Jesus and the death Penalty?

[Luke2427]

I only know of one Holy Bible. is there another you would have me read?

Yes. I would like you to read the one where God commands the Jews to slaughter millions of people.

That is the real Bible.

I would like you to read the one where God told Noah to institue the death penalty.

I would like you to read the one which NEVER abrogates that teaching.

That God is the ONLY ONE who can make that decision? I agree.:thumbs:

And so that's why God told Noah to institute a law MEN were to shed men's blood if they committed murder???

Hmmmmm....

The Israelites were commanded by God to kill.



Who said He did not approve of it? I said He isn't giving His OKAY for men to do that now as He did in the OT. So you let me know the next time someone says they heard from God that it's okay to take somebody else's life.

All they have to do is read the Bible that never says men are supposed to STOP killing murderers and those who threaten national security.

 

[Zaac]

That's again.....false........NOT given to "Jews". You WANT this to be given to "JEWS" but it wasn't. I know you DESPERATELY need this to be a Levitical Law notion.....but it isn't, and I am not stupid enough to grant it to you.

Gosh I don't need your stamp of approval. God is God ALONE. The command was given to the Jews and god spoke to their leaders when He intended for them to exact punishment unto death.

This was NOT given to "Jews" it is absolutely NOT "Levitical" and it was not a part of a Legal system you may realistically equivocate with eating oysters.....

.

Who was it given to if not the Jews? No one said it was exclusive for the Jews. when God comes and speaks to US and gives His righteous judgment to exact the same kind of final judgment , then we too may do that. But I'm still waiting for your proof that He's speaking to you or any other man today and telling them to take a life as He did with the Israelites.

.I know you desperately want this to be the moral equivalent of mixing fabrics......but it isn't and any honest student of Scripture knows it,and only foolish men will fall for this. This is a Universal given distinctly before God revealed to us the table of Nations...........ALL men know this Universal moral law and this has NOTHING ZILCH NADA to do with Judaism or Mosaic Levitical Law.

You don't know what you think you know. The law is valid. But God ain't speaking to anyone telling them to do it as He did with the Israelites. As we are all guilty of breaking the same law and all worthy of death, why would He leave it to our equally unrighteous judgment as opposed to HIS righteous judgment?

 

[Zaac]

Yes. I would like you to read the one where God commands the Jews to slaughter millions of people.

That is the real Bible.

The command came from Him when they righteously killed.

I would like you to read the one where God told Noah to institute the death penalty.

I would like you to read the one which NEVER abrogates that teaching.

As soon as you read the one where the command of when to do so RIGHTEOUSLy always came from God.

And so that's why God told Noah to institute a law MEN were to shed men's blood if they committed murder???

Hmmmmm....

And the command to RIGHTEOUSLY do so always came from GOD, not other men.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Gosh I don't need your stamp of approval. God is God ALONE. The command was given to the Jews and god spoke to their leaders when He intended for them to exact punishment unto death.

.

Who was it given to if not the Jews? No one said it was exclusive for the Jews. when God comes and speaks to US and gives His righteous judgment to exact the same kind of final judgment , then we too may do that. But I'm still waiting for your proof that He's speaking to you or any other man today and telling them to take a life as He did with the Israelites.




You don't know what you think you know. The law is valid. But God ain't speaking to anyone telling them to do it as He did with the Israelites. As we are all guilty of breaking the same law and all worthy of death, why would He leave it to our equally unrighteous judgment as opposed to HIS righteous judgment?

There is no Biblical correction you will submit to.......You still insist on this being given to the "Israelites". That's patently false, the "Israelites" have NOTHING to do with it, and the injunction you have been repeatedly shown in Scripture Pre-dates Abraham by Centuries.....

You are either willfully ignorant of this, or worse, you are intentionally being deceitful.

Genesis 9 is the Scripture you are given............and it is NOT given to "Israelites"..beyond that, you obfuscate and defy Scriptural correction.

Dust.....
feet....
off......
shake.....
I will answer you not again, except you cease this Zeitgeist of pretending that this is unique to Judaism or "Israelites" because that is false, and "Israelites" were not even a discernable people-group when the injunctions in Genesis 9 were given.

 

[Luke2427]

The command came from Him when they righteously killed.



