Jesus is the new Jonah

[Martin Marprelate]

The Spirit makes no bones about who killed Christ

No indeed. And you forgot John 5:16. All the verses you quoted are (of course) true, but until the time determined by God for the Lord Jesus to die had come, all their efforts were futile (John 7:30; 8:20; 10:39).
And consider:
Acts 4:27-28. 'For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered together, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.'

Philippians 2:5-8. '...... Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men, and being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.'

Isaiah 53 :10. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.'

In fact, it was you and I who killed Christ.
Isaiah 53:6. 'All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' If we had not sinned, God need not have sent our Lord to die in our place.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Satan would want Jesus to die on the cross because it would be the ultimate statement that this man was not the Messiah, was not King, and was not God.

Well that worked well for him, didn't it? Do you really think that the devil is such a brainless idiot?

You are assuming that the devil had impeccable atonement theology and insight into God's purposes, and I don't think he did. God blinds those who need to be blinded for His redemptive purposes. Satan is not omniscient and does not have perfect foreknowledge.

No indeed. But he is not stupid either and does have great power (eg. Luke 4:5-9). He would certainly have been aware of our Lord's words in, for example, Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:33-34. I've told you this before, but I will repeat it just once more in case you missed it. In Luke 4:13, that the devil departed from Christ until an opportune time. What more opportune time than Gethsemane? So what was Satan tempting our Lord to do? What was he saying to Him? "Yes, Jesus, obey your Father and go to the cross! Don't be afraid; it won't hurt much, and your Father is sure to come and rescue you!" Is that what you think?
Or was he not rather saying, "You don't have to go through with this ghastly ordeal! If You are of equal deity to God, prove it! Tell Him you won't do it!"
And when Christ was hanging on the cross, why weren't all the people saying, "Stay up there, Jesus! God will surely come and rescue You!" But they didn't. What made me absolutely certain about this question was preaching through Gethsemane and the cross this Easter, and noting the words of everybody (apart from Mary and John) who saw Him. Read for yourself Mark 15:29-32, and then Luke 23:36-37.

I am not adding to the words of Acts 4. I don't need to

i think you'll find that you are and you do.

- I have plenty of other texts to support my position. But your position is that sinners didn't kill Jesus anyway - God did, so I don't know why you would bring up verses like that. They support my position and not yours.

Now you are being silly, but to be pedantic, no one can kill God. The Lord Jesus 'gave up [literally, 'dismissed'] His Spirit' (John 19:30).

We have reached the point where we are just repeating ourselves. This is definitely my last post on this thread.

 

[Arthur King]

Well that worked well for him, didn't it? Do you really think that the devil is such a brainless idiot?

No indeed. But he is not stupid either and does have great power (eg. Luke 4:5-9). He would certainly have been aware of our Lord's words in, for example, Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:33-34. I've told you this before, but I will repeat it just once more in case you missed it. In Luke 4:13, that the devil departed from Christ until an opportune time. What more opportune time than Gethsemane? So what was Satan tempting our Lord to do? What was he saying to Him? "Yes, Jesus, obey your Father and go to the cross! Don't be afraid; it won't hurt much, and your Father is sure to come and rescue you!" Is that what you think?
Or was he not rather saying, "You don't have to go through with this ghastly ordeal! If You are of equal deity to God, prove it! Tell Him you won't do it!"
And when Christ was hanging on the cross, why weren't all the people saying, "Stay up there, Jesus! God will surely come and rescue You!" But they didn't. What made me absolutely certain about this question was preaching through Gethsemane and the cross this Easter, and noting the words of everybody (apart from Mary and John) who saw Him. Read for yourself Mark 15:29-32, and then Luke 23:36-37.

i think you'll find that you are and you do.

Now you are being silly, but to be pedantic, no one can kill God. The Lord Jesus 'gave up [literally, 'dismissed'] His Spirit' (John 19:30).

We have reached the point where we are just repeating ourselves. This is definitely my last post on this thread.

