Jews that crucified Christ.
--The promise is to you and your children. That is a prophetic statement to the Jews and their generations.

Jesus baptizes at the time of salvation. At that time we are put into Christ. And Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit comes into us. There is no subsequent blessing that you are looking for. You are taking historical events and building doctrines around them.

It is like saying that because the Lord spoke to Moses through a burning bush, you can claim the same promise and demand that God speak to you through a burning bush as well. That was a historical event. God does not speak through burning bushes, nor does he speak through tongues today.

THe promise is the Holy Spirit! It was not just for a few and it was not just for the Jew! He is still here and he works the same way!

IT is till we all come in the unity of the faith! Do you see unity of the faith?