Jerry Walls Refuting Calvinistic Soteriology

[SavedByGrace]

If it was not His will that the unsaved go to Hell, they would not go to Hell. Neither Ezekiel 18:23 or Romans 9:22 refute this. In fact, Romans 9:22 specifically says that some are prepared for destruction.

Your position on this would necessitate universalism.

You have much to learn if you are willing to

 

[Reformed1689]

You have much to learn if you are willing to

And I see, again, you did not actually interact with the argument because you can't.

 

[Brightfame52]

Thanks for presenting several of the bogus arguments used to defend false doctrine.

First the claim is made that people were unable to comply with part of the law because of total spiritual inability. But the rich young ruler had kept part of the Law, and this fact was acknowledged by Christ. In Matthew 19:21 Jesus does not deny the person had kept some of the commandments, but told his he had to do more to be complete. Thus Christ acknowledged the partial keeping of the Law. Therefore the Calvinist canard is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

The second claim is since God is a loving Father, he would not predetermine the lost to consignment to eternal punishment, but would justly send those without excuse to eternal punishment.

God can do as He pleases, and it pleases God to offer salvation to everyone who believes, and God has not predetermined who can believe.

Calvinism conflicts with scripture:

1) The lost would not be in the process of entering the kingdom (Matthew 23:13) if total spiritual inability were true.
2) God would not choose individuals for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13) if unconditional election were true.
3) Christ would not have laid down His life as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6) if Limited Atonement were true.
4) The lost entering the Kingdom would not have been prevented (Matthew 23:13) if Irresistible Grace were true.

The lost are dead spiritually to God in the things of salvation,

 

[Van]

The lost are dead spiritually to God in the things of salvation,

Mindless regurgitation of false doctrine is the hall-mark of Calvinists. Where the people of Matthew 23:13 addressed or ignored?
Why did Jesus speak in parables (Matthew 13) is His audience was unable to respond to plain presentation? Or why did God need to harden hearts (Romans 11) if they were already hardened so they could not respond?

No answers will be forthcoming, only other false claims.

 

[Iconoclast]

The lost are dead spiritually to God in the things of salvation,

The bible declares that but the poster in question adds to what is written to change what God had the men write.
1 cor 2:14 is clear....yet the poster says unsaved CAN INDEED understand spiritual milk??? Tricky reworking of the text which is a violation of the bible.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

could you not give your OWN respose?

The point is that it is false to suppose that us Calvinists do not believe there is a sense in which God wills the salvation not only of the elect, but of all men absolutely, so that He does have a love for the whole world. But there is distinct sense in which God wills the salvation only of the elect from the sense in which He wills the salvation both of the elect and reprobate alike.

The Scripture you cite from Ezekiel 18:23 does not contradict my Reformed/Calvinistic understanding of salvation.

I affirm that when the Scripture says, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9 ASV) it does not just refer to the elect, but to all men both elect and reprobate alike. However, I on the other hand, deny that the will of God that is spoken of here is His will of decree. It is not in His will of eternal purpose by which He effectually brings to pass whatsoever He eternally wills and predestines to take place that He wills the salvation of the reprobate.

 

[Van]

The bible declares that but the poster in question adds to what is written to change what God had the men write.
1 cor 2:14 is clear....yet the poster says unsaved CAN INDEED understand spiritual milk??? Tricky reworking of the text which is a violation of the bible.

Paul spoke to new Christians as to "men of flesh" using spiritual milk. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. So the false charge of "tricky reworking of the text" is yet just a denial of the obvious meaning of the text. Anytime a verse says something that conflicts with Calvinism, then its actual meaning is claimed to be a tricky reworking.

1) Putting our faith in Christ is not works, Romans 4
2) Seeking God while unsaved is done, Luke 13:23.
3) God puts individuals of His choosing into Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30.
4) God credits our faith as righteousness or not, Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.
5) In Him, In Christ, In His Beloved Son all refer to our status after God puts us into Christ.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The lost are dead spiritually to God in the things of salvation,

ALL the lost, not just some

 

[SavedByGrace]

it does not just refer to the elect, but to all men both elect and reprobate alike

then Calvinism is DEAD!

 

[Noah Hirsch]

then Calvinism is DEAD!