Bottom line is that our Lord explicitly states that Satan sought to murder him, the gospels are clear Satan played a chief role in orchestrating the crucifixion, and this fits into a larger narrative of Scripture of the serpent striking a fatal wound to the Son, the sea monster swallowing God’s prophet, the dragon seeking to devour the child, etc.

Yes, Satan also tempted Jesus to fail in his mission on the cross. Your inability to reconcile all these data points is your problem.

Our job as exegetes is to reconcile ALL the biblical data, not just take the 50% we understand and then pit that against the other data. If the text says that Gods hand was against the Son and Satan’s hand was against him, as it was against Job, then that is what we need to deal with. Not say “God struck the son not Satan.”

Maybe Satan did know that if Jesus died while maintaining his righteousness, that would be Satan’s defeat. But he still saw the cross was his best opportunity to get Jesus to fail in his obedience. Again, he wanted Jesus to forsake his mission and then to kill him.

I have offered an interpretation that reconciles all the biblical data, which is the task of the biblical exegete.

 

[Arthur King]

Bottom line is that our Lord explicitly states that Satan sought to murder him, the gospels are clear Satan played a chief role in orchestrating the crucifixion, and this fits into a larger narrative of Scripture of the serpent striking a fatal wound to the Son, the sea monster swallowing God’s prophet, the dragon seeking to devour the child, etc.

Yes, Satan also tempted Jesus to fail in his mission on the cross. Your inability to reconcile all these data points is your problem.

Our job as exegetes is to reconcile ALL the biblical data, not just take the 50% we understand and then pit that against the other data. If the text says that Gods hand was against the Son and Satan’s hand was against him, as it was against Job, then that is what we need to deal with. Not say “God struck the son not Satan.”

Maybe Satan did know that if Jesus died while maintaining his righteousness, that would be Satan’s defeat. But he still saw the cross was his best opportunity to get Jesus to fail in his obedience. Again, he wanted Jesus to forsake his mission and then to kill him.

I have offered an interpretation that reconciles all the biblical data, which is the task of the biblical exegete.

I repeat myself because there is no stronger argument I can against “the devil didn’t want to kill Jesus” than that Jesus explicitly states that the desires, deeds, and intentions of the devil are to murder him. If that doesn’t work, then nothing will.

 

[kyredneck]

15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

@Martin Marprelate

You reject this portion of scripture as being false: "thou shalt bruise his heel"

Do you reject this portion of scripture also?: "he shall bruise thy head"

 

[kyredneck]

We have reached the point where we are just repeating ourselves. This is definitely my last post on this thread.

..in lieu of having the intestinal fortitude to admit how wrong you are.

 

[Alan Gross]

Jesus says his death and resurrection is like being swallowed and then vomited back up by a sea monster

No He did not.

Jesus did say, in Revelation 3:16; "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

Death, who has already swallowed humanity because of our sin, swallows Christ as well, but in so doing swallows perfect divinity and sinlessness

Death swallowed humanity?

Death did not swallow perfect Divinity.

Death is therefore forced to vomit up humanity, hence the resurrection.

Death did not vomit up humanity.

Death is death and did not have power to cause the resurrection, death had no rational connection with the resurrection at all, and death did not vomit up humanity, to ipso facto cause anything but more death, least of all anything related to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To say, " death caused Jesus resurrection" is beyond ludicrous.

"Death is therefore forced to vomit up humanity, hence the resurrection."

God raised Jesus from the dead and released Him from death.

Acts 2:24
"But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches."

All of the Trinity was involved in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The Triune Godhead raised Jesus from the dead and the The Resurrection of Jesus Christ was not caused by death itself, Satan, and did not involve any sacrilegious, irreverent, profane "vomiting", of any kind, any where, at any time.

God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.
(Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37).

God raised Him up again:
(Rom. 4:24; 6:4 [through the glory of the Father]); 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12).

I Corinthians 6:14; "And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power."

Acts 2:32
God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

1 Corinthians 15:15-20
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ:..."

The Spirit of God raised Jesus from the dead.

Romans 6:10-11. The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.

