Jesus Marvelled At Unblief! Why?

[Rockson]

Calvinists claim that God needs to apply irresistible grace and regenerate them to get people to BELIEVE This is because of their teaching of total and absolute depravity as being the state of man. I think most Christians, Calvinistic, Armenian or whatever have no problem believing man has a fallen nature. to what degree one is depraved is a question much pondered. If Biblical depravity truly meant man doesn't even have the ability to receive God's grace AND BELIEVE without regeneratoin......Then why therefore do we see the following scripture in Mark 6: 6

And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. Mark 6:6

Other translations instead of using the word marveled use also in it's place amazed, wondered, surprised, and astonished! Why so? If anyone knew about the nature of man...wouldn't Jesus have? Didn't he know that mankind had to be regenerated to even come up to the place of ....BELIEVING? So why was he surprised? Why was he astonished? Why wasn't it just automatic with him and where he'd tell his disciples,"Relax boys! They're in unbelief because God hasn't done a work in them! I'm not shocked I'm not surprised!" And yet the scripture says..... HE WAS!

Or maybe the real truth was this.....that Jesus had done many signs and wonders around Capernuim and Nazareth having heard about it ....should have believed? And that there was no excuse they didn't when they should have? Jesus didn't say anything about giving them some special regeneration necessary to bring them up to the place of believing! He expected the things which he did were sufficient to establish belief. That would have been the perfect time to teach a Calvinists lesson on total depravity and say, "See there!" Once again he was totally at odds with the fact that they were not believing. In his way of thinking...they should have.

 

[Rob_BW]

How does the "he could there do no mighty work" tie in to the passage?

 

[JonC]

I don't understand why He wouldn't marvel at their unbelief. They should have believed even without knowing of miracles.

When I look back at my life before I was saved - and even at times when I've stumbled and faltered in my walk - I marvel at my unbelief. Even now I marvel at the extent of unbelief that resides in my heart and those times I place my confidence in my own hands. But I am less than the model Christian, so take my wonder with a grain of salt.

 

[HankD]

Hey, even Jesus is surprised at us every once and a while!

 

[Dave G]

Because the Truth was right in front of them, and they were His chosen, earthly nation of Israel, who claimed to know Him and yet did not.

Also, God causes belief...i.e, gives it to His children, Christ's sheep:
" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 )

Two things it is given to the believer by God in the behalf of Christ to do in this passage...believe, and to suffer for His sake. Contrast this with this passage:

" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." ( Matthew 13:10 )

God gives people things, and He withholds them from others...


Pay careful attention to what He says here:
" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:25-26 )

Again, Christ's sheep believe...because they are His sheep and it has been given to them to believe...not because they "can" of their own free will, which really isn't "free", because it is biased against God and His ways already ( John 3:19-20 ).




God gives things to people He wants to give them to, and to others He blinds or allows them to be blinded. He reveals Himself to whomsoever He wants, and hides His face from others:

" He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." ( John 14:21 )

" All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]." ( Matthew 11:27 )

My point?
People don't innately have the ability to believe on Christ, or even the desire... it must be given to them, like everything else:

" John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." ( John 3:27 )

Also, see 1 Corinthians 4:7.


Back to marveling at unbelief...
Jesus marvelled at the unbelief of the Jews because of the truth they had been given and was standing right in front of them...which is why He makes this statement:.

" But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed [them].
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching." ( Mark 6:4-6 )


People don't believe prophets that come from their towns and that grow up with them...they believe prophets from far-off places:

" And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." ( Mark 6:1-3 )



Why did He marvel?

Because Jesus is both man and God, and he wept as a man over Lazarus, and marveled as a man over the people of Nazareth's unbelief. He lamented over Jerusalem as a man and for the sake of the fathers as God.



That's the way I understand it.




His blessings to you, sir.

 

[TCassidy]

to what degree one is depraved is a question much pondered

That statement proves you don't understand what "total depravity" means.

