Jesus and the death Penalty?

[Thomas Helwys]

I'm saying the Sermon on the Mount is for INDIVIDUALS, not government. These are two different personalities. You have Jehovah, and Paul, against you right now.


And government is made up of.....you guessed it, individuals. I'll go by what Jesus taught since he is God in human form and the founder of the faith.



Just because it is the constant and popular argument doesn't mean it's true and correct.



If convictions are erroneous, those convictions were based on evidence gathered by the police, reviewed by the prosecution, presented to the judge, and brought before the jury. The sentences handed down are based on all these things. The DNA tests are a boon to the justice system, yes, but compared to the number of convicts in jail under the death penalty how many have actually been proven to be innocent ?
Also, organizations like the Innocence Project (?) do a very intensive study and review of evidences and trial records before they even proceed with a request for a re-trial and endorse (?) DNA testing for any convict who write them.




No, it is not. It is kinder than having the perp sit in his jail cell for years until he dies, exposing him to the cruelty, violence, and corruption within the penal system.
But you wouldn't understand that, because you've never been in even a municipal jail, have you ?



Hate to burst your balloon, but I have been in a county jail and a prison.



It is kindness to society, too, because society is not threatened with the danger of having the felon living in their midst once again, young or old.



Conversion is a process. It is a turning from right to wrong, or vice-versa. Peter had been converted from unbelief to belief, Paul too. The centurion converted from paganism to Judaism. A "hyper"-Calvinist may convert to being extremely Pelagian, and vice-versa. A "Christian" might convert to atheism. Conversion is a change.
Regeneration is not conversion.
Redemption is not conversion.
The latter is a product of the former



True. But in the process of life, they act like filth, think like filth, talk filth, and many have deeds that are filth. Ergo, the death penalty required by Jehovah for those who practice abomination and confusion within the nation Israel. Practices like sodomy or homosexuality, murder, or adultery. Did God who created man hope that with the sentence of death, those practices would be "deterred" ?


So, you would be in favor of the death penalty for those practices? Sounds like you would be more comfortable with Old Testament ethics rather than the New.



You are entitled to your opinion. and like I said, I'm not rabidly pro-death penalty. Just....well...comfortable with it as part of the law.



You're welcome. You should see me when I'm really riled up. hehehe. lol.

See my responses above in red.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The primary reason, other than personal theology, that any person should be against the death penalty is that we now know from DNA testing there are innocent people on death row. That alone should be enough to stop the executions.

You said this in another thread that no one rejoindered you on, but the actual facts are these..

DNA testing CANNOT (by definition) EVER "prove" the innocence of someone. It also NEVER HAS. It appears that your information comes straight from the "Innocence Project". That is NOT a reliable or objective source.

By it's very NATURE...DNA testing is utterly INCAPABLE of demonstrating the "innocence" of anyone....

DNA testing CAN demonstrate guilt....it cannot prove innocence. To argue for innocence would be (by definition) an argument from "ignorance"....namely, it is to say that the DNA that we suppose "should" or "might" be at the scene has not been found............

That's simply how it works. That does not mean that it isn't there. NOR does is mean that the alleged Perp is innnocent.

In short....Your magical DNA thing, can only, by it's very nature, "PROVE" guilt....it absolutely CANNOT "Prove" innocence...it never has, and it never will.

You are relying on terrible sources for your information.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

It is a false reason. Even if there were no one incorrectly convicted and the justice system worked perfectly without flaw he still would be against it. Don't let him fool ya.

ABSOLUTELY....don't let him lie to you. CTB doesn't care if there are either "innocent" or "guilty" people on death row....He just hates the notion of swift sure justice for sin.....He will conjure ANY argument he thinks we'll fall for to undermine it.

Mind you....this comes from a baby-murder fetishist.....Who cares what his respect for human life is. He doesn't give a D_ _ _n...about the sanctity of human life...and it's demonstratable.

 

[InTheLight]

Before you spew forth your patently false, ridiculous, stupid, and libelous blather, you might try to better control that mass between your ears.

Can I use that for my new signature? I mean, it's not copyrighted or anything, is it?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Can I use that for my new signature? I mean, it's not copyrighted or anything, is it?

:laugh: Just as long as you note I said it.

 

[InTheLight]

This thread is like a Who's-Who of my killfile. Eleven pages and I just read it in 2 minutes!

:laugh:

:applause:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I am opposed to the death penalty for the following reasons:

Thomas....You are mistaken in your position on the death penalty.