As soon as you read the one where the command of when to do so RIGHTEOUSLy always came from God.

So God intended Noah to kill murderers and then when Noah died a few years after God commanded him to kill murderers, then everybody was to STOP doing this???

Do you not see how silly this is???

You could follow the same line of reasoning with tithing. The only ones who were supposed to do it were the ones who got it DIRECTLY from the mouth of God.

You could apply it to commands about adultery. the only ones who were supposed to be faithful to their wives were the ones who saw the lightening and heard the thunder on Mount Sinai!!

They are also the only ones who were ever supposed to remember the Sabbath day.

And since we cannot pass judgment on murderers then we cannot pass judgment on ANYBODY.

The shoplifter has to be let go.

The bank robber CANNOT be convicted because only GOD can pass righteous judgment.

Do you not see how silly that is???

 

[Zaac]

There is no Biblical correction you will submit to.......You still insist on this being given to the "Israelites". That's patently false, the "Israelites" have NOTHING to do with it, and the injunction you have been repeatedly shown in Scripture Pre-dates Abraham by Centuries.....

Bible disagrees with ya. It was given to the Israelites.

You are either willfully ignorant of this, or worse, you are intentionally being deceitful.

Think whatever you like.

Genesis 9 is the Scripture you are given............and it is NOT given to "Israelites"..beyond that, you obfuscate and defy Scriptural correction.

Dust.....
feet....
off......
shake.....
I will answer you not again, except you cease this Zeitgeist of pretending that this is unique to Judaism or "Israelites" because that is false, and "Israelites" were not even a discernable people-group when the injunctions in Genesis 9 were given.

I didn't ask you to answer the first time.:laugh:

 

[Zaac]

So God intended Noah to kill murderers and then when Noah died a few years after God commanded him to kill murderers, then everybody was to STOP doing this???

Do you not see how silly this is???

What I see is each time God wanted to take a life, HE gave the command to the leaders.

You could follow the same line of reasoning with tithing. The only ones who were supposed to do it were the ones who got it DIRECTLY from the mouth of God.

You could apply it to commands about adultery. the only ones who were supposed to be faithful to their wives were the ones who saw the lightening and heard the thunder on Mount Sinai!!

They are also the only ones who were ever supposed to remember the Sabbath day.[/quote]

The only problem with your analogy is that none of those had anything to do with one person having to make a judgment against another.

And since we cannot pass judgment on murderers then we cannot pass judgment on ANYBODY.

If that's the false conclusion you reach, run with it.

The shoplifter has to be let go.

If you say so.

The bank robber CANNOT be convicted because only GOD can pass righteous judgment.

He's the only one who can RIGHTEOUSLY deem someone worthy of death. Otherwise we are all guilty of breaking the same law, and thus are incapable of righteously making such a judgment.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Bible disagrees with ya. It was given to the Israelites.QUOTE]

That is a lie sir......a Lie.
I will take any points deducted by mods for this statement, but it must be said.
It was NOT given to the "Israelites". I call you a liar and to your face before God and man. You are a liar.

 

[Luke2427]

What I see is each time God wanted to take a life, HE gave the command to the leaders.

Then his commands don't apply to any of us.

He gave ALL of them to leaders.

They are also the only ones who were ever supposed to remember the Sabbath day.

Wrong again.

God instituted the Sabbath from the very beginning about two thousand years before he gave the command to the Israelites.

The only problem with your analogy is that none of those had anything to do with one person having to make a judgment against another.

All of them did.

If one is an open adulterer the church is to judge him and excommunicate him. This requires passing judgment.

There were these people in the Old Testament called "JUDGES."

They were not God.


They were people and they were expected, generation after generation after generation to judge God's people.

This "nobody passes judgment but God" mess is something of your own making.

It is certainly not biblical.

 

[Luke2427]

He's the only one who can RIGHTEOUSLY deem someone worthy of death. Otherwise we are all guilty of breaking the same law, and thus are incapable of righteously making such a judgment.

This leads directly to anarchy and is thus the position of a mad man.

NOBODY but you thinks that we should not have people passing judgment on criminals of all sorts.

Your line of reasoning is silly.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

How convenient. Since He did not address the death penalty issue you cannot make that judgment except by your own bias.

I notice that when someone disagrees with you, that person according to you is biased. That's funny.