It does not mean that all people are as bad as they could possibly be.

It means that all three parts of man, body, soul, and spirit, have been affected by the fall, and no part of man has escaped the consequences of the fall, and thus the total man is depraved and no part of him is good enough to merit heaven on his own.

 

[InTheLight]

Along the same lines, if faith is a gift from God why did Jesus marvel at the faith of the Centurion? Why did he say he "found faith" in the Centurion if God gifts us with it? Why would Jesus marvel that someone had faith if He is the one that gave that faith to the person? Matthew 8: 5-13.

 

[Rockson]

Because the Truth was right in front of them, and they were His chosen, earthly nation of Israel, who claimed to know Him and yet did not.

Yes Dave but still falls far short of answering why he was surprised and marveled at their unbelief. There would be no surprise of that whatsoever if he had a Calvinists view that they couldn't believe anyway unless God put it in them.

Also, God causes belief...i.e, gives it to His children, Christ's sheep:
" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 )

Have my own thoughts on this but not sure what this has to do with the subject brought up. Maybe you can clarify? Thanks

 

[Rockson]

Pay careful attention to what He says here:

That I'll seek to do Friend Dave

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:25-26 )

Again really doesn't answer why he marveled and was surprised and astonished at what Mark 6 says about their unbelief for Jesus would have just said....Oh this isn't a surprise at all! He'd just say they don't believe because they are not his sheep .Now Dave if I might give you the same encouragement you gave me....to pay careful attention to what I'll show you Jesus said in the whole passage in John about the sheep.

Why did he tell them to begin with in John 10:26 they don't believe because they are not his sheep. To wake them up! To set off an alarm bell to make them aware all is not well. It was stark what Jesus said to them but he had to do that to let them see how the lines of distinction were drawn. For what purpose? With the attempt to still draw them to himself. Please consider not just John 10:25 which you quoted but just a few verses later....in verses 37,38 were he said to them one more time, "

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" See what he's doing? He's still even at this point exhorting them to believe. He didn't tell them they weren't his sheep without any hope of becoming one as I think you would have us believe. And seeing Jesus wanted them to believe if irresistible grace were true why wouldn't he have applied it right there and then? He told them directly he wanted them to do something...and that was to believe, and that therefore had to be something they could do...But....they chose not to.

 

[Rockson]

" All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]." ( Matthew 11:27 )

Well Dave it seems you've just done a reversal of Calvinistic thinking. Perhaps you didn't catch it? You just quoted Jesus that if one would keep God's commandments that's a sign that one loves God. But the keeping of the commandments comes BEFORE God manifests himself to them. That's our Lord's words for sure. The condition of having God manifesting is to choose to love him which comes first. Don't Calvinists have it in reverse? The manifesting comes first then the keeping of the commandments or the desire to do so second.

People don't believe prophets that come from their towns and that grow up with them...they believe prophets from far-off places:

True but if Calvinism were right Jesus would still have control over the belief or non-belief of people. So why was he surprised, astonished and marveled that their mindset would be this way. He would have known it was merely because they were absolutely and totally depraved. Or maybe Jesus didn't quite think that way that is according to how Calvinists look upon depravity? Maybe he knew for a fact that there was no reason or excuse for their unbelief?

Why did He marvel?

Because Jesus is both man and God, and he wept as a man over Lazarus, and marveled as a man over the people of Nazareth's unbelief. He lamented over Jerusalem as a man and for the sake of the fathers as God.

We can talk about Jesus's weeping and grief another time and I'd never make light of our Lord's emotions and passions....but this goes beyond and past that. It says that Jesus marveled and was amazed and surprised that they were in unbelief. This strikes right at the heart of Calvinistic understanding of total depravity. Jesus would never have been surprised at unbelief....Never.

 

[Dave G]

This strikes right at the heart of Calvinistic understanding of total depravity. Jesus would never have been surprised at unbelief....Never.

