Is there ever a time to lie?

[Brother Bob]

I know what your saying. We try not to sin. But we aren't sin-free. I hope your not saying you are sin-free. The point I was trying to make is all are in the same boat as the liar. Sounds like you are saying you have sinless perfection on this side of eternity. If you don't, you are in no better shape than the liar.

No brother, I pray every day of my life, but you will never find me with my neighbor's wife, etc.

BBob,

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Question concerning Rahab...

Was it her lie that saved her? or was it the scarlet thread of redemption that she later used after the two spies had escaped the city?

I say it was the latter. She lied prior to her having faith in the promise of the spies.

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree, Bob.

It is never ok to bear false witness against thy neighbor, nor is it ever ok to conspire to bait, deceive, or otherwise take advantage of the innocent, nor to save your own skin. (Remember, if we deny Christ before men, He shall deny us before His Father.)

But you can't ignore the exceptions in Scripture. (They're not really exceptions, they're just exceptions from a fleshly point of view.) I don't see that you have answered the questions concerning Rahab or the midwives in Egypt. (The passage from 1 Kings is not an example of an exception. God sent a lying spirit as judgment upon their lack of faithfulness, just as he continues to send strong delusion to those who refuse to believe the truth as judgment upon their infidelity, 2 Thess. 2:11) Did God not deal well with the midwives and give them their own houses for the act of saving innocent lives? Is Rahab not mentioned twice in the NT for her act of faith?

Needless to say, the "exceptions" are much more narrow than I think most in this thread are willing to admit, but they are there.

God allowed things to happen, such as Judas betraying His Son. Did that mean that God was partaker of the betrayal, I think not.

Also, I find it very hard to accept something when the church was in the flesh, to when it has been taken out of the flesh and put in the heart. If the Law was good enough to keep them, there would of been no need for Jesus to come and set up the Grace Covenant. I also find it hard to try and justify such things as adultery, by comparing us to King David. I just don't make those comparsions. I hope this answers the question.

Do you have an example under the Grace Covenant after the Holy Ghost came upon the believers??

BBob,

 

[JerryL]

Bro JerryL,

I don't believe that Jesus will forgive every sin. The one sin He won't forgive is blaspheming(sp?) the Holy Ghost. I think this is the sin unto death. I don't believe the "sin unto death" refers to the natural death that we already have to face...because we all are going to die someday. Could this be what caused Annanias and Sapphira to die when they lied to the Holy Ghost? Any thoughts on this?

Willis

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a hard one. I'm not so sure there is such a thing today. Probably in that day when there were undeniable miracles going on, but I don't know about today. Mind you I'm not saying it CAN'T happen. Any denying of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy right? We all deny the Holy Spirit before we are saved simply by our unbelief. Can an atheist be saved? I know atheists that have been saved, after they denied the Holy Spirit most of their life.

 

[JerryL]

God allowed things to happen, such as Judas betraying His Son. Did that mean that God was partaker of the betrayal, I think not.

Also, I find it very hard to accept something when the church was in the flesh, to when it has been taken out of the flesh and put in the heart. If the Law was good enough to keep them, there would of been no need for Jesus to come and set up the Grace Covenant. I also find it hard to try and justify such things as adultery, by comparing us to King David. I just don't make those comparsions. I hope this answers the question.

Do you have an example under the Grace Covenant after the Holy Ghost came upon the believers??

BBob,

I think maybe He did take part in it in His eternal plan Bob, by this Scripture for one.

Act 4:27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

 

[convicted1]

Okay, let me try this from a different angle here. We all know that Jesus came and died on the cross for us and our sins. He told those who opposed Him the TRUTH, and what did it get him? The very thing He came to do...dying on a cross. Sometimes the truth hurts, but it(truth) will stand when everything else is on fire. If Jesus would have lied(impossible for Him to do), and told them that they(Pharisees, Elders, scribes, Chief Priests,etc.) could go on living under the OT ways, He probably would have lived. But He did what He had to do, telling them the truth. It led to Him being nailed to a TREE. I will do what my Lord and Saviour did.