1. It goes against the teachings of Jesus - for instance, in the Sermon on the Mount.

Jesus NEVER mentioned the purpose and power of civil government on the Sermon...it has absolutely ZERO bearing on the topic....The "Sermon on the Mount" is beyond immaterial to the discussion of the proper Scriptural role of civil Government on Earth. If Jesus Christ did ANYTHING....it was to prove that his purpose was in NO WAY to alter "civil government" period...That wasn't Jesus' plan, it wasn't his purpose, and Jesus never once decried the rightful place of "Civil Government"....Frankly....Jesus didn't CARE. That's NOT why he came to Earth...He told us to "render unto Caesar"..Jesus was as "a-politcal" as one gets.

2. It has not proven to be a deterrent.

For starters...who claims that it's status as a "deterrent" is the issue? It isn't the issue.

However, I defy you to find any historical precedence wherein a swift and sure government punishes murder with death has NOT been a society in which murder was rare. It ABSOLUTELY is a deterrent, sir, but the modern U.S. "execution"..<---(pun unintended) of the death penalty has rendered it generally toothless. In the U.S.....we have so watered it down that it becomes practically useless....but that does NOT make it a non-deterrent by nature. I GUARANTEE you, that if you KNEW that upon conviction of murder you would hang within a week.....you'd find it to be a deterrent sir...you really would. My State...(Florida) has just introduced some legislation which will hopefully speed up the execution process by half. I think it will pass. My beloved state executes more people per-capita than Texas :thumbsup: And...we are legendary for executing more women than all other States in the Union...(even Texas). Soon..We'll be one of the swiftest paths to the chair as anywhere in the Western Hemisphere....and I'm durned proud about it.

3. If the conviction is in error, there is no chance to correct the error after the person is dead.

There is no chance to correct the "error" if the man spent 20 years in prison before his proof of innocence either. That argument fails on it's face. NOTHING can be returned to someone who spent 25 years in prison until his sentence of "death" was commuted....Everything is final, including a life-sentence, and any time a convict spent therein. They are ALL irrecoverable, and by definition. That's an argument designed to fool stupid people....But I'm not one. You can no more give a man Back 3 Years, than I can his life.....so your point FAILS.

4. Life in prison is often a greater punishment than the death penalty.

[edited]
Take ANY given 50 people on "death-row" and ask them if they would be happy for their sentence to be reduced to "life"....and see if they won't take it.

Seriously....gimme the facts of those on "death-row"....and prove that 90% of them wouldn't give ANYTHING to have their sentence commuted to "Life".....They'll take it in a heart-beat.....See the inestimable "Mumia-Abul-Jemal" <----whom you are championing...and see if he doesn't prefer "life" to the Death Penalty.

5. If the person is spared, there is a chance that he/she might be converted. It would be rather difficult for a dead person to be converted.

On the contrary....I believe un-abashadly that a man faced at age 42 with the reality of his sin and the penalty of his crime and the finallity of his judgement is in FAR greater position to understand the mortal decision with which he is faced....He now understands the price of sin as DEATH. He may come face-to-face with the truth of his blood-shed and that the penalty of sin is his "DEATH"....He may be shown the price for sin and cry out for mercy in eternity..a man in that position mayCLEARLY understand the ultimate and eternal consequence of sin, and come face-to-face with the condemnation for sin bringing him to a place of Godly fear and repentance....I work at a prison where no less than 2 months ago...a man who had literally tortured to death and subsequently killed several Federal agents died after MONTHS....rotting in a hospital. He NEVER came face-to-face with his eternal condition....he rotted in our prisons for 45 YEARS...He never felt the Godly hammer of the price for sin. He died peacefully in his sleep, actually. If he were faced twenty years ago with a sure and swift judgement for sin...pehaps he might have seen the need to cry out for eternal mercy. But the judge had enough "mercy" to give him the fleeting 25 extra years of hellish life on a fallen and decrepit Earth...instead of the chance to TRULY see his condition reference to ETERNITY!.... I think your position is more likely to condemn a man to an eternal Hell in order to preserve an extra 25 years of life in a cursed and sin-sick world....Your position isn't one of mercy. It's CRUEL and ETERNALLY condemnable. You are in love with life on sin-sick Earth....I pity the man whom you teach to take comfort in that.

6. To be pro-life requires a consistent life ethic

Yes.

- no abortion

Yes

no death penalty

BUNK!!! What are you trying to preserve? The happiness of individuals on this planet?. Are you obsessed with the temporary and fleeting pleasures of THIS LIFE!!!..."Anti-death-penalty" advocates are so obsessed with the rewards of "This life"....that, invariably....you will have your reward....It will be the fleeting pleasures of this sin-sick and fallen world that you offer to your convicts......YaY.....good for them.

no euthanasia

Yes.

no warmongering.

Off-topic...and you already know it.

 

[Alcott]

I am opposed to the death penalty for the following reasons:
1. It goes against the teachings of Jesus - for instance, in the Sermon on the Mount.