You believe the scriptures are inerrant, do you not? I don't use that word, but I choose to believe what Jesus said and taught. Strange that you do not.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

False....Christ "BECAME" sin for us....and that deserved death. In the sense that the Father counted it....Jesus did indeed deserve "death". I am not (as a non-Calvinist) utterly wed to all of the precepts of the Penal Substitution theory of atonement as they tend to be....But there is MUCH about it which is true indeed. And one facet of that is that God was punishing sin...REAL SIN....when he crucified his own Son. Christ "Became" sin...and God rightly punished it
The Scriptures defy you, and in absolutely NO uncertain terms: I quote the Scripture:
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
That is the Word of God and you may despise it at your pleasure...but that is PRECISELY what it says....You will note that this has NOTHING, ZILCH, NIL NADA to do with Levitical Law, but is an eternal precept stated after the flood LOOOOOONGG before the Levitical legal system was in view. That's inescapable.
The trick used is to pretend that ANYTHING in the Old Testament is under the banner of Levitical Law...That's false and deceitful upon it's face.

The world according to God's Holy Word existed for at least 2,000 years prior to the Noahician deluge, and there was no such thing as a "JEW". The first 5 chapters of Genesis (if anyone cares about what the Bible says) tells us about what is fully ONE-THIRD of all human history...33% There was no such thing as a "JEW"...until centuries AFTER the Noahic covenant either until Abram's calling. The Potempkin argument of equivocating anything in the OLD Testament to Levitical Law is a deceitful Zeitgeist. The Death Penalty doesn't rest upon Levitical Ordinance....It rests upon eternal absolute judicial decree.

The murder of Abel by Cain speaks to this issue CLEARLY!!!! Cain made the (obvious) assumption that as a murderer, he was subject to death by any who would avenge Abel.....

However, God decided to grant to Cain a special "mark" to prevent such a reprisal. God did NOT say or suggest that Cain should not fear that, or that death was not a fair penalty for murder, but rather that he had a special purpose which he NEEDED to specify by a special "mark" to protect him.

The Scripture is CLEARLY in favour of the Death Penalty. Like it or lump it.

I notice that those of you arguing for the death penalty have to go far back inti the OT for your support. Not one word from the NT or more specifically the words of Jesus do you use.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Why????
That's the "Blood-thirst" you accuse others of....I don't desire that.. Casey Anthony was acquitted. ACQUITTED.....As in, there was insufficient evidence to condemn her. YOU may desire the death of Casey....but us Death-penalty proponents have no desire for the shedding of innocent blood. She "MAY" have been guilty....but you, I think, stand alone, and on an island as desiring her death. You are too quick too desire dealing out death and judgement.
I believe in the death penalty.
I do not believe that Casey Anthony has been sufficiently proven in a reasonable court of law as having deserved it.
BTW: This is Florida..........Florida executes more women than even the State of Texas does....We will fry a chick in a heart-beat.............but only if they deserve it.

Anthony has not been legally demonstrated to deserve death. Having followed the trial, as a Floridian....I believe the trial was masterfully executed. The judge was impartial and a brilliant jurist. It was done correctly IMO....and if you lust for her blood, than you are wrong.

I don't lust for her blood, you idiot, and I highly resent you saying that. Look, the broad was guilty; there is absolutely no doubt about it. But in rambling on about that, you misrepresented and misunderstood my point, which was this: The fleshly part of us may want to see murderers executed, but Jesus did not condone that, and we should follow Him, not our own fleshly desires.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

The Bible is more than just what is highlighted in red-letter editions.

We don't get to ignore thousands of pages of the Bible for convenience sake and then say we just believe in following the words of Jesus.

The words of Jesus are no more the words of God than any other of the words of the Bible.

ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of GOD.

There is no where in the Bible where God says- "OKAY, now you can start ignoring all that other stuff I authored and just cling to the words of Jesus."

Interpreting the Bible in context is always essential. It is difficult at times. It means we have to discern between directives given only to a specific people at a specific time (like, 'kill every man, woman and child of Jericho) and when the commands are universal.

But, just because it is difficult at times, it does not mean that we get to just CHUNK most of it away for convenience sake.

That is a terrible hermeneutic.