Willis

 

[Brother Bob]

I think maybe He did take part in it in His eternal plan Bob, by this Scripture for one.

Act 4:27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Again, God for sure has a plan for salvation which includes His Son being as a slain Lamb. To say that God had a hand in the actual betrayal and killing of His son, is beyond me. I believe Adam had a choice whether to sin or not, but God knew that he would. I do not believe God made Adam sin.

To say God had a hand in the actual betrayal, is to say that God caused Adam to sin. IMO

What He destined to occur, was for Jesus to die for the sins of the world, but Jesus said you take not my life, but I lay it down.


It seems that our faith will be tried by the sins that are the hardest for us to fight off, such as lying. Also for men, adultery or the love of money, but our faith will be tried and this will tell us what we are made of.
I don’t claim to be much at all in this life, but I sure do try to serve my Lord.

Hbr 11:17 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ

 

[Joe]

I think many of you are lying to yourself, or or very deluded, if you beleive you don't find certain lies acceptable in certain situations, and admit to partaking of them.

You couldn't function in society, period.

I think Hollywood created a few comedies concerning this kind of scinereo.

Somehow, whether you label it under the guise of "class" or something else, when what you tell someone is not the truth, it is called a lie.

 

[Joe]

I was just talking to someone the other day about this very thread subject. Isn't it amazing how God works? We were talking about how evil this world has gotten and would either of us lie to save one, or more, of our family members. He even stated that if some people told him if he told them he believed in God, they would kill each of his family members one at a time, and he said he would. Mind you, this scenario involved him being tied up, and his family members tied up as well, and he would be forced to see them killed. I love my family with all my heart, and if I was ever put in this situation, it would be very hard for me to lie. Jesus said if you deny me before this sinful and adulterous generation, He would be ashamed to confess me before His Father and His holy angels. I know all of this is a "hypothetical" situation, but my mom and dad would not want me to deny God to save them, nor would I want them to do it for me, either. But, none of us knows how we would really react if we were put on this situation. I see that according to the NT scriptures, lying is wrong. I am not saying you can't be forgiven of it, but it is wrong. If I heard one of my brothers/sisters in CHRIST telling a lie, I would lose all confidence in them.

The OT refrences people are using are under a whole different covenant(Mosacical(SP?). Annanias and Sapphira died immediately after they lied to the Holy Ghost. I just don't see where it's okay for a CHRISTian to lie under any circumstance. But of course, it's my humble opinion.

Willis

God also said let a milestone be placed upon the necks of those who offend his little ones. He calls them "Blessings" and gave us instructions upon how to take care of our children. To disregard this verse to place all emphasis on the many other verses, then as a result allow your child to be tortured, we'll that is sickening. The Lord also instructed us to follow the laws of the land. You can be held legally responsible if you do not take all action to protect your child.

Anytime a religion teaches you (in any scinereo) it is ok to physically harm your child, contribute to it in any way, or sit back and allow it to happen, it is not of God. That's of Satan.

 

[JerryL]

Again, God for sure has a plan for salvation which includes His Son being as a slain Lamb. To say that God had a hand in the actual betrayal and killing of His son, is beyond me. I believe Adam had a choice whether to sin or not, but God knew that he would. I do not believe God made Adam sin.

To say God had a hand in the actual betrayal, is to say that God caused Adam to sin. IMO

What He destined to occur, was for Jesus to die for the sins of the world, but Jesus said you take not my life, but I lay it down.


It seems that our faith will be tried by the sins that are the hardest for us to fight off, such as lying. Also for men, adultery or the love of money, but our faith will be tried and this will tell us what we are made of.
I don’t claim to be much at all in this life, but I sure do try to serve my Lord.

Hbr 11:17 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ

I too, try my best to live as Jesus would have me to live, I'm just glad He's there when I slip. As for the first part about God taking part in His sons death, I think the Scripture says it pretty plain. He appointed it to happen.
Act 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
It doesn't get much plainer. They were gathered in the city to do what God had predestined to happen. Off topic, on the subject of God having a part in Jesus death, listen to John Pipers' "The suicide of satan."

http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...cide_of_Satan_and_the_Salvation_of_the_World/

The Hand and Plan of God

In Acts 4:27-28, we have the clearest, most explicit statement about God’s hand and plan behind the horrific crucifixion of his Son. “Truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand (cheir) and your plan (boule) had predestined to take place.” Those are the two words I am using: the hand of God and the plan of God.