Not in the least.

Scripture says it, and I believe it. If it says He marveled, then He marveled; Which it does. Us trying to understand why He marveled is irrelevant, at the end of the day.

That seems to be the difference between you and I...if God says that Judas went and hanged himself, then I believe it. If Scripture says that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out, then I believe it. Because it says both, I believe both. I don't base my understanding on what I suppose He would do, I base it on what is written. I take it by faith, and I then ask the Lord to show me the understanding of the passages that seem to contradict, and He does....but not usually right away.

I've found by personal experience that with God, if we truly seek Him, then He rewards that seeking with greater knowledge:

" Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." ( Matthew 7:7-8 )

" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." ( Matthew 13:10-12 )



If you are a believer, then it has been given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven...ask, and He will give you the understanding of His word; But be prepared to spend long hours in it.

God didn't get me here overnight, Rockson, He took His time and made me do my homework. "Theology", the understanding of God's word, cannot be taught by men, even though they try to with things like "bible colleges" and "seminaries"...but sound doctrine can, and that seems to be what you are not enduring. Why? I have no idea except to speculate that perhaps you want fast answers about things that the Bible says...answers that I think you should be getting straight from Him, instead of asking me where I got mine, with all due respect. No, I don't want to offend you, but the crux of the matter is, you don't see what I see when you read the Bible...but I once believed as you appear to, and now I believe differently after many years of study. I can't explain it except to say that God is as good as His word.

To me, the best way to get answers about someone's understanding of Scripture, is to "desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby". After that, come back and compare what you've gained to what you once believed and I think you will see the progress He makes when we truly seek to know Him and His words. We as believers can't "graduate" until we do the coursework. So, keep reading, it only gets better from here.

It's not "gnostic"...it takes time and effort that will be rewarded because He promises to.


May His grace be shown to you in abundance.

 

[Rockson]

Not in the least.

Scripture says it, and I believe it. If it says He marveled, then He marveled; Which it does. Us trying to understand why He marveled is irrelevant, at the end of the day.

I'd say it's very relevant. Why shouldn't it be? For Jesus to marvel or to be surprised at their unbelief I'd contend is a crystal clear indication that everybody who was in unbelief could have made a decision not to be. And that's what dear Calvinists deny.

That seems to be the difference between you and I...if God says that Judas went and hanged himself, then I believe it. If Scripture says that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out, then I believe it. Because it says both, I believe both.

Well Dave correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be of the opinion that these two things contradict each other but you make a declaration that you embrace contradiction. I hardly think God wants us to do that with our minds. There's nothing contradictory about the two things that happened to Judas but you can read the answer to that within apologetics.

I don't base my understanding on what I suppose He would do, I base it on what is written. I take it by faith, and I then ask the Lord to show me the understanding of the passages that seem to contradict, and He does....but not usually right away.

OK yes it takes time. Been there myself. You might want to ask the Lord the meaning of the Mark 6:6 verse then. And truly I wouldn't marginalize it as unimportant as you might be tempted to do because if regeneration isn't needed in order to believe then that can open up a whole new door of truly understanding the character of God. I'd have to say that's no small thing.

God didn't get me here overnight, Rockson, He took His time and made me do my homework.

So Dave you make a decision to consider me a newbie and one who has never studied? Or one who just doesn't hear God like you as seen reflected in your next statements

"Theology", the understanding of God's word, cannot be taught by men, even though they try to with things like "bible colleges" and "seminaries"...but sound doctrine can, and that seems to be what you are not enduring. Why?

Well maybe Dave this is really the WHY question you should be asking. Why should you give me a loaded question to answer as if to say you've established I'm not enduring sound doctrine. You put down WHY is that the case? Most unkind for you to seek to marginalize me in your thinking. I'll forgive you for I still think of you as a nice fella but I'd say you do need to apologize.