Romans 8:11; "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Son Himself lays down His life and takes it up again —

17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Romans 1:4 “And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"

Verse 4. "And declared to be the Son of God",....He, the Son of God, who existed as such, from everlasting, was manifested in the flesh, or human nature: and this his divine sonship, and proper deity, are declared and made evident,

with, or "by"

[his] power; which has appeared in the creation of all things out of nothing; in upholding all things in their beings; in the government of the world, and works of Providence; in the miracles he wrought; in his performing the great work of redemption; in the success of his Gospel, to the conversion of sinners; and in the preservation of his churches and people: here it seems chiefly to regard the power of Christ in raising the dead, since it follows, and which is to be connected with this clause,

by the resurrection from the dead; ... the resurrection of his own body, which dying he had power to raise up again, and did; and which declared him to be, or clearly made it appear that he was the Son of God, a divine person, truly and properly God: and this was done

according to the Spirit of holiness; .. by the Spirit of holiness may be meant the divine nature of Christ, which, as it is holy, so by it Christ offered himself to God, and by it was quickened, or made alive, when he had been put to death in the flesh; and which must be a clear and strong proof of his being truly the Son of God.

 

[Alan Gross]

John Chrysostom on 1 Corinthians 10:23-24:

Just as when someone swallows food and can't keep it down and so vomits up what was in them; so this also was what happened to Death. Death swallowed the body of Christ, but Death could not digest it, and therefore had to vomit the body up. Indeed, Death travailed in pain, while he held Christ, and was straightened until He vomited Him up.

The Triune Godhead raised Jesus from the dead and the The Resurrection of Jesus Christ was not caused by Death itself, the inability for Death to digest Christ' body, or by Death having to vomit the body up, or by Death holding Christ until He(?) (who might that capital H, for He be?), vomited Him up and did not involve any sacrilegious, irreverent, profane talk like, "death could not digest Christ", "therefore Death had to vomit Christ' body up", as if Death caused the accomplishment of Jesus' resurrection and achieved for Him to power to be raised from the dead, in any way, any where, at any time.

Death, torn and racked in sunder while he held the body of the Lord in his belly.[/QUOTE]

What?

Death had indigestion while holding Jesus' body in "his" belly?

I picked a bad week to stop snorting glue...

And that which happened to the Babylonian dragon, when, having taken the food it burst asunder in the midst, this also happened unto him. For Christ came forth again not by the mouth of death, but by the belly of the dragon, having burst it asunder and ripped it up in the very midst.

There was no dragon that swallowed Jesus.

The Triune Godhead raised Jesus from the dead and the The Resurrection of Jesus Christ was not caused by "Christ coming forth from from the belly of a dragon" and did not involve any sacrilegious, irreverent, profane talk like, "Christ came forth from the belly of the dragon, having burst it asunder and ripped it up in the very mist", at all, in any way, any where, at any time.

Gregory of Nyssa:

“In that way, as it is with a greedy fish, he [Death] might swallow the Godhead like a fishhook along with the flesh, which was the bait.

Death did not swallow "the Godhead".

There was no "flesh" that was ever conceivable to be called, "bait".

The Triune Godhead raised Jesus from the dead and the The Death of Jesus Christ was not caused by Death itself, and did not involve any sacrilegious, irreverent, profane talk like, "Death swallowed the Godhead like a fishhook along with the flesh, which was the bait", in any way, any where, at any time.

John of Damascus:

Wherefore death approaches, and swallowing up the body as a bait is transfixed on the hook of divinity, and after tasting of a sinless and life-giving body, perishes, and brings up again all whom of old he swallowed up

Divinity has never been a hook.

The Triune Godhead raised Jesus from the dead and the The Death of Jesus Christ was not caused by Death itself, and did not involve any sacrilegious, irreverent, profane talk like, "Death swallowed up the body of Jesus as a bait is transfixed on the hook of divinity", in any way, any where, at any time.

Augustine (saying the Devil took the bait rather than Death) says:

The Devil exulted when Christ died, and by that very death of Christ the Devil was overcome: he took food, as it were, from a trap. He gloated over the death as if he were appointed a deputy of death; that in which he rejoiced became a prison for him. The cross of the Lord became a trap for the Devil; the death of the Lord was the food by which he was ensnared. And behold, our Lord Jesus Christ rose again. Where is the death which hung upon the cross?