It is a strange way of speaking—to say that God’s hand and plan have predestined something to happen. One does not ordinarily think of God’s “hand” predestining. How does a hand predestine? Here’s what I think it means: The hand of God ordinarily stands for God’s exerted power—not power in the abstract, but earthly, effective exertions of power. The point of combining it with “plan” is to say that it is not just a theoretical plan; it is plan that will be executed by God’s own hand.

This explains Isaiah 53:10: “It was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief.” Or more literally, with the King James Version, “It pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief.” The Lord bruised him. Behind Herod and Pilate and the Gentiles and the people of Israel was Jesus’ own Father who loved him with an infinite love.

The Gospel: God At Work in Death
Why should this matter to you? It should matter because if God were not the main Actor in the death of Christ, then the death of Christ could not save us from our sins and we would perish in hell forever. The reason the death of Christ is the heart of gospel—the heart of the good news—is God was doing it. Romans 5:8: “God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” If you break God’s activity from the death of Jesus, you lose the gospel. This was God’s doing. It is the highest and deepest point of his love for sinners. His love for you.

Romans 8:3: “Sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh.” God condemned sin in Jesus’ flesh with our condemnation. So we are free.

Galatians 3:13: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.” God cursed Jesus with the curse that belonged on us. So we are free.

2 Corinthians 5:21: “For our sake [God] made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” God imputed our sin to him, and now we go free in God’s righteousness.

Isaiah 53:5: “He was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities.” God wounded him. God crushed him. For you and me. And we go free.

 

[Aaron]

God allowed things to happen, such as Judas betraying His Son. Did that mean that God was partaker of the betrayal, I think not.

Also, I find it very hard to accept something when the church was in the flesh, to when it has been taken out of the flesh and put in the heart. If the Law was good enough to keep them, there would of been no need for Jesus to come and set up the Grace Covenant. I also find it hard to try and justify such things as adultery, by comparing us to King David. I just don't make those comparsions. I hope this answers the question.

Do you have an example under the Grace Covenant after the Holy Ghost came upon the believers??

BBob,

I was beginning a point-by-point response, and then realized why you view things the way you do. You believe the morality demanded by the NT is a greater or higher morality than that demanded by the OT law. I do not, and it's not because I have a small view of the NT, it's because you have a narrow view of the law. I think you believe the OT church actually kept the law. I don't.

I also think that you don't believe you have a sinful heart. I don't say this with mallice. I think if I asked you if you think you sinned today, you would tell me no. You wouldn't be alone. That's a common misconception of those who don't comprehend the exceedingly broad scope of the law. And I think you're in a precarious position of relying upon your own righteousness for God's approbation, and not completely and solely upon Christ.

Our disagreement isn't over this one point of misleading God's enemies, it's in our entire view of God, His law, man and the Atonement.

But to your question of NT examples: There is a whole list of OT characters held to our eyes in the NT as examples of faith. And all that happened in the OT happened as examples to us and for our learning—not the least of which is our instruction in righteousness.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

When Jesus said

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

He was not saying it was ok to lie to keep a child from harm. If one denies the Lord to save a childs life, he is doing more harm to that child than he thinks.

 

[Brother Bob]

1Cr 9:27But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

[Aaron]

Question concerning Rahab...

Was it her lie that saved her? or was it the scarlet thread of redemption that she later used after the two spies had escaped the city?

I say it was the latter. She lied prior to her having faith in the promise of the spies.

She didn't lie. That's the point. What you are calling a lie is not what the Scriptures call a lie.

 

[Joe]

When Jesus said

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

He was not saying it was ok to lie to keep a child from harm.

I never said that. I said we are obligated to do everything we can to save a child's life or keep him from physical harm. They are children for God's sakes!

