Jesus Repudiates the Mariolatry Volume III

[mrtumnus]

:smilewinkgrin:

my opinion is different.

Rachel represents the then living mothers weeping for their (her) children and her people while Jacob's trouble represents the time of Israel's national trouble.

Same concept.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

Is it common for you guys to take references to known Biblical people and interpret them as being 'representative' of something other than themselves? Are there other cases where this occurs?

For example, there are those who make a similar claim regarding Adam and Eve -- that they are 'representative' of a first group of people, and the reference to them is not actually to 2 distinct individual people.

 

[annsni]

Is it common for you guys to take references to known Biblical people and interpret them as being 'representative' of something other than themselves? Are there other cases where this occurs?

For example, there are those who make a similar claim regarding Adam and Eve -- that they are 'representative' of a first group of people, and the reference to them is not actually to 2 distinct individual people.

As my pastor says, "When the common sense makes sense, don't seek any other sense". We know that men and women cannot know the future (unless God were to show them or reveal it to them another way), so it cannot be that it is speaking of Rachel. So we need to seek the context that it's written in and the purpose of the writing.

 

[mrtumnus]

As my pastor says, "When the common sense makes sense, don't seek any other sense". We know that men and women cannot know the future (unless God were to show them or reveal it to them another way), so it cannot be that it is speaking of Rachel. So we need to seek the context that it's written in and the purpose of the writing.

I would never conclude from this that Rachel was made privy to the future. I would conclude that she is privy to the present, even though she is physically dead.

The problem I would see with what you've said, is there is much in the Bible that does not make 'sense'. Virgin birth, resurrection from the dead come to mind. However, we choose to believe this in faith anyway. This would seem to me a way to regard or disregard things based upon personal choosing, because they don't "make sense"

 

[annsni]

I would never conclude from this that Rachel was made privy to the future. I would conclude that she is privy to the present, even though she is physically dead.

The problem I would see with what you've said, is there is much in the Bible that does not make 'sense'. Virgin birth, resurrection from the dead come to mind. However, we choose to believe this in faith anyway. This would seem to me a way to regard or disregard things based upon personal choosing, because they don't "make sense"

Oh - those make full sense in the light of God's power, grace and mercy. I don't see a problem with that.

Jeremiah is full of prophecy. Is there any other example of Scripture where someone who has passed is privvy to what's going on in the world?

 

[mrtumnus]

Oh - those make full sense in the light of God's power, grace and mercy. I don't see a problem with that.

Jeremiah is full of prophecy. Is there any other example of Scripture where someone who has passed is privvy to what's going on in the world?

Well, the rich man in hell is certainly privy to know that Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom. He seems to be aware that his family is still living in his father's house, for he asks Abraham to send Lazarus there to warn them.

Abraham doesn't reply that this isn't possible, or is forbidden, or act like they wouldn't be aware of his family on earth. He simply says it wouldn't do any good.

And Paul says that we are 'surrounded' by those great saints that have gone on before us. Seems to me they have to have some awareness of us if they 'surround' us.

 

[Eliyahu]

It's not difficult. I just don't see it as an either/or as you do.

Paul describes in the 12th chapter of Hebrews the difference between the way we as Christians approach God and that of the OT. He references in the OT that God was not approachable, a mountain that could not be touched.

We're then told that as Christians, that we "have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."

Right there in between approaching God as judge, and Jesus as mediator, we see we also come to 'the spirits of righteous men made perfect'. While I do indeed have a personal relationship with Jesus, I do not see it as being conducted 1;1, but rather in the presence of the heavenly Jerusalem. I do not see it as being "me and Jesus" separate from the body of Christ.

I don't pray to a saint, or Mary instead of God. I pray with them to God. We're all there. People seem to think if you include Mary or others in your prayers, you're taking away time from God. I simply see it as joining with other members of the communion of saints in the heavenly Jerusalem where Jesus is the mediator, they are fellow members of the body of Christ, and all our prayers are to God.

1. God was not accessible to the human beings, but now accessible to them thru the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, because Blood and Death of Jesus has become the Korban, the sacrifice-offering. The Hebrew writer is talking about the Korban as Jesus is the True Korban.
Therefore, there is no reason for the true believers not to pray directly to God. God will be pleased to listen to our prayers.

2. Read some verses here.

Matthew 6:
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


John 14:
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Where is the commandment to pray along with Mary ( who was already dead) or any other people who are dead?

 

[mrtumnus]

1. God was not accessible to the human beings, but now accessible to them thru the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, because Blood and Death of Jesus has become the Korban, the sacrifice-offering. The Hebrew writer is talking about the Korban as Jesus is the True Korban.
Therefore, there is no reason for the true believers not to pray directly to God. God will be pleased to listen to our prayers.

2. Read some verses here.

Matthew 6:
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


John 14:
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Where is the commandment to pray along with Mary ( who was already dead) or any other people who are dead?

Where is the "commandment" to pray with others, period?? Yet, we as Christians do this on a regular basis. Jesus said that where 2 or 3 are gathered together in his name, there he is in the midst. And that is certainly evident from Paul's description of the new Jerusalem.