No more than 'life imprisonment' does.

2. It has not proven to be a deterrent.

Yeah? How many more buildings is Timothy McVeigh going to bomb?

3. If the conviction is in error, there is no chance to correct the error after the person is dead.

So holding someone in prison for years or decades can be "correct"ed by saying "Pardon our mistake-- you're free"? I'd prefer to have had the death penalty.

4. Life in prison is often a greater punishment than the death penalty.

How often? And based on what?

5. If the person is spared, there is a chance that he/she might be converted. It would be rather difficult for a dead person to be converted.

And if the person is sentenced to die, is there a chance that person may be converted then, but not later if not sentenced to die? More important, are we actually capable of thwarting God's decision as to who will and will not be saved? Don't we wish Elijah would have known that after the Mt. Carmel incident?

6. To be pro-life requires a consistent life ethic - no abortion, no death penalty, no euthanasia, no warmongering.

No warmongering? Why isn't it no war at all for any reason whatsoever? As well as no self-defense? No jumping out of tall buildings if you're being burned or asphyxiated [9-11]?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Thomas....You are mistaken in your position on the death penalty.

Jesus NEVER mentioned the purpose and power of civil government on the Sermon...it has absolutely ZERO bearing on the topic....The "Sermon on the Mount" is beyond immaterial to the discussion of the proper Scriptural role of civil Government on Earth. If Jesus Christ did ANYTHING....it was to prove that his purpose was in NO WAY to alter "civil government" period...That wasn't Jesus' plan, it wasn't his purpose, and Jesus never once decried the rightful place of "Civil Government"....Frankly....Jesus didn't CARE. That's NOT why he came to Earth...He told us to "render unto Caesar"..Jesus was as "a-politcal" as one gets.

For starters...who claims that it's status as a "deterrent" is the issue? It isn't the issue.

However, I defy you to find any historical precedence wherein a swift and sure government punishes murder with death has NOT been a society in which murder was rare. It ABSOLUTELY is a deterrent, sir, but the modern U.S. "execution"..<---(pun unintended) of the death penalty has rendered it generally toothless. In the U.S.....we have so watered it down that it becomes practically useless....but that does NOT make it a non-deterrent by nature. I GUARANTEE you, that if you KNEW that upon conviction of murder you would hang within a week.....you'd find it to be a deterrent sir...you really would. My State...(Florida) has just introduced some legislation which will hopefully speed up the execution process by half. I think it will pass. My beloved state executes more people per-capita than Texas :thumbsup: And...we are legendary for executing more women than all other States in the Union...(even Texas). Soon..We'll be one of the swiftest paths to the chair as anywhere in the Western Hemisphere....and I'm durned proud about it.
There is no chance to correct the "error" if the man spent 20 years in prison before his proof of innocence either. That argument fails on it's face. NOTHING can be returned to someone who spent 25 years in prison until his sentence of "death" was commuted....Everything is final, including a life-sentence, and any time a convict spent therein. They are ALL irrecoverable, and by definition. That's an argument designed to fool stupid people....But I'm not one. You can no more give a man Back 3 Years, than I can his life.....so your point FAILS.

Take ANY given 50 people on "death-row" and ask them if they would be happy for their sentence to be reduced to "life"....and see if they won't take it.

Seriously....gimme the facts of those on "death-row"....and prove that 90% of them wouldn't give ANYTHING to have their sentence commuted to "Life".....They'll take it in a heart-beat.....See the inestimable "Mumia-Abul-Jemal" <----whom you are championing...and see if he doesn't prefer "life" to the Death Penalty.

On the contrary....I believe un-abashadly that a man faced at age 42 with the reality of his sin and the penalty of his crime and the finallity of his judgement is in FAR greater position to understand the mortal decision with which he is faced....He now understands the price of sin as DEATH. He may come face-to-face with the truth of his blood-shed and that the penalty of sin is his "DEATH"....He may be shown the price for sin and cry out for mercy in eternity..a man in that position mayCLEARLY understand the ultimate and eternal consequence of sin, and come face-to-face with the condemnation for sin bringing him to a place of Godly fear and repentance....I work at a prison where no less than 2 months ago...a man who had literally tortured to death and subsequently killed several Federal agents died after MONTHS....rotting in a hospital. He NEVER came face-to-face with his eternal condition....he rotted in our prisons for 45 YEARS...He never felt the Godly hammer of the price for sin. He died peacefully in his sleep, actually. If he were faced twenty years ago with a sure and swift judgement for sin...pehaps he might have seen the need to cry out for eternal mercy. But the judge had enough "mercy" to give him the fleeting 25 extra years of hellish life on a fallen and decrepit Earth...instead of the chance to TRULY see his condition reference to ETERNITY!.... I think your position is more likely to condemn a man to an eternal Hell in order to preserve an extra 25 years of life in a cursed and sin-sick world....Your position isn't one of mercy. It's CRUEL and ETERNALLY condemnable. You are in love with life on sin-sick Earth....I pity the man whom you teach to take comfort in that.

