Is There Such A Thing As A Just War?

[JustChristian]

I don't carry a gun on me, so your characterization is all wrong. Nor do I sit around thinking about how exciting it would be to kill someone. But I also have no qualms about protecting innocent lives, unlike you.

By "moral cowardice" I mean the attempt to justify pacifism through a warped view of Jesus by turning him into a limp-wristed effete, in order to avoid doing the right thing by protecting innocent human life.

And I noticed that you failed to address my point that we are not to love everyone "the same."

I question your "gospel" of a Christ that does not support love and peace but rather war and violence.

 

[Marcia]

Not sure what you mean by "mixed", but as the verse above shows it would be to our advantage to "bless" Israel, and I firmly believe that as one of her (Israel's) staunchest allies since her re-birth, God has abundantly blessed this nation.

IIRC, Truman was the 1st leader to recognize Israel as an independent entity after her proclaiming independence in '48. I have no doubt that if we abandon Israel now, we might as well pull the shades and turn out the lights, cause we ain't gonna have squat anymore.

Do we have to agree with everything she does - NO. But just like a wayward child, you don't stop loving, encouraging, supporting, or helping them in the hopes of turning them around.

IOW, we don't abandon them; just like we had better not abandon Israel.

I know all about the history of Israel and the Biblical statements on Israel. That does not mean we have to support the civil government of Israel.

God will save many people in Israel in the last days; I believe that. However, that also does not mean we are to protect or endorse the civil government.

I think the warnings in the OT about Israel were to the Gentile nations that fought against that Israel - the OT Israel. I think we are supposed to evangelize the Jewish people and being pre-trib rapture, I believe the promises to Israel in the Bible. But this does not mean we have to agree with their government.

 

[HankD]

I didn't want to wade through the the 17 pages of posts so please bear with me if someone else has quoted this Scripture below:

Is there such a thing as a just war?

God must think so:

1 Samuel 15:1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

HankD​

 

[Andy T.]

I question your "gospel" of a Christ that does not support love and peace but rather war and violence.

Explain how a call to protect innocent human life is supporting war and violence?

 

[JustChristian]

Explain how a call to protect innocent human life is supporting war and violence?

Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor but more than that to love our enemy. You call this moral cowardice and you reject the way of our Savior. I don't see how you can justify that Biblically. Yours isn't moral cowardice but immorality.

 

[Marcia]

I didn't want to wade through the the 17 pages of posts so please bear with me if someone else has quoted this Scripture below:

Is there such a thing as a just war?

God must think so:

1 Samuel 15:1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.​

HankD​

I have acknowledged there are just wars in the OT. The OP should really say, "Is there such a thing as a Just War today?"

 

[Andy T.]

Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor but more than that to love our enemy. You call this moral cowardice and you reject the way of our Savior. I don't see how you can justify that Biblically. Yours isn't moral cowardice but immorality.

You've yet to refute the fact that, Biblically, we are not called to love everyone the same. And you've yet to provide a cogent argument on why we should not protect innocent human life.

 

[Marcia]

And you've yet to provide a cogent argument on why we should not protect innocent human life.

Andy, I know you are addressing JustChristian, but I am interested in how do you determine innocent life in the case of a country for the purposes of war? Which countries have innocent life? Some countries are the attackers but then they also become the victims of attacks.

 

[JustChristian]

You've yet to refute the fact that, Biblically, we are not called to love everyone the same. And you've yet to provide a cogent argument on why we should not protect innocent human life.

Post # 145. Now show me where Jesus supports killing our enemies.

 

[Don]

I have acknowledged there are just wars in the OT. The OP should really say, "Is there such a thing as a Just War today?"

To which I would reply, isn't God the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow?

 

[Andy T.]

Andy, I know you are addressing JustChristian, but I am interested in how do you determine innocent life in the case of a country for the purposes of war? Which countries have innocent life? Some countries are the attackers but then they also become the victims of attacks.

That's where it gets quite sticky. All I am trying to show is the basic principle that we should be willing to protect innocent life from those who seek their harm, and that we shouldn't hide behind a faulty view of Jesus to let evil men hurt people. How the principle of defending the innocent from evil men works itself out is where it get complicated.

 

[Andy T.]

Post # 145. Now show me where Jesus supports killing our enemies.

Show me where Jesus said to allow evil men to kill innocent human life, when we have the means or authority to stop it?

Since you say we should never kill anyone, then you have to be against the police taking any violent force, since it could result in death. The only policing they can do is traffic tickets, etc. So are you consistent in this, and think that police should give up all their weapons and be relegated to traffic duty?

 

[blackbird]

I think back to the beginning of WW2

It was the Brits who wanted to "appease" Hitler and his NAZI fools----they stammered and stuttered when he took the Sudentenland----that "No Man's Land" between Germany and the Checs---I believe it was Sir Winston Churchill who said---"They wanted peace---but they got war!!!!"

