Jesus Christ: The Atonement For The Human Race

[JonC]

This is how my pea brain understands it

Propitiation = appeasement/something of GOD is satisfied--Namely, His Justice

Atonement = Man is made "At ONe" with God--To bring back into Favor/harmony

Pretty good explanation, but I don't believe we have to read something of God being satisfied (in 1 John 2:2, anyway) as much as something towards us (wrath), due to sin, being averted. The reason I see it this way is that up to this point John had spoken of not sinning, but that if we do we have an advocate in Christ.

That said, I can see it both ways (as adverting wrath and as appeasing God).

 

[Yeshua1]

Pretty good explanation, but I don't believe we have to read something of God being satisfied (in 1 John 2:2, anyway) as much as something towards us (wrath), due to sin, being averted. The reason I see it this way is that up to this point John had spoken of not sinning, but that if we do we have an advocate in Christ.

That said, I can see it both ways (as adverting wrath and as appeasing God).

Because the wrath of God has now been satisfied, God is now able to freely forgive the loss sinner and now reconcile him back....

 

[TCassidy]

God will only "call" the elect?

The Gospel call is Universal (as we have said over and over and over again).

 

[JonShaff]

Pretty good explanation, but I don't believe we have to read something of God being satisfied (in 1 John 2:2, anyway) as much as something towards us (wrath), due to sin, being averted. The reason I see it this way is that up to this point John had spoken of not sinning, but that if we do we have an advocate in Christ.

That said, I can see it both ways (as adverting wrath and as appeasing God).

I agree with what you're saying. I believe the Main emphasis here is that Something is being done *apart from Man*...that's the Kicker. God's Wrath Being averted or God's Justice being Satisfied doesn't necessitate man doing anything. The effects of that are applied to man, but that is a different story. I hope this makes sense

 

[JonC]

God is now able to

I know people understand things in different ways, but I cannot reconcile the above with my theological views.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The Gospel call is Universal (as we have said over and over and over again).

always glad to be reminded! . The question that I have for you Mr Cassidy, what exactly is this CALL? Is it to REPENTANCE and FAITH (Mark 1:15)?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Limited, as all free will is restricted by a sin natures, cannot will to do anything, just now certain things!

I am speaking of the God-given ability to respond to His call to salvation, which is only possible with the pre-convicting of God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Those who will be able to do such as the ones who are His own elect....

If God "enables" only His elect to receive the Gospel and be saved, then what is the purpose in preaching the same Gospel to the non-elect, seeing that God know full well that they can NEVER accept it, as He is not enabled them to? This makes God into a deceiver!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The lost are of their father, Satan, as there are only children of God by the new birth, or of the kingdom of Satan, by the physical birth!

Not so. A person that is not a believer is not necessary a follower of the devil! They are blind by the devil to stop them believing the Gospel and being saved. This cannot be their fault, as it is outside of their power. However, when they hear the Gospel Message, the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sins and they repent and believe and are saved. All are not, because they majority hate the Light and love darkness. Not because God does not want to save them, as the Bible tells us over and again.

 

[TCassidy]

always glad to be reminded! . The question that I have for you Mr Cassidy, what exactly is this CALL? Is it to REPENTANCE and FAITH (Mark 1:15)?

Luke 24:46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Luke 24:46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Or, as the best text has it, "repentance for remission of sins"

that said. The fact remains, that some believe that God regenerates the hearts of the elect before they can respond to the Gospel call, thereby enabling them to believe the Gospel and be saved. If, this is something only for the elect and predetermined before the foundation of the world, then the "offer" of the Gospel to the entire human race cannot be sincere, as God has placed a barrier for the "non-elect" as they CANNOT respond to the Message, because He will not enable them to believe!

 

[TCassidy]

Or, as the best text has it, "repentance for remission of sins"

Every Greek text reads και.

 

[Yeshua1]

If God "enables" only His elect to receive the Gospel and be saved, then what is the purpose in preaching the same Gospel to the non-elect, seeing that God know full well that they can NEVER accept it, as He is not enabled them to? This makes God into a deceiver!