So, who do you believe are the 'spirits of the righteous men made perfect' that Paul says we have come to in the city of the New Jerusalem? Since Paul says this is how we as Christians now approach God, I consider that to be my permission to pray with them.

Do you take the admonition to go to your closet and pray in 'secret' to mean that you should pray only in isolation and never with a group?

I do not see praying with a group in any way to conflict with asking in the name of Jesus. Whether they're living on earth or living in heaven.

 

[annsni]

Well, the rich man in hell is certainly privy to know that Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom. He seems to be aware that his family is still living in his father's house, for he asks Abraham to send Lazarus there to warn them.

Yes - This is 2 dead people - not someone who's on earth. Of course the rich man would send Lazarus to his father's house because that's where they lived! Where else would he send them?

Abraham doesn't reply that this isn't possible, or is forbidden, or act like they wouldn't be aware of his family on earth. He simply says it wouldn't do any good.

Have you ever responded to someone regarding a suggestion "That won't do any good" rather "You can't do that?" That doesn't mean anything.

And Paul says that we are 'surrounded' by those great saints that have gone on before us. Seems to me they have to have some awareness of us if they 'surround' us.

Yes - we had just had the Great Hall of Faith in chapter 11 of Hebrews. Now, knowing all of those witnesses to God's faith have been remembered, we move on in faith. It doesn't mean that they know anything. Does it say that they're cheering us on? That they're praying for us? No. It just doesn't happen because they cannot hear our prayers or the prayers of millions of poeple around the world.

I'm sorry but there's just not one Scriptural example, one Scriptural directive or one Scriptural command for us to pray to anyone but God. There's LOTS about idolatry, false worship and the results of doing such.

 

[Eliyahu]

Where is the "commandment" to pray with others, period?? Yet, we as Christians do this on a regular basis. Jesus said that where 2 or 3 are gathered together in his name, there he is in the midst. And that is certainly evident from Paul's description of the new Jerusalem.

So, who do you believe are the 'spirits of the righteous men made perfect' that Paul says we have come to in the city of the New Jerusalem? Since Paul says this is how we as Christians now approach God, I consider that to be my permission to pray with them.

Do you take the admonition to go to your closet and pray in 'secret' to mean that you should pray only in isolation and never with a group?

I do not see praying with a group in any way to conflict with asking in the name of Jesus. Whether they're living on earth or living in heaven.

You are confused between the dead and the alive. How do you know that the dead people are participating in your prayers? Do you have any special ability to call for the dead spirits? That might be the familiar spirits condemned in the Bible many times.

Read the bible here:

John 16:
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

Now if you pray with the dead Mary to the Father,

How do you pray?

Hey Holy Mother ! come on!
sit down besides me. I am gonna pray to the Father, and therefore assist me or participate in my prayer to the Father !.

Heavenly Father,
thank thee for thy love and grace thru Jesus who shed the precious Blood and died for my sins.
Please help me continuously so that I may have more faith everyday, and help my daily life, Father.
Help my family so that my kids know about you better and better everyday.
I thank thee again for thy Salvation and Grace thru Jesus Christ.

I pray in the name of Jesus Christ.


In the above prayer, where is the need to call for Mary?
If Mary is active and assist God, she will be there and do help you when you pray directly to God the Father. Otherwise she may be resting as Rev 6:11 or Rev 14:13.

Where is such example of praying with Mary in the Bible?

Giving Thanks is an important part of the prayers and they are addressed to the Father as follows:

Colossian 1:3
We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Colossians 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.


Where is the examples of praying with the dead saints?

It is practices of the Familiar Spirits !

 

[Eliyahu]

Mrtumnus,

YOu may be thinking about this word by Jesus:

Mt 18
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.



Ye shall lose on Earth, Two of You agree on earth,

Do they sound like the instruction that we should pray with the dead people?

These are talking about the efficacy of the prayers at the Churches ( Assemblies) because the prayers by multitude of born-again believers at the churches are powerful. The prayers of the churches are much more powerful than the individual prayers.

It is not about the prayers with the dead people.

Could you hear the amen from the dead people?

 

[Eliyahu]

Is this the Prayer with Mary? or Prayer to Mary?


Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin, Help of Christians, we place ourselves under your motherly protection. Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the Comforter of the dying. We promise to be faithful disciples of Jesus Christ, your Son, to proclaim His Good News of God's love for all people, and to work for peace and justice in our world. With faith in your intercession, we pray for the Church, for our family and friends, for the poor and abandoned, and all the dying. Grant, O Mary, Help of Christians, the graces of which we stand in need. (Mention your intentions.) May we serve Jesus with fidelity and love until death. Help us and our loved ones to attain the boundless joy of being forever with our Father in heaven. Amen

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/mpray02.html#4


What is this prayer?

O Virgin Mother,
In the depths of your heart you pondered the Life of the son you brought into the world. Give us your vision of Jesus and ask the Father to open our hearts, that we may always see his presence in our lives, and in the power of the Holy Spirit, bring us into the joy and peace of the kingdom, where Jesus is Lord forever and ever. Amen

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/mpray02.html#2

 

[Eliyahu]

Is this not Idol worship for Mary?