I have no idea except to speculate that perhaps you want fast answers about things that the Bible says...answers that I think you should be getting straight from Him, instead of asking me where I got mine, with all due respect.

Then why are you here on these message boards? People are talking and conversing back and forth and knowing how one got their beliefs helps to understand where everyone is coming from...merely part of communication.

No, I don't want to offend you, but the crux of the matter is, you don't see what I see when you read the Bible...but I once believed as you appear to, and now I believe differently after many years of study.

And Dave can you appreciate that others here have done many years of study as well. You said in a statement above that God did not get you to where you are overnight? Well I can say the same to you about myself. I don't like discussing things of age but you're the one who has put the emphases of your many years of study. Well I'm 60 years of age. I'm not a rookie nor am I a newbie. I became a Christian in 1976. I can assure you my friend I've done many years of study too. No offense but you should never presume people haven't.

To me, the best way to get answers about someone's understanding of Scripture, is to "desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby". After that, come back and compare what you've gained to what you once believed and I think you will see the progress He makes when we truly seek to know Him and His words.

You know Dave LOL I'll forgive you but that's one of the nicest condescending statements anyone has ever said to me. Usually they're just down right mean. I'll save you some of that milk too Dave. Who knows? Perhaps you'll be shocked to discover you need to progress too?

We as believers can't "graduate" until we do the coursework. So, keep reading, it only gets better from here.

Ha...Do you think it's possible that I might have graduated before you?

 

[InTheLight]

Not in the least.

Scripture says it, and I believe it. If it says He marveled, then He marveled; Which it does. Us trying to understand why He marveled is irrelevant, at the end of the day.

Classic Calvinist answer to something their theology can't explain--"it's a mystery. Don't try to understand it.'

God didn't get me here overnight, Rockson, He took His time and made me do my homework. "Theology", the understanding of God's word, cannot be taught by men, even though they try to with things like "bible colleges" and "seminaries"...but sound doctrine can, and that seems to be what you are not enduring. Why? I have no idea except to speculate that perhaps you want fast answers about things that the Bible says...answers that I think you should be getting straight from Him, instead of asking me where I got mine, with all due respect. No, I don't want to offend you, but the crux of the matter is, you don't see what I see when you read the Bible...but I once believed as you appear to, and now I believe differently after many years of study. I can't explain it except to say that God is as good as His word.

Yes, you have said you have 99% of the mind of God. You're so spirirtually superior to the rest of us you don't even need to go to church anymore.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Classic Calvinist answer to something their theology can't explain--"it's a mystery. Don't try to understand it.'



Yes, you have said you have 99% of the mind of God. You're so spirirtually superior to the rest of us you don't even need to go to church anymore.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

ITL If only after years of you also are monastically squirelled away with your Bible like he has been, and like him (without the aid of commentaries of course); you too could be the genius that he is.
Guess he believes Spurgeon was in error with this one:
“It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”

 

[Dave G]

So Dave you make a decision to consider me a newbie and one who has never studied? Or one who just doesn't hear God like you as seen reflected in your next statements

I think you may be reading too much into my comment.
To me, you appear to see a personal attack where I did not intend one.
I'm trying to be objective, not knowing how long you've been a believer...I was called by the word of God in 1978, so 40 years ago. In my experience, the way I've described it above is precisely what happened for me.

ou know Dave LOL I'll forgive you but that's one of the nicest condescending statements anyone has ever said to me. Usually they're just down right mean. I'll save you some of that milk too Dave. Who knows? Perhaps you'll be shocked to discover you need to progress too?

No condescension intended.
I think that perhaps you view all "Calvinists" as condescending, when in fact, there are some that are and some that aren't. I've seen people who take great exception to what Scripture states about election, and their very first accusation is that it is "gnostic" ( can't be known except to the "initiated" ) and originated from Augustine.

I have no wish to view you as "beneath me", only that there may be the possibility that God just hasn't shown you what He has shown me...yet.

