I've Made a Decision

[HankD]

This is going to be self centered.
I have a question at the end?

I am not a calvinist.
I am not an arminianist.

I am a mugwump. Mug on one side of the fence wump on the other - someone else gave me that name - don't remember who.

I tried being a calvinist every other day then an arminian on the off days.
Didn't work well for me.

Personally I cant agree with all of the traditional details of either systematic theology although I was educated in a Bible school of mixed theological points of view.

Although coming (or driven to Christ) for me was a battle . I have said many times before, I am now an "easy-believer", because believing on Jesus is the easiest thing I know how to do to, in fact its second nature (maybe first nature?) to me.

Here is a verse:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Here is my question just for committed calvinist : In the calvinistic way of looking at things could not the Triune God have said in His own council : Let us choose the elect right now unconditionally and at our chosen time give each one of them the ability to come to Christ by decision, by being driven or whatever method of calling/coming suits our purpose.

If not why not?

After all we weren't there at this counsel (apart from being in the mind of God).

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Please see my responses in yours.

Due to the fact your response was improperly formatted I did not see it.

You said, "I surrendered, He resisted to the Spirit Drawing."

So, you were saved by your good work of surrendering, and, presumably, not resisting the Spirit's drawing, and he was lost for not doing the good work of surrendering and not resisting?

In that way you were better than your neighbor? You were more sensitive to the Spirit's drawing than he? You were morally superior because you were willing to surrender and he wasn't?

 

[TCassidy]

TCASSIDY? You ignore mine and then try and chastise me for being reluctant to answer your question?

I know because I understand and believe the Inspired, Inerrant, word of God. You remember, don't you? The verses I posted which you immediately dismissed as not applying to you?

 

[JonShaff]

No, you didn't. And lying about it won't change it.

Here it is again: Why did you decide to come to Christ and he decided not to?

In what way are you better, smarter, more spiritually minded than he?

I did answer it within your response. I said I surrendered and he resisted.

You really want to accuse the brethren?

if Calvinism produces your type of "humilty", I don't want any part of it.

For someone who has been in the ministry as long as you have your attitude doesn't reflect that.

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[JonShaff]

I know because I understand and believe the Inspired, Inerrant, word of God. You remember, don't you? The verses I posted which you immediately dismissed as not applying to you?

Pharisees claimed the same thing

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[TCassidy]

Pharisees claimed the same thing

So anyone who disagrees with you is a Pharisee? Even those who have spent 40 years in vocational ministry? Even those who have earned a Th.D.? Even those who have taught at the Seminary level for over 25 years?

Interesting exercise in humility there. Who is it that seems more like the Pharisee? Uh, well, Luke 18:11 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."

If the shoe fits, don't go away barefoot.

 

[JonShaff]

So anyone who disagrees with you is a Pharisee? Even those who have spent 40 years in vocational ministry? Even those who have earned a Th.D.? Even those who have taught at the Seminary level for over 25 years?

Interesting exercise in humility there. Who is it that seems more like the Pharisee? Uh, well, Luke 18:11 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."

If the shoe fits, don't go away barefoot.

As I said before, if Calvinism produces your type of "humility" I don't want any part of it.

And for being 30 years in the ministry I'd expect a softer and gentler attitude. I would hope to look up to you and learn from you. Scriptures teach us to be patient and gentle as we teach and instruct.

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[TCassidy]

Ad Hominem: The last refuge of the incompetent.

I asked you an honest question.

You couldn't honestly answer it.

So you started calling me names.

Yep. Sounds familiar.

As you lack the honestly, integrity, and spiritual maturity to continue this discussion, I guess it is over.

 

[JonShaff]

Ad Hominem: The last refuge of the incompetent.

I asked you an honest question.

You couldn't honestly answer it.

So you started calling me names.

Yep. Sounds familiar.

As you lack the honestly, integrity, and spiritual maturity to continue this discussion, I guess it is over.

I'm confused. I answered you. I said I surrendered and he resisted.

And quote where I called you names.

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[Iconoclast]

No, because gravity is a physical attribute of the world. It was here before the fall and after the fall.

My question is this--if man is totally depraved who made him that way?

You are not really interacting here Itl. I think I know why.

 

[Iconoclast]

No kidding it's flawed--who plugs the TV set into the wall, who turns on the TV set? Humans.

Again .......you miss the point of the analogy....I think I know why once again......that's ok....

 

[Iconoclast]

This is going to be self centered.
I have a question at the end?

I am not a calvinist.
I am not an arminianist.

I am a mugwump. Mug on one side of the fence wump on the other - someone else gave me that name - don't remember who.

I tried being a calvinist every other day then an arminian on the off days.
Didn't work well for me.

Personally I cant agree with all of the traditional details of either systematic theology although I was educated in a Bible school of mixed theological points of view.