God is saving out His own among all of sinful humanity, is that wrong?

 

[Yeshua1]

Not so. A person that is not a believer is not necessary a follower of the devil! They are blind by the devil to stop them believing the Gospel and being saved. This cannot be their fault, as it is outside of their power. However, when they hear the Gospel Message, the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sins and they repent and believe and are saved. All are not, because they majority hate the Light and love darkness. Not because God does not want to save them, as the Bible tells us over and again.

Those still dead in their sins are part of the Kingdom of satan, while those now saved are in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Or, as the best text has it, "repentance for remission of sins"

that said. The fact remains, that some believe that God regenerates the hearts of the elect before they can respond to the Gospel call, thereby enabling them to believe the Gospel and be saved. If, this is something only for the elect and predetermined before the foundation of the world, then the "offer" of the Gospel to the entire human race cannot be sincere, as God has placed a barrier for the "non-elect" as they CANNOT respond to the Message, because He will not enable them to believe!

God honors their "free will", as his offer is sincere unto all, and those who reject Jesus are not predestined by God for Hell, as he prdestined their end result, and they are still accountability for rejecting Christ.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Every Greek text reads και.

μετάνοιαν καὶ] A C D F H K L N W X Δ Θ Π Ψ 063 f1 f13 28 33 157 180 205 565 579 597 700 892 1006 1009 1010 1071 1079 1195 1216 1230 1241 1242 1243 1253 1292 1342 1344 1365 1424 1505 1546 1646 2148 2174 Byz Lect ita itaur itb itc itd ite itf itff2 itl itq itr1 vg syrs syrh syrpal arm eth geo slavmss Cyprian Eusebius Hilary Augustine Hesychius ς NA CEI ND Riv Dio TILC Nv
μετάνοιαν εἰς] p66,75 ‭à B syrp copsa copbo slavmss Diatessarona (Diatessaront) Diatessaronv WH NR NM

p66, (circa 200 CE) the oldest Greek authority
p75 (circa 175-225 CE),
The Diatessaron, (c 150 - 160 C.E.)
NIV, ESV, NASB, CSB, HCSB, NET Bible, NAS 1977

oldest Greek authority for καὶ, is the 5th cent, codex A

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

God honors their "free will", as his offer is sincere unto all, and those who reject Jesus are not predestined by God for Hell, as he prdestined their end result, and they are still accountability for rejecting Christ.

you can't have it both ways! If, as you say, that it is God Who "enables" the elect to respond to His Call; then it can only be, that He does not do the same for those who are non-elect. In which case they are not really "rejecting" Jesus, nor be accountable, as they have not been given any opportunity to respond to the Gospel, as any aid from the Holy Spirit, which the elect have, is withheld. They cannot reject or accept, as their "wills" are in "bondage" as some claim, and they cannot.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Those still dead in their sins are part of the Kingdom of satan, while those now saved are in the Kingdom of God.

that is not what we are talking about. It is whether ALL who have the Gospel preached to them, have the "ability" given by the Holy Spirit by His convicting, to either accept or reject the Gospel of salvation. If God "regenerates" the elect, and thereby enabling them to accept the Gospel, then the fact that the non-elect are "passed by", and do not have the same, can only mean that the Gospel that is preached to the non-elect, is both pointless and insincere, as God knows before that they can not respond, as He has made sure of this. This, my friend is a monstrous doctrine!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

God is saving out His own among all of sinful humanity, is that wrong?

what is wrong with your "theology", is that you have God send His Gospel Message for the salvation of ALL sinners, without exception; but has made sure that those who are not predetermined by Him to salvation, He has left unable to respond, as He has not given them the same "grace". This is a false presentation of the Gospel, because it is fully known before that the greater majority have been already excluded from ever accepting the Gospel, and can never be saved"! This is NOT taught anywhere in the Holy Bible.

 

[TCassidy]

oldest Greek authority for καὶ, is the 5th cent, codex A

You gotta learn the difference between a text and a manuscript. If not you will not be able to keep up with the discussion.