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Jesus Marvelled At Unblief! Why?
- Thread starter Rockson
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Are you saying salvation is possible apart from Christ's death on the cross?
Of course not. You said that God looks into the future to affirm someone's faith and you're doing everything possible to dance away from your statement. Including this ludicrous charge that I embrace salvation apart from the cross.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I did not say that. God determines the future. This includes Christ's immutable death for the sins of the elect. it was as good as done the moment God decreed it.
You said,
Whenever Jesus saw faith, he knew their sins were paid for in the atonement soon to take place.
If that's not the definition of looking into the future, I don't know what is...
Rockson
Active Member
Sure they were walking in hardness of heart. Most definitely they were resisting him. The fact was though they had no right to claim their right to hold off was justified for they could have responded to him and been receptive to his ministry. He was shocked that they didn't yield which shows they had the capacity to do so. The scripture goes on to say he there could do no mighty miracles except heal a few sick folk insinuating he wanted to do more and was grieved he could not. Again if total and absolute and depravity were true he would not be astonished. It would have just been accepted that they acted in the way that they did.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you believe God's decrees are perfect and cannot change to imperfection, then Christ's death on the cross was inevitable.
“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:” (Acts 2:23)
No you were saying the issue was Christ's surprise.
No, He marveled, because He was human. It doesn't mean shocked. You will marvel at the fall of Babylon, but you will not be surprised.
No it doesn't, just as standing in awe of the righteousness of Christ doesn't mean He has the capacity to lie.
True, but that doesn't mean He didn't have the power to heal them. He was constrained by the will of the Father and the response to unbelief in contrast to the response to faith.
Untrue, as I've pointed out.
He did accept it. Acceptance of something doesn't mean one is indifferent or aloof. Did not Christ weep at the tomb of Lazarus?
Dr. James White nailed it when he stated the default position of Arminianism is open theism.
Rockson
Active Member
And why should you think that?
Uhm, because it is. Just reread your posts. Jesus was shocked, surprised to find out that ppl lacked faith. Jesus is God, so to you, God was surprised. That's open theism.
Rockson
Active Member
That's open theism? No I'm not an open theist and have debated them but do let me ask you this seeing you charge me as being one....how do you explain Mk 9:21 & Jn 11:34?
Mark 9:21 has to do when the Father of a demon possessed boy brought him to Jesus to be delivered and Jesus asked him, "How long has he been like this?" How is it that Jesus being God wouldn't have known? And in John 11:34 we read,where Jesus asked them at Lazarus house..."Where have you laid him?" Jesus being God...why didn't he know?
That's open theism? No I'm not an open theist and have debated them but do let me ask you this seeing you charge me as being one....how do you explain Mk 9:21 & Jn 11:34?
Mark 9:21 has to do when the Father of a demon possessed boy brought him to Jesus to be delivered and Jesus asked him, "How long has he been like this?" How is it that Jesus being God wouldn't have known? And in John 11:34 we read,where Jesus asked them at Lazarus house..."Where have you laid him?" Jesus being God...why didn't he know?
You honestly think the Christ didn't know the answer? He is God, who knows all. He is God clothed in flesh. You are teetering upon open theism.
We need to keep in mind that in the Incarnation, Christ was made subject to weakness. He got tired, and would have to sleep. He got hungry, and would have to eat. His Deity means that He was incorruptible, and that He had authority. It was impossible for Him to lie, or to believe a lie, and the demons were subject unto Him. Even in His weakness, He was worthy of worship, and received the worship of men.
Even so, He wasn't born knowing how to speak. We're told that He grew in wisdom, and that He learned obedience—not that He was ever disobedient. In His humiliation, He was not omniscient. In the power of the Holy Spirit, that came upon Him at His baptism, He performed His ministry, and His miracles. There are times when He demonstrated knowledge that was unquestionably supernatural, John 1:47 ff, but many more times, He needed to ask for information that He didn't have, Mark 5:31.
We should avoid extremes when discussing Christ's Incarnation. It's a temptation to hallow our own fallen natures as human nature, and imagine that in Christ's weakness had the same thoughts and feelings. Many don't see themselves as corrupt, and therefore imagine a corrupt Christ. How many times have you heard, lust isn't the sin, it's how I respond to it.
The other extreme is in thinking that Christ, because of His deity, had no weakness, and the Incarnation is then robbed of its meaning and significance.
He is the Truth, and He understood the depths of depravity of the human heart, and therefore "committed Himself to no man." To wonder at those depths when they're exemplified is not evidence of free will or (worse) soul compentency, and neither is His ignorance of who touched Him evidence of open Theism.
Open Theism denies the Father's, and the glorified Christ's omniscience.
Even so, He wasn't born knowing how to speak. We're told that He grew in wisdom, and that He learned obedience—not that He was ever disobedient. In His humiliation, He was not omniscient. In the power of the Holy Spirit, that came upon Him at His baptism, He performed His ministry, and His miracles. There are times when He demonstrated knowledge that was unquestionably supernatural, John 1:47 ff, but many more times, He needed to ask for information that He didn't have, Mark 5:31.
We should avoid extremes when discussing Christ's Incarnation. It's a temptation to hallow our own fallen natures as human nature, and imagine that in Christ's weakness had the same thoughts and feelings. Many don't see themselves as corrupt, and therefore imagine a corrupt Christ. How many times have you heard, lust isn't the sin, it's how I respond to it.
The other extreme is in thinking that Christ, because of His deity, had no weakness, and the Incarnation is then robbed of its meaning and significance.
He is the Truth, and He understood the depths of depravity of the human heart, and therefore "committed Himself to no man." To wonder at those depths when they're exemplified is not evidence of free will or (worse) soul compentency, and neither is His ignorance of who touched Him evidence of open Theism.
Open Theism denies the Father's, and the glorified Christ's omniscience.
Rockson
Active Member
What? You actually believe Jesus asked of Mary, "Where have you laid him" when he knew all the time? Is that what you "honestly" believe?
Rockson
Active Member
Please refrain SG from telling me what I'm teetering on. I told you I've debated open theists and I find their claims not credible and I never will.
He knew Lazarus’ status two days travel away. He knew he was already dead two days away.
Rockson
Active Member
Still doesn't answer the question why he had to ask, "Where have you laid him" You're not believing even in the slightest that God gave up his attributes in any way form or fashion while upon the Earth. I'd kindly suggest you need to study up on what the Incarnation actually meant.
He did not cease to be God. He is Immanuel/Emmanuel, which means ‘God with us’. You are saying God, and Jesus is God, did not know some things. That’s open theism.
You are the one who needs further study. Are you’re doing is deifying Him, not I.
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