Although coming (or driven to Christ) for me was a battle . I have said many times before, I am now an "easy-believer", because believing on Jesus is the easiest thing I know how to do to, in fact its second nature (maybe first nature?) to me.

Here is a verse:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Here is my question just for committed calvinist : In the calvinistic way of looking at things could not the Triune God have said in His own council : Let us choose the elect right now unconditionally and at our chosen time give each one of them the ability to come to Christ by decision, by being driven or whatever method of calling/coming suits our purpose.

If not why not?

After all we weren't there at this counsel (apart from being in the mind of God).

HankD

No......God ordained the means as well as the persons. It is an exact fixed number each of whom will be effectually drawn jn 6 :37-44

 

[InTheLight]

You are not really interacting here Itl. I think I know why.

Yes, I ask a question two times and get no answer and you say I'm not interacting.

I'm seeing a pattern here with how Calvinists deal with forthright questions. JonShaff's questions go unanswered by TC, you don't answer my questions, and apparently I'm in TC and IT's ignore list.

 

[JonShaff]

Ad Hominem: The last refuge of the incompetent.

I asked you an honest question.

You couldn't honestly answer it.

So you started calling me names.

Yep. Sounds familiar.

As you lack the honestly, integrity, and spiritual maturity to continue this discussion, I guess it is over.

I would love to continue the discussion, but in order to do so we should keep it in the spirit of peace and love for our Lord and each other.

Setting me up with a loaded question just so you could beat me down with "you think you're smarter or spiritually superior or you earned your salvation" was totally unnecessary and deceitful, brother.

 

[JonShaff]

And TCASSIDY, I didn't call you a pharisee. I implied that they would have had the same response as you, so how do you know you have ears to hear and aren't parroting what others have said???

 

[Internet Theologian]

You are not really interacting here Itl. I think I know why.

He's not contributed anything in a manner of grace on this board, typically snide, malicious, factious as others. Probably has been this way for years, seems his lifestyle.

 

[HankD]

No......God ordained the means as well as the persons. It is an exact fixed number each of whom will be effectually drawn jn 6 :37-44

I agreed with this from the beginning when I played the role of a calvinist.
"effectually drawn" is an adverbial statement that says nothing about the kind or methodology of drawing. God gives the ability and empowers the elect whom He chose unconditionally to make a decision they could not possibly make on their own. What is not calvinistic about that?

My point is that calvinists ought not to shun the word "decision" as it is a viable element in the series of events of salvation even under the calvinistic umbrella.

We were not there at the aforementioned "counsel of His own will" so we really don't know His criteria, and/or the order of events in the eternal state predestined to happen in the time continuum. The one thing we know from the scripture is our helpless/hopeless/powerless condition.

HankD

 

[agedman]

I agreed with this from the beginning when I played the role of a calvinist.
"effectually drawn" is an adverbial statement that says nothing about the kind or methodology of drawing. God gives the ability and empowers the elect whom He chose unconditionally to make a decision they could not possibly make on their own. What is not calvinistic about that?

My point is that calvinists ought not to shun the word "decision" as it is a viable element in the series of events of salvation even under the calvinistic umbrella.

We were not there at the aforementioned "counsel of His own will" so we really don't know His criteria, and/or the order of events in the eternal state predestined to happen in the time continuum. The one thing we know from the scripture is our helpless/hopeless/powerless condition.

HankD

I think I understand your point.

Your commenting upon the word decision as "an element in a series of events" which was authored and established for one saved in the "council of His own will."

Therefore, such a decision is part of any number of elements and decisions in the pre-established course of salvation and not a human initiated determination to accept or reject salvation.

Is this correct?

If this assumption of the reading of your post is correct, then it is Scriptural, for it places all the events in the framework of that which is responsive and not determinable. That is, such decisions are a response to the pre-established course rather than a determination of that course.

This is seen in Romans: "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Without the heart of righteousness, all the mind determinations of confessing do not result in salvation.

 

[agedman]

I agreed with this from the beginning when I played the role of a calvinist.

HankD

I suppose, one can play a role and leave the stage in disappointment and depression that the show is over, the stage safety light is on, the doors are locked, the marque no longer glittering, and it is on to acquiring and learning the role of another show.

However, don't you think it would be easier to play the dark roll of Arminian? It is so much easier to act out. All one has to do is poke fun at the truth and be villainous toward all other characters.

 

[JonShaff]

I suppose, one can play a role and leave the stage in disappointment and depression that the show is over, the stage safety light is on, the doors are locked, the marque no longer glittering, and it is on to acquiring and learning the role of another show.

However, don't you think it would be easier to play the dark roll of Arminian? It is so much easier to act out. All one has to do is poke fun at the truth and be villainous toward all other characters.

This may be just a poor attempt at humor, but come on. Calling brothers and sisters in Christ dark and villainous?

Wow...

Once again, if this is the type of spiritual maturity the beliefs system of Calvinist produce, I will pass.

Ephesians 5:2-4 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

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