Yes.

Yes

BUNK!!! What are you trying to preserve? The happiness of individuals on this planet?. Are you obsessed with the temporary and fleeting pleasures of THIS LIFE!!!..."Anti-death-penalty" advocates are so obsessed with the rewards of "This life"....that, invariably....you will have your reward....It will be the fleeting pleasures of this sin-sick and fallen world that you offer to your convicts......YaY.....good for them.

Yes.

Off-topic...and you already know it.

Just a couple of quick, brief comments on a couple of points because I have made my case, and you have not made yours:

Tell me what innocent person who having been in prison for a number of years would say when proven innocent and offered release, "No way! I'll continue to serve out my time!"?

Warmongering is absolutely not off topic, and you know it. Evangelicals are the first to clamor for some new war. They, like the neocons, never saw a war they didn't like. Yeah, let's go out and kill 'em for Christ!

 

[Mexdeaf]

The real issue here is much like the abortion issue- it's not so much about "death" as it is about the sanctity of life.

Christians, of all people, should support the value and protection of life.

And sometimes that will require the removal, via the death penalty, of people who do not value life.

Those who deny the value of the death penalty, in essence deny the value of human life.

 

[Iconoclast]

A nation sins when it fails to cleanse the land of the blood shed by the murderer;Nothing cleanses the land except the blood of the murderer.


3 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.

30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.

31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

 

[go2church]

Out of town today and the conversation has moved on quickly. Went back and read, but there are now so many posts going back would be counterproductive. I going to just jump in here, not ignoring anyone.

FTR I'm with Thomas, so ditto to what he said.

It is some leap to be anti life by not supporting the death penalty, wow!

So abortion okay then to save the life ofa fourteen year girl?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Out of town today and the conversation has moved on quickly. Went back and read, but there are now so many posts going back would be counterproductive. I going to just jump in here, not ignoring anyone.

FTR I'm with Thomas, so ditto to what he said.

It is some leap to be anti life by not supporting the death penalty, wow!

So abortion okay then to save the life ofa fourteen year girl?

From the death penalty to abortion, now THAT'S a leap.

You know full well what I am talking about.

 

[Mexdeaf]

A nation sins when it fails to cleanse the land of the blood shed by the murderer;Nothing cleanses the land except the blood of the murderer.


3 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.

30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.

31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

:thumbsup:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

The real issue here is much like the abortion issue- it's not so much about "death" as it is about the sanctity of life.

Christians, of all people, should support the value and protection of life.

And sometimes that will require the removal, via the death penalty, of people who do not value life.

Those who deny the value of the death penalty, in essence deny the value of human life.

What a crock of crap.

 

[Mexdeaf]

What a crock of crap.

I'm sorry, truly sorry that you feel that way.:tear:

But it does not change the fact of the matter.

 

[go2church]

From the death penalty to abortion, now THAT'S a leap.

You know full well what I am talking about.

Actually I don't, really.

I don't know how valuing putting people to death is valuing life. If the argument is tat by putting someone to death is protecting other life....wouldn't a jail cell provide the same thing?

To follow your logic, if a pregnancy would harm the mothers life, not in all cases but certainly a reality for a fourteen year old, wouldn't an abortion protect her life?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Just a couple of quick, brief comments on a couple of points because I have made my case, and you have not made yours:

You have STATED your case, as I have...no one has MADE theirs.

Tell me what innocent person who having been in prison for a number of years would say when proven innocent and offered release, "No way! I'll continue to serve out my time!"?

Of course, none would. But, it's not the fundamental issue, and it also works both ways. Tell me what innocent victim of oh, say....Willie Horton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Horton wouldn't have been safer if the convicted murderer wasn't
executed instead of set free to rape and torture?

Warmongering is absolutely not off topic, and you know it. Evangelicals are the first to clamor for some new war.

The phrase "war-mongering" is not a word designed to have reasonable discussion. No one is arguing for "war-mongering".

They, like the neocons, never saw a war they didn't like. Yeah, let's go out and kill 'em for Christ!

You're better than this. This is tirade, not reason.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

....wouldn't a jail cell provide the same thing?

Yes....until some deranged hippie liberal godless judge sets them free on an appeal.
Or the "Innocence Project" Convinces an activist judge that a patently guilty person is in fact "innocent"...
...or, they escape...
or they simply resort to murdering their fellow inmates and prison staff, yeah.

 

[Iconoclast]

2. It has not proven to be a deterrent

.

11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.