God does everything for His glory, and in His timing.

Ha...Do you think it's possible that I might have graduated before you?

No, not really...but I haven't graduated yet, either. My understanding of Scripture with respect to salvation has progressed from "5 point Arminianism" to "4 point Arminianism / Traditionalism" to "4 point Cavinism" and finally to "5 point Calvinism" over the course of 40 years. As a consequence, I tend to believe that is the natural order of progression to seeing the truths of Scripture. In other words, from once believing that salvation was a cooperative effort between man and God, to being convinced that it is His work, start to finish, with my "efforts" having nothing to do with it.

I hope you will forgive me, but to me, you're not seeing the same things I do because God hasn't shown you yet, and part of that "showing" is for us as believers to read His word, over and over and over again, and let Him do what He does best...to teach us ( 1 John 2:27 ).

If that seems harsh, it's not meant to be.
But one thing is becoming very apparent to me...no matter what I say or how I say it, because of what you see in Scripture and your belief about how God works in the matter of salvation, you are probably going to see me as "the enemy", no matter what. I can't "win" regardless of how I present the subject or how many Scriptures I bring to the table. So, I choose not to "win", I choose to declare what I see as the truth, and if it edifies, it edifies.

I'm not here to insult you, sir, but I'm also not going to back down from what I clearly understand and why I understand it. To me, there is no compromise...God does it all, and He deserves to be feared, respected, and glorified.

And Dave can you appreciate that others here have done many years of study as well. You said in a statement above that God did not get you to where you are overnight? Well I can say the same to you about myself. I don't like discussing things of age but you're the one who has put the emphases of your many years of study. Well I'm 60 years of age. I'm not a rookie nor am I a newbie. I became a Christian in 1976. I can assure you my friend I've done many years of study too. No offense but you should never presume people haven't.

OK, point taken...but to me, there IS a problem.

From what you're telling me, in all your years of study, it seems to me that when you read Scripture, you see something similar to "man cooperates with God" in gaining the gift of eternal life, while I clearly see God operating, with nothing He does as being influenced in any way, shape or form from His creation ( Daniel 4:35 ), and that is why I am saved...because He chose me and caused me to approach Him ( Psalm 65:4 ). That is what is written.

The details of election, predestination, calling, justification and several other subjects seem to elude your mind, when I can say that I understand them quite well...and I don't ascribe ANY of it to my own strength, either. HE did it, not me.

But, instead of viewing my comments as objective and understanding them from a point of honesty, you somehow think that I've gotten a big head about what the Lord has graciously shown me...and all I did was to be created by Him and given anything good out of His hand.

Everything good that I have is because of God's grace, not my own efforts.



With respect, sir, perhaps you should be asking yourself why someone who is only two years younger than you "in the Lord", is seeing things so markedly different than you do...and all he did was to read God's word and to abandon the writings and teachings of men.

I do not own books on theology, because I do not trust myself not to be influenced by them.
What I understand from Scripture is what I post here and what I believe that God alone gave me...subject to change, of course. I am willing to take correction, but only from God's word.




May His blessings be evident to you in your walk with Him.

 

[Dave G]

Classic Calvinist answer to something their theology can't explain--"it's a mystery. Don't try to understand it.'

I would never say that.
I would say, that if I can be shown from God's word the understanding of election, then anyone can.

I've already stated that a believer must approach God's word with the full intention of accepting whatever is said. I will add that if that attitude is not present, then there really is no point in going any further. What I'm asking you to do, is to dump human reasoning...it cannot be trusted. Divorce yourself from it, it only gets in the way.

Believe the words by faith, believe what is written, because it is written by God, and we can trust Him because He's not a man that lies.

Yes, you have said you have 99% of the mind of God. You're so spiritually superior to the rest of us you don't even need to go to church anymore.