No, for nothing in affirming all five points of Calvinism is contrary to holding that there is a sense in which it may be acknowledged that God wills both the salvation of the elect and non-elect alike. For we may affirm this while at the same time affirming that there is a sense in which God only wills the salvation of the elect, and that He effectually wills the damnation of the reprobate to their perdition.

 

[Noah Hirsch]

ALL the lost, not just some

Yes, all the lost are spiritual dead, not just the elect. But that does not in anyway refute the fact that man being dead in sin must be made spiritually alive by the power and work of God. Man who is spiritually dead is wholly spiritually dead, and therefore devoid of any spiritual life, so that he can neither come to Christ by himself nor yet by the assisting grace of the Spirit believe or come to Christ.

If a sinner is made spiritually alive by God, then does he effectually believe unto salvation.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, all the lost are spiritual dead, not just the elect. But that does not in anyway refute the fact that man being dead in sin must be made spiritually alive by the power and work of God. Man who is spiritual dead is wholly spiritually dead, and therefore devoid of any spiritual life, so that he can neither come to Christ by himself nor yet by the assisting grace of the Spirit believe or come to Christ.

If a sinner is made spiritually alive by God, then does he effectually believe unto salvation.

if you read John 16, Jesus clearly says that when the Holy Spirit Comes, He will "convict the world of sin...because they do not believe in Me". All sinners need to be firstly "convicted" of their sins, and only then they can respond to the Gospel Message.

 

[Scott Downey]

It's right there in the text. We both agree no man can keep the law 100%. Yet Luke says:
Luke1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

He didn't say they did "believe the promises of God" (although they certainly did), he said they kept the commandments blameless, as Paul also said of himself before his conversion (Php.3:6).
But other scriptures say no man can keep the commandments blameless. So clearly, there was a level at which a man could obtain such a good report, even though that level was not that of 100% perfection. It was to that lesser level that they were held accountable, as evidenced by the fact that many OT men are said to have been "just" or "good".
The higher 100% level of perfection was simply used of God to show them their sinfulness and their need of an ultimate saviour.
There are many, many other verses about that set-up, but I'm trying to keep it short.

It is along the lines 'continually' that people fail to keep the law.
Those people were still alive when that was written, and had not yet failed to keep the laws and ordinances, but no one can do that their whole life without a single failure except Christ. Those people mentioned were still 'under the curse', just like Paul teaches, unless they have 'faith', but they they did have faith, so then were like believing Abraham. Indeed they must have had 'faith' because without faith it is impossible to please Him.

Galatians 3:9-13
New King James Version
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
The Law Brings a Curse
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is [a]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

 

[George Antonios]

Those people were still alive when that was written

If that's the counter-argument, I'll take it.

 

[Scott Downey]

The word 'faith' does not appear in scripture until Genesis 22 talking of Abraham, so was not specifically mentioned that Abel, Enoch, Noah had faith in their testimony stories.

Paul in Hebrews said those names did have faith and gives the evidentiary arguments that they did have faith. So people like Zacharias and Elizabeth also had faith, they had the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not see happen in their lives. So they must have had faith which pleased God.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[Brightfame52]

Mindless regurgitation of false doctrine is the hall-mark of Calvinists. Where the people of Matthew 23:13 addressed or ignored?
Why did Jesus speak in parables (Matthew 13) is His audience was unable to respond to plain presentation? Or why did God need to harden hearts (Romans 11) if they were already hardened so they could not respond?

No answers will be forthcoming, only other false claims.

Man naturally his mind is enmity against God, and cant be subject to God and cannot please God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Brightfame52]

The bible declares that but the poster in question adds to what is written to change what God had the men write.
1 cor 2:14 is clear....yet the poster says unsaved CAN INDEED understand spiritual milk??? Tricky reworking of the text which is a violation of the bible.

lol, If its spiritual he cant receive it and understand it 1 Cor 2:14

 

[Brightfame52]

ALL the lost, not just some

Sure but God only saves some from their lostness, the Elect.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Sure but God only saves some from their lostness, the Elect.

John 3 16 is clearly against this theology

 

[Brightfame52]

John 3 16 is clearly against this theology

No its not. It supports it. Those believing had been ordained to eternal life aforetime Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The world of the elect who believe God so loved, His Sheep