The Triune Godhead raised Jesus from the dead and the The Death of Jesus Christ was not caused by Satan, as an appointed deputy of death, and did not involve any sacrilegious, irreverent, profane talk like "Jesus was food for the Devil, by which Satan was ensnared", in any way, any where, at any time.

Martin Luther:

Even so has our Lord God dealt with the devil; God has cast into the world his only Son, as the angle, and upon the hook has put Christ’s humanity, as the worm; then comes the devil and snaps at the (man) Christ, and devours him, and therewith he bites the iron hook, that is, the godhead of Christ, which chokes him, and all his power thereby is thrown to the ground. This is called sapientia divina, divine wisdom.

God did not cast into the world His only Son.

Jesus was not put on anything remotely imagined as a hook, in any way, at any time, and specifically not in any relationship to the devil.

Jesus was not a worm put on a hook, in any way, at any time, and Christ' humanity was never placed on anything resembling a hook in any way, at any time.

Satan did not snap at Jesus and devour Him, nor did Satan bite the Godhead of Christ.

To call this flesh-filled aberration sapientia divina, is like saying "God adores blasphemy".

The Triune Godhead raised Jesus from the dead and the The Death of Jesus Christ was not caused by Satan snapping at Him, while Christ' humanity was hanging on a hook, in any fashion, for Satan to then devour Him" and did not involve any sacrilegious, irreverent, profane crazy carnal talking like the above, in any way, any where, at any time.

Jesus is swallowed by the dragon of death, and blows it apart from within by his resurrection.

The Triune Godhead raised Jesus from the dead and the The Resurrection of Jesus Christ was not caused by death itself, Satan, and did not involve any sacrilegious, irreverent, profane "vomiting", of any kind, any where, at any time.

But this is how Jesus describes his own death! Jesus says his death is like being swallowed by a sea monster, and his resurrection like being vomited up by the sea monster

No, Jesus did not.

The Triune Godhead raised Jesus from the dead and the The Resurrection of Jesus Christ was not caused by death itself, Satan, and did not involve any sacrilegious, irreverent, profane "vomiting", of any kind, any where, at any time.

If we find this imagery grotesque today, then there is something deeply wrong with our understanding of the cross. We are in bad shape if we think that Jesus’ own descriptions of his death on the cross are “grotesque.”

The imagery you set forth with regard to Deity is far more severe in its offensiveness to God Almighty and His Son than just its supererogatory grotesqueness.

You might say, "there is something deeply wrong with you", in addition to there being something deeply wrong with your understanding of the cross."

And, exactly what, in the Name of God, do you think you are talking about, here?;

"We are in bad shape if we think that Jesus’ own descriptions of his death on the cross are “grotesque.”

Who is "we" supposed to be talking about that is "in bad shape"?

What did you post that was "Jesus' Own description of His death"?

Are you trying to say that you posted some description that Jesus made concerning His death on the cross that was "grotesque"?

Looks to me like you post more lies than you can afford.

You may need a Government Assistance Program of some sort.

They say in schools that "if you are a boy, you can be a girl", so they ought to be up on your line of reasoning.

I would be more impressed if Paul or one of the other apostles had written anything of that sort.

Amen. 10-4, on "would be more impressed".

Is that all that this is all about, btw?

The problem with the Church Fathers is that they take a statement of our Lord and put a spin on it that He does not suggest.

Amen.

 

[Alan Gross]

Can you show anywhere in the Bible that says that the devil exulted over the death of Christ as per Augustine?

Right.

But of course, when we come to the Bible we find that it was God Himself who crushed the Messiah (Isaiah 53:10 etc.). The crushing of a heel is not usually fatal. Maybe we need to look again at what that verse means.

True that!

The analogy that Jesus draws regarding his death is clear:

Just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea monster for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

Just as Jonah was swallowed by the sea monster and then vomited out, so also I will be swallowed by death and then vomited out.