Look at my post again, carefully.
I stated that I have, and I will add that, all believers, have the mind of Christ, and I quoted 1 Corinthians 2:16...I'm taking it literally. You don't take things literally from Scripture? I do.
I also stated that I thought that I understood Scripture about 99%...which IS to say I don't understand all of it.

So out of 31,102 verses in the AV, I have confessed to not understanding roughly 3,102 of them. Is that such a stretch? I felt that I was being honest, but perhaps I need to re-evaluate this idea that I somehow cannot know the words of my Saviour and understand them, or even have any confidence that what He alone has shown me is correct...and that those words were inspired and preserved for me and those like me ( Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:11 ).

Those that have believed on Christ alone for the forgiveness of their sins.

So, yes, I admit to having pride in my flesh...but at the same time I'm only trying to be as objective as possible, and for that you seem to be ridiculing me. I have no idea why I come across to you as some sort of "superman", but it's not intended. To me, I'm an abject failure in my walk and pursuit of Him, and all I can do is to sit in a corner and be amazed at what He continues to show me through His grace.

You mean to tell me that you've never run into someone that claims to understand most of God's word for themselves without that understanding being given to them by other men?
That God Himself is the believer's Teacher, and that He bypasses the institutions of men to teach them ( Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 6:45, 16:13, Hebrews 8:11, 1 John 2:20-21, 26-27 )?

That He makes the wisdom of this world foolish ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 3:18-21 )?

That the Pharisees and their entire way of doing things were an affront to God? That the weightier things of God ( like mercy ) were being ignored in favor of sacrifice?

It's in the Bible, and God's people are guaranteed their understanding of His word...all it takes is time and effort in Scripture. I say this to encourage everyone here to trust in Him, and Him alone, not to belittle anyone.

To God be the glory, and not to men.
What do we have, that we have not received from Him?



Now for a question from me:

How many of you here, actually believe that the Bible, that was written TO men, can be understood BY men?

Frankly, I'm starting to marvel at what I see as unbelief.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I would never say that.
I would say, that if I can be shown from God's word the understanding of election, then anyone can.

I've already stated that a believer must approach God's word with the full intention of accepting whatever is said. I will add that if that attitude is not present, then there really is no point in going any further. What I'm asking you to do, is to dump human reasoning...it cannot be trusted. Divorce yourself from it, it only gets in the way.

Believe the words by faith, believe what is written, because it is written by God, and we can trust Him because He's not a man that lies.



Look at my post again, carefully.
I stated that I have, and I will add that, all believers, have the mind of Christ, and I quoted 1 Corinthians 2:16...I'm taking it literally. You don't take things literally from Scripture? I do.
I also stated that I thought that I understood Scripture about 99%...which IS to say I don't understand all of it.

So out of 31,102 verses in the AV, I have confessed to not understanding roughly 3,102 of them. Is that such a stretch? I felt that I was being honest, but perhaps I need to re-evaluate this idea that I somehow cannot know the words of my Saviour and understand them, or even have any confidence that what He alone has shown me is correct...and that those words were inspired and preserved for me and those like me ( Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:11 ).

Those that have believed on Christ alone for the forgiveness of their sins.

So, yes, I admit to having pride in my flesh...but at the same time I'm only trying to be as objective as possible, and for that you seem to be ridiculing me. I have no idea why I come across to you as some sort of "superman", but it's not intended. To me, I'm an abject failure in my walk and pursuit of Him, and all I can do is to sit in a corner and be amazed at what He continues to show me through His grace.

You mean to tell me that you've never run into someone that claims to understand most of God's word for themselves without that understanding being given to them by other men?
That God Himself is the believer's Teacher, and that He bypasses the institutions of men to teach them ( Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 6:45, 16:13, Hebrews 8:11, 1 John 2:20-21, 26-27 )?

That He makes the wisdom of this world foolish ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 3:18-21 )?

That the Pharisees and their entire way of doing things were an affront to God? That the weightier things of God ( like mercy ) were being ignored in favor of sacrifice?