Someone denied it, then what is more needed to be defined as Idol Worship ?

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/crown.htm

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/engseven.html#uru

 

[Eliyahu]

Do you think the statues can really bleed ?


http://www.najumary.or.kr/mary/index.htm

 

[mrtumnus]

You are confused between the dead and the alive. How do you know that the dead people are participating in your prayers? Do you have any special ability to call for the dead spirits? That might be the familiar spirits condemned in the Bible many times.

!

I have no interest in dead spirits. I do have an interest in those who are living in the New Jerusalem with the angels and Jesus.

There is no point in continuing this until you answer the question I asked.

Who are the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" that Paul says we have "come to"?

I won't be able to check back until late tomorrow. I hope to find an answer.

Thanks for your time.

 

[mrtumnus]

Could you hear the amen from the dead people?

I can't hear the "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." prayed by the angels, but I believe it is happening even as we speak.

I would never base the truth as to whether something is occuring on my ability to perceive it.

 

[DHK]

Is it common for you guys to take references to known Biblical people and interpret them as being 'representative' of something other than themselves? Are there other cases where this occurs?

For example, there are those who make a similar claim regarding Adam and Eve -- that they are 'representative' of a first group of people, and the reference to them is not actually to 2 distinct individual people.

If this is the question that you want answered (I am not sure) I will attempt to do so for you.
There are types in the Bible. But they are almost always identified by the Bible itself. For example.
Adam is the first "Adam"; Christ is the second (or last) "Adam". (1Cor.15:45)
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Elijah was a picture of John the Baptist, but also is a picture of one of the two witnesses in Rev.11
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
--This is the prophecy recorded in the OT about 450 years before Christ was born.
--Then Jesus said:
Matthew 17:12-13 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
--This was only a partial fulfillment. For John the Baptist came only in the spirit of Elijah.

Notice that Jesus puts a difference between the two different comings of Elijah:
Matthew 17:11-12 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
--Elijah will come and will restore all things. But Elijah has not done that. That is a future event.
--Then he says that Elijah has come already--in the person of John the Baptist. He came in the spirit of John the Baptist. He foretold the way of the Messiah. John the Baptist was the last of the OT prophets. He was much like the prophet, Elijah.

There are other parallels that the Bible gives. All of them are substantiated in the Bible.
Paul talks of Sara and Hagar as types.
Galatians 4:24-25 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Melchizedek is used as a type of Christ. You can find the NT reference in Hebrews chapter 7.
And thus there are many more, all verified by the NT.

But mark this Mary is never referenced as the mother of God, nor is ever referenced as a type of Eve. She isn't a type of Eve. There is no NT reference to refer to her as such, no Biblical evidence to make that inference. It is pure speculation, and unbiblical speculation at that.
I hope that helps.

 

[Matt Black]

To state that Mary gave birth to the Deity of Jesus implies Jesus had no Deity prior to His earthly birth.

Nope.

To state that Mary gave birth to the Divine Nature of Jesus implies Jesus had no Divine Nature prior to His earthly birth.

Wrong again. But do keep going...

The Word of God declares that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He always had His Deity and His Divine Nature

Now you're correct. But that doesn't preclude a Jewish virgin from giving birth to Him

Go back to your Bible and study.

Oh, I have - otherwise I wouldn't know the doctrine of the Incarnation referred to above.

 

[mrtumnus]

DHK, thank you for your answer to my question. I've printed out your reply for future study. It is one of those that requires looking at each item in context to really understand what you're saying, and I thank you for the time to put it together.

The other question I have asked which has not been answered, is this:

Who are the spirits of righteous men made perfect in the 12th chapter of Hebrews that Paul says we have 'come to'?

 

[Eliyahu]

I have no interest in dead spirits. I do have an interest in those who are living in the New Jerusalem with the angels and Jesus.

There is no point in continuing this until you answer the question I asked.

Who are the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" that Paul says we have "come to"?

I won't be able to check back until late tomorrow. I hope to find an answer.

Thanks for your time.

You may be talking about the following verses, but we never find any clue that the True believers in the Early Churches prayed along with the spirits of the dead believers.

Heb 12:
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


We have joined the Assembly of the Believers, Heavenly Jerusalem, but it doesn't mean that we are praying with the spirits of the dead believers.

Where do you find such clue?

 

[Eliyahu]

I can't hear the "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." prayed by the angels, but I believe it is happening even as we speak.

I would never base the truth as to whether something is occuring on my ability to perceive it.

Yes, the Holy Spirit, the Angels are assisting us in our prayers. However, do you find any dead Believers are praying for you ?

Problem is this. When you said you are praying with the spirits of the dead believers, you need their consent and amen and a certain communication with them. Do you hear them? Without knowing whether the dead are praying with you or not, how can you say that you are praying with the dead? When we pray directly to God, we get the answers from God because He is alive and quick to answer to us.

However, what do you hear from the dead? Have you ever prayed with Paul the Apostle? What did he say to you ? Have you ever prayed to Mary? What did she say to you ?