Jesus is the new Jonah

[37818]

The analogy that Jesus draws regarding his death is clear:

Rather of the time in His burial, 1 Corinthians 15:4, ". . . And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . ."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I already responded to this in a previous post. Copy and pasting here:

The analogy that Jesus draws regarding his death from Jonah is clear:

Just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea monster for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

Just as Jonah was swallowed by the sea monster and then vomited out, so also I will be swallowed by death and then vomited out.

Who had the power of death? The devil. How was the devil deprived of his power of death? The death of Christ. This is precisely what the author of Hebrews says:

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, Jesus Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. (2:14-15)

Jesus says that his death is an act of murder by the devil, which brought judgment on the devil. In speaking to the Pharisees in John 8, Jesus says,

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him.

Jesus also says that his death is an act of judgment, but Jesus says it is judgment upon the devil. See John 12:31-33:

Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.” Now He was saying this to indicate what kind of death He was going to die.

Jesus does say that in his death “judgment is upon this world.” But who is being judged? “The ruler of this world will be cast out”. It is the devil, the “ruler of this world” who is being judged. Notice the parallelism between “Now judgment is upon this world; Now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” The judgment upon the world is casting out the ruler of this world. In John 14:30, when Jesus speaks of his death he says “the ruler of this world is coming.” Jesus again repeats this point in John 16:6-11, when he speaks about the sending of the Holy Spirit:

And [The Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

The gospels emphasize this narrative thread in other places. Before Judas betrays Jesus into the hands of sinners at the Last Supper, Jesus sees that Satan enters into him (John 13:27). Jesus sees his betrayal and murder as the work of Satan.

In Matthew and Luke, Jesus repeatedly calls the Pharisees a “brood of vipers.” This is a reference to the promise of Genesis 3, the first gospel presentation in the Bible, that the son of the woman would strike the head of the serpent, but the serpent would strike the heel of the Son of the woman, and there would be conflict between the descendants of the Son and the descendants of the Serpent (the brood of vipers). Jesus is saying that his death is when the Serpent strikes the heel of the Son, as the culmination of the conflict between the descendants of the woman and the descendants of the serpent.

So you actually have no text that states that Satan crushed the Lord Jesus. Thank you for making that clear.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Joseph is a great example of a type of Christ:

It's nice that we can agree on that.

Joseph's suffering, at the hands of his brothers and at the hands of Potiphar's wife, was unjust. Are you saying that his suffering was just/deserved because God sovereignly ordained that it would happen? That if God ordains a person's suffering, that therefore that person's suffering must be just/deserved? That is what your view would entail.

Again, I argue that God can ordain that acts of injustice and sins take place, without Himself being unjust or the agent of sin. Therefore, God's sovereignty and His ordaining of events cannot be used as evidence that all acts taking place in those events are righteous or deserved.

Nothing that God does can be unjust (eg. Deuteronomy 32:3-4). But there is Genesis 45:8, like a great big fat elephant sitting in your bathroom. "It was not you who sent me here, but God." How much more plain do you want the Scriptures to be? For His own high and perfect purposes God allows suffering for His people. Philippians 1:29 declares, 'For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.' The Greek word translated 'granted' is charizomai, from which we get the word charismatic. So suffering is a gift of God, a spiritual gift if you like. It's not the one that everybody wants, but the suffering of a Christian, nobly borne, can be very attractive to people outside the faith.
And the Lord Jesus accepted that suffering, not from Satan, but from the hand of God, saying, "If this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done" (Matthew 26:42).

 

[Arthur King]

So you actually have no text that states that Satan crushed the Lord Jesus. Thank you for making that clear.

The Hebrew word used in the proto evangelion of Genesis 3:15 of what the serpent does to the son can be translated "crush" "break" or "overwhelm." So yes, the Bible does say that the devil crushed the Son—in the very first gospel presentation.

But does your argument hinge on the difference between the actions of "crushing" and "murdering"? Is your argument, "well sure, Satan murdered Jesus, but he didn't crush him."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Hebrew word used in the proto evangelion of Genesis 3:15 of what the serpent does to the son can be translated "crush" "break" or "overwhelm." So yes, the Bible does say that the devil crushed the Son—in the very first gospel presentation.

But does your argument hinge on the difference between the actions of "crushing" and "murdering"? Is your argument, "well sure, Satan murdered Jesus, but he didn't crush him."

Try not to be silly. Is it really your argument that Satan murdered our Lord's heel?

 

[Arthur King]

Try not to be silly. Is it really your argument that Satan murdered our Lord's heel?

Huh? The proto evangelion means this:

Just as the serpent struck/crushed/wounded the Son's heel, so also the devil murdered/crushed/wounded Christ.

Just as the serpent's act was his own defeat, so also was the devil's act his own defeat. As Hebrews says, the devil lost the power of death in the death of Christ. The devil murdered the Human who had no sin, thus losing his power of death over Humanity.