It's in the Bible, and God's people are guaranteed their understanding of His word...all it takes is time and effort in Scripture. I say this to encourage everyone here to trust in Him, and Him alone, not to belittle anyone.

To God be the glory, and not to men.
What do we have, that we have not received from Him?



Now for a question from me:

How many of you here, actually believe that the Bible, that was written TO men, can be understood BY men?

Frankly, I'm starting to marvel at what I see as unbelief.

I do not in any way mean this mockingly or jokingly or condescendingly or harshly, but in all sincerity I have something for you to contemplate, Dave, something which I think might help you understand how others may feel, and why you get some of the reactions you do.

Would you prefer that others talk to you the way you talk to them? Consider, for example,

Dave, when you finally begin to fully listen to the Holy Spirit with all your soul and strength with both your heart and your mind wide open to receive, then you will begin to understand what the Holy Scriptures really say. Once you do this, your differences with those with whom you now disagree will gradually disappear as you find your spiritual eyes opening ever wider to the truth, transforming you so that you no longer conform to a simplistic, worldly way of thinking that mistakes man’s perspective for God’s.

Rather than seeing in mere black and white or shades of grey, you will begin to see in glorious rainbows of living color far grander than you could ever imagine. Then you will no longer accept artificial, manmade TULIPs, but embrace a veritable paradisiacal garden of blooms of spiritual enlightenment planted by the Lord. It is all yours in Christ, Dave, just waiting for you. All you need do is submit to the lead of the Holy Spirit. I encourage you to humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and fear not, but take hold his hand--taste and see that the Lord is good.​

 

[Dave G]

Thank you to all for your replies, this forum has been a real eye-opener for me.

It seems that when a person asks 10 Baptists what they believe about the Bible, they invariably will get 10 different answers.
Ask 100 professing Christians what they believe, and you will probably get 100 different answers ( if they don't reference some popular teacher out there in the process ).

Was the first century any different?
Good question, in my opinion. From my reading, the Lord had Paul writing many letters to the churches addressing this and other matters...and from my observations, they were a real mess and needed all the help He could give them.


"Sound doctrine"?
Apparently that is a matter of relevancy, and cannot be agreed upon short of eternity.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 and they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." ( 2 Timothy 4:3-4 )

What is this mysterious thing called, "sound doctrine"?...what is the truth?
That, my friends, seems a matter of opinion as well.



Incidentally, the question hasn't been answered yet, so I will not expect it to be.

Perhaps I should start a thread entitled, " Can a person really pick up and read God's word for themselves without basing their understanding upon another man's? ", just to see what replies I may get.

But, I think I will forego the opportunity...I already have a feeling about the answers.





This is my final post in this thread.

I wish all of you God's blessings upon your lives, and may He comfort you in all your trials and tribulations.



Dave.

 

[Deadworm]

Perhaps I should start a thread entitled, " Can a person really pick up and read God's word for themselves without basing their understanding upon another man's? ", just to see what replies I may get.

I'm a retired college theology professor and UMC minister. Your suggestion gets at the heart of my teaching pedagogy. As an academic Bible specialist, I'm very confident in my biblical insights, But I share Jesus' pedagogical philosophy that spirituality is better caught than taught. That's the reason why Jesus never explained His parables to "outsiders." The curse of modern churchianity is 2nd-hand spirituality mediated by a pastor or some other religious authority figure. My main goal as a Bible professor was to provide students the academic tools to "catch" true biblical insights by direct encounters with the text, relevant parallel texts, and Jewish background texts. I wanted to prevent my academic authority from biasing their quest for insights. So I would ask leading questions they had not anticipated to pose to the implications of each text. Almost invariably they arrived at the correct insights on their own, but because they had Aha! moments rather than an overbearing professor telling them what to think, their critical perceptions were enhanced and their confidence in acquiring correct insights on other texts grew and became permanent parts of their memory after exams were over and there was no longer any need to impress me. For practical reasons, I couldn't always avoid just lecturing on texts, but the aforementioned pedagogy was my preferred method of accessing biblical truth.