If one denies the Lord to save a childs life, he is doing more harm to that child than he thinks.

That is demented, and I won't comment upon that.

 

[JerryL]

When Jesus said

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

He was not saying it was ok to lie to keep a child from harm. If one denies the Lord to save a childs life, he is doing more harm to that child than he thinks.

I think this is where we are all getting confused on the OP. It was never implied about denying Jesus inthe midst of the lie.

 

[Brother Bob]

I was beginning a point-by-point response, and then realized why you view things the way you do. You believe the morality demanded by the NT is a greater or higher morality than that demanded by the OT law. I do not, and it's not because I have a small view of the NT, it's because you have a narrow view of the law. I think you believe the OT church actually kept the law. I don't.

I also think that you don't believe you have a sinful heart. I don't say this with mallice. I think if I asked you if you think you sinned today, you would tell me no. You wouldn't be alone. That's a common misconception of those who don't comprehend the exceedingly broad scope of the law. And I think you're in a precarious position of relying upon your own righteousness for God's approbation, and not completely and solely upon Christ.

Our disagreement isn't over this one point of misleading God's enemies, it's in our entire view of God, His law, man and the Atonement.

But to your question of NT examples: There is a whole list of OT characters held to our eyes in the NT as examples of faith. And all that happened in the OT happened as examples to us and for our learning—not the least of which is our instruction in righteousness.

First of all, is it lawful for you to have concubines.
Second there were those who were found perfect under the Law.

Luk 1:5 ¶ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth.

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

There were many more, there was a remnant even as there is a remnant today.

Rom 11:4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.


Last of all Aaron; You are completely wrong about me thinking I do not sin. I just do not commit such sins that are unto death such as adultery, lying, killing etc.
I sin daily, but pray daily also for forgiveness. I have never prayed for forgiveness of adultery since being saved and received the Holy Ghost.



You are right that I believe that under the Grace Covenant you have a keeper of which they did not have under the Law Covenant.

The did not have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

We don't stone sinners to death today. We don't have concubines. We don't worship Idol Gods and byslide. We are kept by the power of God, of which they were not.

Back to the OP.
If we can lie, then we are lost for scripture says there will be no liars in Heaven. Or! God told us false.


Aaron; Are you saying that under the NT, the death of Christ made it so we could still live as King David did and commit adultery, its just that if we have Christ, it don't count against us???

BBob,

 

[JerryL]

Quoting Brother Bob,
You are completely wrong about me thinking I do not sin. I just do not commit such sins that are unto death such as adultery, lying, killing etc.Unquote

Where are you getting that these are sins unto death?

 

[Joe]

Midwives refused to kill the Hebrew babies as Pharaoh commanded. When confronted by Pharaoh they lied, saying that the babies were born before they could get there.

God praised and rewarded these people for lying to protect the babies

Exodus 1:20, 21 “Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.”

 

[JerryL]

I was beginning a point-by-point response, and then realized why you view things the way you do. You believe the morality demanded by the NT is a greater or higher morality than that demanded by the OT law. I do not, and it's not because I have a small view of the NT, it's because you have a narrow view of the law. I think you believe the OT church actually kept the law. I don't.

I also think that you don't believe you have a sinful heart. I don't say this with mallice. I think if I asked you if you think you sinned today, you would tell me no. You wouldn't be alone. That's a common misconception of those who don't comprehend the exceedingly broad scope of the law. And I think you're in a precarious position of relying upon your own righteousness for God's approbation, and not completely and solely upon Christ.

Our disagreement isn't over this one point of misleading God's enemies, it's in our entire view of God, His law, man and the Atonement.

But to your question of NT examples: There is a whole list of OT characters held to our eyes in the NT as examples of faith. And all that happened in the OT happened as examples to us and for our learning—not the least of which is our instruction in righteousness.

If I didn't completely and totally rely on Christ for my approbiation, my life would be in a shambles trying to work my own righteousness. Amen Brother. Well said. I try my very best to live righteous, but fail every minute of the day. I am dead without Him paying my way totally.