That is the purpose of the "heel" imagery. It is a depiction of the serpent/devil being conquered at the very moment when he thought himself to have conquered. The Son slays the serpent, but in so doing suffers a fatal wound against himself.

 

[Van]

To paraphrase Mr. Benson,
"I know Jesus the Christ,
Jesus the Christ is a friend of mine,
Jonah is no Jesus the Christ.

 

[Arthur King]

To paraphrase Mr. Benson,
"I know Jesus the Christ,
Jesus the Christ is a friend of mine,
Jonah is no Jesus the Christ.

Are you disagreeing with Jesus about the analogy he draws between himself and Jonah?

 

[Van]

Are you disagreeing with Jesus about the analogy he draws between himself and Jonah?

Please state with clarity your view? I never disagree with Jesus's stated truths.
Jonah is no Jesus the Christ.

 

[Arthur King]

Please state with clarity your view? I never disagree with Jesus's stated truths.
Jonah is no Jesus the Christ.

Obviously, Jonah is no Jesus. I guess I just don't understand the point you were seeking to make in your original post.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Huh? The proto evangelion means this:

Just as the serpent struck/crushed/wounded the Son's heel, so also the devil murdered/crushed/wounded Christ.

Just as the serpent's act was his own defeat, so also was the devil's act his own defeat. As Hebrews says, the devil lost the power of death in the death of Christ. The devil murdered the Human who had no sin, thus losing his power of death over Humanity.

That is the purpose of the "heel" imagery. It is a depiction of the serpent/devil being conquered at the very moment when he thought himself to have conquered. The Son slays the serpent, but in so doing suffers a fatal wound against himself.

The proto-evangelion does not mean that Satan kills Christ.
The curse upon Satan starts in Genesis 3:14. '.... On your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.' So the imagery of Genesis 3:14-15 is of the snake in the grass striking at the heel of the Seed, and of Him turning and stamping on the snake's head.
The Lord Jesus is driven (Mark 1:12) into the wilderness to face Satan as Adam should have faced him. Satan's temptation, as with Adam, is for Him to disobey God and do His own thing. Our Lord faced down Satan (Matthew 4:1-11), rejecting each temptation with a reference to obeying God. Then we read that, 'When the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time' (Luke 4:13; cf. John 14:30). When would be more opportune than just before Gethsemane? Satan enters into Judas Iscariot, causing our Lord to be 'troubled in Spirit' (John 13:21), Satan also leads Peter to deny Him, so that when they come to Gethsemane, knowing what will happen, Jesus declares, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death' (Mark 14:34). So now, Satan can really get to work on Him: "You don't have to go through with this; there has to be another way ........You are of equal deity to the Father; tell Him you won't do it ....... There has to be another way; listen to me, we'll sort something out." Even on the cross, Satan has the passers-by, the chief priests and the malefactors all telling Him not to go through with it; to come down from the cross (Mark 15:29-32). Satan knew that if Christ was obedient to the Father, even unto death (Philippians 2:8), he was defeated.
How our Lord actually stamps on Satan's head, I'm going to save for another thread, which I will try to post over the weekend.

 

[Arthur King]

The proto-evangelion does not mean that Satan kills Christ.
The curse upon Satan starts in Genesis 3:14. '.... On your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.' So the imagery of Genesis 3:14-15 is of the snake in the grass striking at the heel of the Seed, and of Him turning and stamping on the snake's head.
The Lord Jesus is driven (Mark 1:12) into the wilderness to face Satan as Adam should have faced him. Satan's temptation, as with Adam, is for Him to disobey God and do His own thing. Our Lord faced down Satan (Matthew 4:1-11), rejecting each temptation with a reference to obeying God. Then we read that, 'When the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time' (Luke 4:13; cf. John 14:30). When would be more opportune than just before Gethsemane? Satan enters into Judas Iscariot, causing our Lord to be 'troubled in Spirit' (John 13:21), Satan also leads Peter to deny Him, so that when they come to Gethsemane, knowing what will happen, Jesus declares, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death' (Mark 14:34). So now, Satan can really get to work on Him: "You don't have to go through with this; there has to be another way ........You are of equal deity to the Father; tell Him you won't do it ....... There has to be another way; listen to me, we'll sort something out." Even on the cross, Satan has the passers-by, the chief priests and the malefactors all telling Him not to go through with it; to come down from the cross (Mark 15:29-32). Satan knew that if Christ was obedient to the Father, even unto death (Philippians 2:8), he was defeated.
How our Lord actually stamps on Satan's head, I'm going to save for another thread, which I will try to post over the weekend.

Is your thesis that the devil did not murder Jesus? Your objection is that if the devil did want to murder Jesus, then he wouldn't tempt Jesus away from the cross—is that correct?

Interested to hear your take on what Jesus meant when he said that the devil was a murderer seeking to murder him—which completely fits with the serpent striking the heel of the Son. Was Jesus wrong that the devil was a murderer seeking to murder him?