The analogy that Jesus draws regarding his death is clear that Jesus makes no mention that He is going to be "swallowed by death and then vomited out".

So, we just need to leave that to a degenerate.

Who had the power of death? The devil.

You said, "the devil".

You sound as if you believe the devil has the attribute of resoluteness, in the power of death.

I see the verse you're talking about, but I'm beginning to feel more confident by the minute, to not believe a word you say.

John 10:17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" Hebrews 2:14.

from: Hebrews 2 Gill's Exposition

"that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; the devil is said to have the power of death, not because he can kill and destroy men at pleasure, but because he was the first introducer of sin, which brought death into the world, and so he was a murderer from the beginning; and he still tempts men to sin, and then accuses them of it, and terrifies and affrights them with death; and by divine permission has inflicted it,: ...and this he has done by death; "by his (Jesus') own death", as the Syriac and Arabic versions read; whereby he has abolished death itself, and sin the cause of it, and so Satan, whose empire is supported by it.

Jesus says that his death is an act of murder by the devil, which brought judgment on the devil. In speaking to the Pharisees in John 8, Jesus says,

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.

Is this what your imagery comes up with?

"Jesus says that his death is an act of murder by the devil".

Jesus said what?

Jesus said His death was an act of murder?

Jesus said He was murdered by the devil?

The gospels emphasize this narrative thread in other places. Before Judas betrays Jesus into the hands of sinners at the Last Supper, Jesus sees that Satan enters into him (John 13:27). Jesus sees his betrayal and murder as the work of Satan.

Really?

Jesus sees what?

Is this one of those, "that's the way it is in the Eyes of God", things?

It's beginning to sound like one.

Judas, Pilate, the Jews and soldiers did deliver up Jesus to be crucified and they were all most certainly influenced by Satan to do so.

However, Satan didn't work out any kind of murdering scheme that wasn't

1.) the absolutely determined will of the Lord Jesus, God of the Universe,

and 2.) The Activity of God in His Omnipotent Providence.

Your Satan you seemingly want to exalt, is a miniscule pawn, that had a role to play, just as a sideshow idiosyncrasy used by God in His overall Eternal Plan.

Satan is doomed.

Acts 2:23
"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

"Him being delivered,"....

1.) By himself, according to his own will, for he gave, or delivered himself for his people;

2.) and by his Father, who spared him not, but delivered him up for us all;

3.) and by Judas, one of his disciples, who, for a sum of money, delivered him into the hands of the Jews;

4.) and by them he was delivered up to Pilate, the Roman governor; and by him

5.) back again to the Jews, and to the soldiers, to crucify him:

"and all this by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God;

"God not only foreknew that it would be, but determined that it should be, who does all things after the counsel of his own will;

"and this for the salvation of his people,

"and for the glorifying of his divine perfections:

 

[Alan Gross]

Not for the first time, you misunderstand the clear meaning of Isaiah 53:10. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise (or 'crush') Him; He has put Him to grief' (cf. also Romans 3:25-26). It is God Himself who crushed the Son. Satan, like the serpent he is, struck at Christ all the way through His ministry; wicked men conspired against Him and crucified Him, but it was God Himself who crushed Him, and until you get that, you will not truly understand the cross.

O.K. Martin Marprelate usually posts things by which I can Worship God and I appreciate them!

Praise the God of the Bible!

Once it is understood, Isaiah 53:10 becomes the most wonderful verse for meditation. How the Father must love us to be pleased to crush His beloved Son; and how the Lord Jesus must love us to give Himself for us in such a terrible way (John 10:17-18; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 12:2).

Hello! The appearance of Spiritual nourishment, in a barren wasteland.

Refreshing my soul!!!

You are trying to say "God crushed the Son, therefore Satan did not crush the Son."

Satan had people deliver Jesus up to be crucified.

I believe the Record is, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

You are also trying to argue "God crushed the Son, therefore the Son's suffering was the deserved suffering of a guilty person,"

Why would He die, if it wasn't the wages of sin???

Isaiah 53 explicitly states that the Servant's suffering was unjust.

There we go, popping out the "explicitly states" motto.

but is he "satisfying wrath" on Isaac?