 

[Rockson]

I think you may be reading too much into my comment.
To me, you appear to see a personal attack where I did not intend one.
I'm trying to be objective, not knowing how long you've been a believer...I was called by the word of God in 1978, so 40 years ago. In my experience, the way I've described it above is precisely what happened for me
.

I'll take your word for that you didn't mean anything as an attack. Very seldom to I ever attribute to a person that's what they do anyway. Even if they come across as somewhat aggressive I still seek to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they're merely challenging my position on whatever. Nothing wrong with that.

I think that perhaps you view all "Calvinists" as condescending, when in fact, there are some that are and some that aren't.

Sure! And the same goes for those who hold to Non-Calvinistic views.

I have no wish to view you as "beneath me", only that there may be the possibility that God just hasn't shown you what He has shown me...yet.

I've no problem with people claiming they believe God has taught them something. I say the same thing from time to time however we must allow the door to be open to the possibility that we might have been wrong. Sincere but mistaken that what we thought was God sharing was in fact not. Not willing to do so one locks themselves into a cage with no escape.

I hope you will forgive me, but to me, you're not seeing the same things I do because God hasn't shown you yet, and part of that "showing" is for us as believers to read His word, over and over and over again, and let Him do what He does best...to teach us ( 1 John 2:27 ).

Well as I said above is there anything in you which allows for the possibility that you might be wrong? If not as I've said you're locked in with no way of escape when indeed you may need one. We can all may a mistake in claiming God told us something.

But one thing is becoming very apparent to me...no matter what I say or how I say it, because of what you see in Scripture and your belief about how God works in the matter of salvation, you are probably going to see me as "the enemy", no matter what.

As "the enemy"?? I'd suggest that's an extreme way of putting things and suggests people who challenge your views have no balance or perspective in how they should view those of a different thought.

The details of election, predestination, calling, justification and several other subjects seem to elude your mind, when I can say that I understand them quite well...and I don't ascribe ANY of it to my own strength, either. HE did it, not me.

And David this just demonstrates what you do. You play what you consider to have been personal revelation from God as a trump card and won't back down from it. It smacks with I'm right and you're wrong and you poor ignorant people have yet to be enlightened if every you will be. Such is the way of the cults...."God has spoken to our great leader ! If he said God spoke to him then he must be right! Go ahead and drink the Kool-Aid!" No I think I'll pass. No offense but claims of personal revelation must pass the test of scripture.

But, instead of viewing my comments as objective and understanding them from a point of honesty, you somehow think that I've gotten a big head about what the Lord has graciously shown me...and all I did was to be created by Him and given anything good out of His hand.

Well let me put it this way. I've no problem someone considering God has graciously shown them something. If they're not open to even the slightest possibility they may be wrong then yes...such an individual has allowed their head to swell. So what about you David? Are you even open to such a possibility and I"m referring more so not about the scriptures but your claims of revelation from God to you as an individual. As for me even the other day I believe God showed me a few insights on the falsity of Calvinistic thinking. Am I willing to acknowledge that I could be wrong but maybe just myself thinking such? YES....But are you as well? What comes first with you. Personal revelation...or the scriptures.

With respect, sir, perhaps you should be asking yourself why someone who is only two years younger than you "in the Lord", is seeing things so markedly different than you do...and all he did was to read God's word and to abandon the writings and teachings of men.

Well with respect to you Friend David....you by decree are declaring something is a fact that is saying non-Calvinistic teachings are merely opinions of men. I'd encourage you to cast aside those trump cards before coming to the table.

I am willing to take correction, but only from God's word.

Well then very good! If you ever feel so inclined to discuss these subjects again then maybe we can get past first base. Wishing you the best and PEACE.