Of course, Jesus went to his death willingly, and of course, God ordained it would happen. But many texts tell us that Jesus' death was at the hands of the devil. It is very common for torturers of the righteous to tempt them to renounce their values and loyalties before killing them. I think ultimately the devil wanted Jesus to give up on his mission before killing him.

 

[Alcott]

There are differences. As Jesus was in the belly of the earth, that's a whale of a belly; while Jonah was just in the belly of a whale.

 

[Arthur King]

There are differences. As Jesus was in the belly of the earth, that's a whale of a belly; while Jonah was just in the belly of a whale.

Dad jokes and theology have always been best friends.

 

[Van]

Obviously, Jonah is no Jesus. I guess I just don't understand the point you were seeking to make in your original post.

I thought the point, Jonah is no Jesus, was clearly stated.
What is the "analogy he [Jesus] draws between himself and Jonah? Please state with clarity your view?
1) Matthew 12:39, Matthew 16:4 and Luke 11:29: Jesus will demonstrate His Godly authority by rising from the grave after 3 days and 3 nights as Jonah did?
2) Matthew 12:41 and Luke 11:32: Jesus is greater than Jonah?

 

[Arthur King]

I thought the point, Jonah is no Jesus, was clearly stated.
What is the "analogy he [Jesus] draws between himself and Jonah? Please state with clarity your view?
1) Matthew 12:39, Matthew 16:4 and Luke 11:29: Jesus will demonstrate His Godly authority by rising from the grave after 3 days and 3 nights as Jonah did?
2) Matthew 12:41 and Luke 11:32: Jesus is greater than Jonah?

"What is the "analogy he [Jesus] draws between himself and Jonah? Please state with clarity your view?"

Jesus says it himself:

"Just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea monster for three days and three nights,
so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights."

 

[Van]

"What is the "analogy he [Jesus] draws between himself and Jonah? Please state with clarity your view?"

Jesus says it himself:

"Just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea monster for three days and three nights,
so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights."

My post 23 did not question that Jesus indicated that one of His confirming miracles would be to arise after 3 days and 3 nights.

My post #35, provided three verses the same or similar to your quote.

Where is the beef?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Interested to hear your take on what Jesus meant when he said that the devil was a murderer seeking to murder him—which completely fits with the serpent striking the heel of the Son. Was Jesus wrong that the devil was a murderer seeking to murder him?

The devil was a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44) when he brought about the deaths of Adam and Eve and all their progeny. Satan would have been very happy to see our Lord killed as a baby in Bethlehem, and perhaps equally happy to see Him killed before the end of His ministry. But do you think that the devil is so stupid that He didn't hear the Lord Jesus prophesy His death 'as a ransom for many' (Mark 10:45) and His resurrection at least three times?

Of course, Jesus went to his death willingly, and of course, God ordained it would happen. But many texts tell us that Jesus' death was at the hands of the devil. It is very common for torturers of the righteous to tempt them to renounce their values and loyalties before killing them. I think ultimately the devil wanted Jesus to give up on his mission before killing him.

I shall be interested to see your 'many texts' listed, and also any text that tells us that Satan intended to kill Christ after making Him give up His mission. Perhaps he would have done, but it is pure speculation.

 

[Arthur King]

The devil was a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44) when he brought about the deaths of Adam and Eve and all their progeny. Satan would have been very happy to see our Lord killed as a baby in Bethlehem, and perhaps equally happy to see Him killed before the end of His ministry. But do you think that the devil is so stupid that He didn't hear the Lord Jesus prophesy His death 'as a ransom for many' (Mark 10:45) and His resurrection at least three times?

I shall be interested to see your 'many texts' listed, and also any text that tells us that Satan intended to kill Christ after making Him give up His mission. Perhaps he would have done, but it is pure speculation.

This is John 8. Key phrases highlighted in bold.

They answered and said to Him,

“Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them,

“If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

They said to Him,

“We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”

Jesus said to them,

“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

Jesus is explicit here that their "seeking to kill him" is the "deeds of their father" who is the devil. Is Jesus wrong that the devil seeks to kill him? It sounds like you are saying that you are smarter than Jesus about the devil's intentions.

He repeats again that they "want to do the desires of their father" the devil. What is his desire? Jesus makes it plain "He was a murderer from the beginning."

Whatever our questions about the devil's stupidity or his rationale, they are downstream from the Scriptural data - we know that the devil sought to kill Jesus (John 8), and that he struck Jesus a fatal wound (Gen 3). We know that the devil had the power of death until the death of Jesus rendered him powerless with regard to it (Heb 2). God in His sovereignty limits knowledge and blinds His enemies to information in order to carry out His purposes. So I think the devil's knowledge most certainly could be incomplete.He does not hear (or understand) the words of God, because he is not of God.

I could list more texts, but this is more than sufficient for now. I don't feel you have dealt with the explicit nature of even the texts given thus far.

 

[kyredneck]

So you actually have no text that states that Satan crushed the Lord Jesus.

You're supposed to be bright enough to see it, instead you stubbornly choose to keep disputing the scripture:

14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst,
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true.
22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come?
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3