Abraham didn't lay a hand on Isaac, you tell me.

That Abraham is "striking" his son provides zero evidence that he is "satisfying wrath" on his son.

Abraham didn't strike anybody and wasn't going to strick anybody.

That is the core claim of penal substitution. Jesus, in some sense, becomes guilty before God, and justly suffers the wrath of God in our place.

Correct interpretation.

Isaiah 53:11. By His knowledge, My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquity.'

Done!

hallelujah, praise God, praise the Lord, hosanna, alleluia, glory be, praise be, heaven be praised, thanks be to God, thank God, bless the Lord, thank heaven, hurray, hurrah!

So you do affirm the claim of penal substitution that "the Son's suffering was the deserved suffering of a guilty person," and that is what Isaiah 53:11 means?

"the Son's suffering was the deserved suffering of an Innocent Person, Who could never have experienced death, if it had not been the the sins and sin-guiltiness of a guilty person, me, having been imputed to His Being, causing His vicariously deserved suffering, as my substitute, and ultimately His Sacrificial and Satisfactory death on the cross, in my place.

Plainly you do not understand it at the present time.

'The doctrine of penal substitution states that God gave Himself in the person of His Son to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.'
Pierced for our Transgressions by Jeffery, Ovey and Sach.

Behold! I love it!

Joseph is an interesting type of Christ.
Genesis 45:8; 50:20. "So now, it was not you who sent me here, but God ........... But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

To borrow the Genesis passage and add some things into it;

"So now, it was not you, Satan, by your Determinant Counsel, who sent me Jesus, to the cross, here, but God, by His Determinant Counsel and Foreknowledge ........... But as for you, Satan, Judas, Pilate, the Jews, the soldiers, you by wicked hands, meant evil against me, by delivering Me up to be crucified in your Fallen Angel and human responsibility; but ultimately in His Omnipotent Providence, God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

Just out of interest, apart from Genesis 3:15, what Bible text are you using for your claim that Satan crushed the Lord Jesus?

Wow.

-Just as what his brothers meant for evil against Joseph, God predestined for the salvation of many,
so also what humanity and the devil meant for evil against Jesus, God predestined for the salvation of many.

Who Woke You Up and Provoked you unto Love and Good Works????

God predestined?

the salvation of many?

God predestined for the salvation of many???

Those are true statements coming from you!

I'm ready for bed, now

 

[timtofly]

Just as Jonah was swallowed by the sea monster and then vomited out, so also I will be swallowed by death and then vomited out.

Here I thought it was just the time required by Jews to be officially dead? Matthew 27:63

"Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again."

That is all those people got from Jesus.

If anything, Jonah was the antithesis of Jesus.

Jesus would have used something from the OT his audience would relate to. Personally I think the only point was the one they remembered, the length of time.

But if we are speculating, the means by which Jonah experienced his 3 days, was to get Jonah back on track. Since it took 3 days, then Jonah had traveled 3 days in the wrong direction, and I think that God purposely let Jonah get 3 days across the Mediterranean, to prove a point. The very point that Jesus needed to be in the grave for 3 days.

"Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."

Jonah was the epitome of disobedience. Jesus was the epitome of obedience.

The sign of Jonah was that God can resurrect the dead. God can even save and show mercy to 120,000 humans who repent.

Obviously those who were responsible for the death of Jesus, did not repent, nor turn from their wickedness. They never could acknowledge that God raised Jesus from the dead, just like Jonah was given another chance by going through the valley of the shadow of death to get back on track. Jonah never appreciated what God did either. Jonah was like those of Jesus day who rejected their Messiah.

While Jonah, reluctantly carried out God's will and a city was saved, so those who crucified Jesus carried out God's plan for the redemption of mankind.

 

[kyredneck]

If anything, Jonah was the antithesis of Jesus.

<sigh> Jonah is the type; Jesus is the antitype.

 

[timtofly]

This is John 8. Key phrases highlighted in bold.