There is no, absolutely no, biblical reason to think that the several passages advocating the death penalty are no longer applicable.

Even if the New Testament did not REPEAT them, we should still apply them because the New Testament does not say we should do away with them.

Until you have a passage that clearly states to do away with something in the OT- you embrace it.

You don't get to arbitrarily take scissors to the Word of God to suit you.

I go by Jesus's words and example. He stopped the execution of the woman caught in adultery. He preached the Sermon on the Mount. He stated, "You have heard it said, but I say to you..."

Jesus clearly had an ethical message that was quite different from that presented in parts of the OT. That cannot be denied.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

So how is that false? Christ STILL didn't commit any sin. The folks who put Him to death didn't have any idea that He would take on all sin, so they STILL had no way to righteously judge and put Him to death.

Because he was slaughtered for OUR iniquities- and here is the important point- BY GOD.

He was not sentenced by Herod and Pilate ultimately. He was sentenced by GOD.

God who GAVE us the death penalty, also PRACTICES the death penalty.

That same God told us in HIS WORD to utilize it.

To be against it, is to be against the Word of God- plain and simple.



Since when did God give us permission to ignore the Old Testament??

God did not kill Jesus. That is part of a definition of the atonement that I find, well, I'll not describe it here.

I believe we are to follow Jesus as the founder of our faith. And His ethic cannot be equated with that of parts of the OT.

 

[Luke2427]

God did not kill Jesus. That is part of a definition of the atonement that I find, well, I'll not describe it here.

I believe we are to follow Jesus as the founder of our faith. And His ethic cannot be equated with that of parts of the OT.

That's dualism.

The OT has not been abrogated. Gods values did not change in 3 AD.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

That's dualism.

The OT has not been abrogated. Gods values did not change in 3 AD.

No, and those values are supremely exemplified in the life and teachings of Jesus. When Jesus explicitly disavowed certain aspects of OT morality and justice, to whom do you listen? Did Jesus affirm the OT teaching of "an eye for an eye"? No, He did not.

 

[Zaac]

I don't lust for her blood, you idiot, and I highly resent you saying that. Look, the broad was guilty; there is absolutely no doubt about it. But in rambling on about that, you misrepresented and misunderstood my point, which was this: The fleshly part of us may want to see murderers executed, but Jesus did not condone that, and we should follow Him, not our own fleshly desires.

:applause: exactly. The very WHOLE of His fulfilled law shows that He has not intended for us to make a decision of death . That is perhaps why Scripture makes it clear that we're all guilty of breaking the same law.

And if you believe that another person is worthy of death because of his sin, then believe that you are too.

We always want to believe that the other guy is worse than we are and due the worst punishment. But scripture directs us to do just the opposite.“Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.” Philippians 2:3-4

 

[canadyjd]

I used to support the death penalty. I now believe for Christians to support the death penalty is contrary scripture and the specific command of God's Word to show mercy toward the worst of sinners.

I Tim. 1:16 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." NAS

The Apostle Paul had just explained how he was the foremost of sinners because of His persecution of the Christians. He says in Acts 26:10 he persecuted Christians even to the point of casting his vote to have them killed. Paul was a murderer of Christians.

The I Tim 1:16 passage is clear. Jesus showed mercy to the murderer Paul as an example of perfect patience to be followed by those who would believe in Christ for salvation.

Support for the death penalty, IMHO, is contrary Christ's command to follow His example of perfect patience when dealing with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

peace to youraying:

 

[Don]

I used to support the death penalty. I now believe for Christians to support the death penalty is contrary scripture and the specific command of God's Word to show mercy toward the worst of sinners.

I Tim. 1:16 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." NAS

The Apostle Paul had just explained how he was the foremost of sinners because of His persecution of the Christians. He says in Acts 26:10 he persecuted Christians even to the point of casting his vote to have them killed. Paul was a murderer of Christians.

The I Tim 1:16 passage is clear. Jesus showed mercy to the murderer Paul as an example of perfect patience to be followed by those who would believe in Christ for salvation.

Support for the death penalty, IMHO, is contrary Christ's command to follow His example of perfect patience when dealing with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

peace to youraying:

I understand what you're trying to say; but Paul didn't break the rules of the government. If the government found him guilty of murder, and sentenced him to death, would you oppose the government?