Then they swore to protect Poland-----then found themselves backed up to Dunkirk----it was hard to protect the Poles from across the Channel

I suppose there are some today who wonder if that war was "just"

 

[JustChristian]

Show me where Jesus said to allow evil men to kill innocent human life, when we have the means or authority to stop it?

Since you say we should never kill anyone, then you have to be against the police taking any violent force, since it could result in death. The only policing they can do is traffic tickets, etc. So are you consistent in this, and think that police should give up all their weapons and be relegated to traffic duty?

You haven't quoted scripture to support your position. I did. Your turn.

 

[JustChristian]

I think back to the beginning of WW2

It was the Brits who wanted to "appease" Hitler and his NAZI fools----they stammered and stuttered when he took the Sudentenland----that "No Man's Land" between Germany and the Checs---I believe it was Sir Winston Churchill who said---"They wanted peace---but they got war!!!!"

Then they swore to protect Poland-----then found themselves backed up to Dunkirk----it was hard to protect the Poles from across the Channel

I suppose there are some today who wonder if that war was "just"

I'm not saying that I expect countries to follow Christ's teachings. Christianity is an individual thing. Countries must act in their own self-interest. Yes, Britain made a mistake by trying to appease Hitler. It looks like the U.S. made a mistake by allying with bin Laden against the Soviets in their war against Afghanistan. We might have helped win that war but severely hurt ourselves in the aftermath when bin Laden turned against us.

In the American war for Independence the majority of Americans were initially against the war but the leaders persevered. What might have appeared to be an unjust war to most initially led to our freedom.

I suppose the bottom line is that individuals will face Christ on the Judgment Day, nations will not. Nations act in their best interests. Individual Christians must act according to their faith. As Baptists we believe that this decision is ultimately up to the individual not to the Pope or to the President of the SBS or the Convention. If you think most or all wars the U.S. has engaged in were moral that's your right both as an American and a Christian. If I believe that many were not moral I deserve the same respect.

 

[OldRegular]

The teaching of Jesus Christ:

Luke 20:21-
21. And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:
22. Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
23. But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
24. Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s.
25. And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s.
26. And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

Romans 13:1-7
Romans 13:1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Romans 13:3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Romans 13:4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Romans 13:5. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Romans 13:6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Romans 13:7. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.


1Peter 2:13. Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

It would appear from above that whether the Christian considers a war just or unjust he is obligated to defend his country if required. That is, no draft dodgers!

 

[JustChristian]

The teaching of Jesus Christ:

Luke 20:21-
21. And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:
22. Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
23. But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
24. Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s.
25. And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s.
26. And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

Romans 13:1-7
Romans 13:1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Romans 13:3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Romans 13:4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Romans 13:5. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Romans 13:6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Romans 13:7. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.


1Peter 2:13. Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

It would appear from above that whether the Christian considers a war just or unjust he is obligated to defend his country if required. That is, no draft dodgers!

So you would argue that Christians in Nazi Germany were compelled by their faith to shove the Jews into the ovens? I think not.

 

[Don]

So you would argue that Christians in Nazi Germany were compelled by their faith to shove the Jews into the ovens? I think not.

While I agree with you that shoving anyone into an oven or gas chamber in the fashion that the Nazis did to the Jews is immoral and should be an order that should be defied, I guess the question there would be: What do you think about U.S. military men and women who are participating in Iraq and Iran today who believe they are following (compelled by) their faith?

 

[HankD]

Genesis 9 and Romans 13 taken together show that governments are allowed to take vengeance upon evil doers.

God is the ultimate judge of those in authority who initiate war.

I am convinced that our government acted righteously by shedding the blood of Sadam Hussein and his sons. They had shed much innocent blood.

Unfortunately they had at least six months of "negotiatons" (Actually thumbing their noses at us) in which to remove the instruments of mass destruction from the land before we could go in and inspect.

Yes, the innocent often times die in war and indeed war is hell.

One day Jesus will come in His glory and put all such shedders of innocent blood where they belong - the Lake of Fire.
He will judge which wars were just and which were not.

In the mean time we have the right to defend ourselves from all enemies both foreign and domestic.
A right given by God in Genesis 9 and Romans 13 neither of which have been rescinded at the level of government.


HankD

 

[HankD]

While I agree with you that shoving anyone into an oven or gas chamber in the fashion that the Nazis did to the Jews is immoral and should be an order that should be defied, I guess the question there would be: What do you think about U.S. military men and women who are participating in Iraq and Iran today who believe they are following (compelled by) their faith?

Incidently, on February 17, 2009, President Obama deployed 17,000 additional troops to Afghanistan.

But I suppose anyone who voted for him considers that to be "just".

I don't think he sent 17,000 armed troops there to teach Sunday School.

HankD