They answered and said to Him,

“Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them,

“If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

They said to Him,

“We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”

Jesus said to them,

“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

Jesus is explicit here that their "seeking to kill him" is the "deeds of their father" who is the devil. Is Jesus wrong that the devil seeks to kill him? It sounds like you are saying that you are smarter than Jesus about the devil's intentions.

He repeats again that they "want to do the desires of their father" the devil. What is his desire? Jesus makes it plain "He was a murderer from the beginning."

Whatever our questions about the devil's stupidity or his rationale, they are downstream from the Scriptural data - we know that the devil sought to kill Jesus (John 8), and that he struck Jesus a fatal wound (Gen 3). We know that the devil had the power of death until the death of Jesus rendered him powerless with regard to it (Heb 2). God in His sovereignty limits knowledge and blinds His enemies to information in order to carry out His purposes. So I think the devil's knowledge most certainly could be incomplete.He does not hear (or understand) the words of God, because he is not of God.

I could list more texts, but this is more than sufficient for now. I don't feel you have dealt with the explicit nature of even the texts given thus far.

I don't think crucifixion was the death that Satan actually wanted if Satan indeed wanted Jesus dead. Satan would never be able to simply kill Jesus, not even with the Cross. That was God's plan, not Satan's.

That is evident in trying to get Jesus to disobey, then God would have to kill Jesus prematurely, so to speak. I doubt the argument was/is about Satan wanting Jesus dead.

The argument is that the Cross was the means of Satan crushing Jesus, and that would be a resounding: NO.

How was Satan tempting Jesus a fatal wound? That was the only chance Satan was given to "bruise his heal".

Satan is not mentioned once in Isaiah 53.

There is still going to be a time when Jesus, in obedience to God, may have to turn over the entire kingship of earth to Satan, and surely Satan will spin that as a defeat to both Jesus and God, as Satan convinces humanity he is now "God". So the bruising of the heal is certainly not totally fulfilled. Even when Satan is defeated and bound for a thousand years, God still allows one more chance to bruise his heal. Satan leads a human rebellion once more against the authority of Jesus and the kingdom.

Three times in history, where Satan is crushed and defeated.

 

[timtofly]

<sigh> Jonah is the type; Jesus is the antitype.

So we are to be disobedient, instead of obedient?

I specifically said antithesis to avoid the boring and misleading theological explanation everyone brings up as their understanding.

I think you have your heroes mislabeled.

 

[timtofly]

Satan did not kill Christ; God did.

Again, this is just not now God's sovereignty works. God struck the Son through Satan and sinful humans unjustly killing him. The sword of the lord is forged from the sins and injustices of Satan and human beings.

And I don't know how in the world you reconcile " Satan was desperately trying to keep Christ from dying on the cross" with Jesus' explicit statements that Satan was seeking to murder him, as well as all the details about Satan orchestrating the crucifixion.

John 10:17-20

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?"

This argument that Satan orchestrated the death sounds close to those of that day which argued Jesus was mad and possessed of Satan.

Jesus had already pointed out that it was not man nor Satan who orchestrated. I assume you mean "planned this all out". If we are going with God's sovereignty why not say God allowed Satan to think that, and you are just as decieved about it as Satan was?

I also differ from theology, and state that God Himself was on the Cross. Jesus claimed that only He as God could lay down His own physical life and literally die. That no man could take it from Him, nor give it back. Only God did that in God's plan from before creation. That was the command that Jesus was to obey. That is still Isaiah 53 in motion. Satan was not exempt from that point by being an angel and not a man. Jesus was not possessed by Satan to die on the Cross. Satan did not plan it out, God did. Even to the point of Judas being possessed by Satan to earn money by turning Jesus over to the priests. Genesis 22:8

"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

Why did Abraham lie to Isaac, when Abraham knew Isaac was the sacrifice? Abraham also knew that Isaac would be raised from the dead, if necessary, because that Lamb was a seed of Isaac. Abraham knew that Lamb was as much the Son of God as Isaac was his own son. If Isaac was dead, so was the promised seed.

Paul pointed this out:

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son."

 

[kyredneck]

So we are to be disobedient, instead of obedient?

It's not about 'us'.

Jonah Chapter 4 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)