He did not teach that you are saved by faith but you are saved by grace. A gift given to those who hear His voice and obey it.
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Jesus & Salvation By Faith ALONE
- Thread starter adisciplinedlearner
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He did not teach that you are saved by faith but you are saved by grace. A gift given to those who hear His voice and obey it.
JOHN 10 [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Who are the sheep that hear His “voice”? Whats this voice saying? Theres really no need to guess. It is written.
DEUT. 27 [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God. [10] Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the Lord thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day.
DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
There always seems to be someone out there that will claim the commandments mentioned are not the ten commandments. Cant do a song and dance around above scripture
ZEPH. 1 [14] The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, [16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
The “voice” will return on the Day of the Lord according to Zeph.1. That’s when Jesus will return to get rid of the bad guys. Will the voice continue to say the same thing?
REV. 14 [2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
YIKES! For sure the “voice” returns. Will anyone be listening to the returning “voice”?
REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Yup. The saints of God will be observing to keep His 10 commandments
DEUT. 4 [30]When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; [31] (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
Who are the sheep that hear His “voice”? Whats this voice saying? Theres really no need to guess. It is written.
DEUT. 27 [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God. [10] Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the Lord thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day.
DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
There always seems to be someone out there that will claim the commandments mentioned are not the ten commandments. Cant do a song and dance around above scripture
ZEPH. 1 [14] The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, [16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
The “voice” will return on the Day of the Lord according to Zeph.1. That’s when Jesus will return to get rid of the bad guys. Will the voice continue to say the same thing?
REV. 14 [2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
YIKES! For sure the “voice” returns. Will anyone be listening to the returning “voice”?
REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Yup. The saints of God will be observing to keep His 10 commandments
DEUT. 4 [30]When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; [31] (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.Dr. Walter
New Member
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. - Rom. 3:27
Roman 3:27 provides only one of two options that a man can be justified without boasting. (1) of works (2) of faith. In regard to these two options the context repeatedly denies justification "of works." Hence, there is no third or fourth option. If the only other option is "of faith" then we must be justified by faith ALONE as there is no other option than "of works" and the very next verse denies that is a viable option before God.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Rom. 3:28
Roman 3:27 provides only one of two options that a man can be justified without boasting. (1) of works (2) of faith. In regard to these two options the context repeatedly denies justification "of works." Hence, there is no third or fourth option. If the only other option is "of faith" then we must be justified by faith ALONE as there is no other option than "of works" and the very next verse denies that is a viable option before God.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Rom. 3:28
Dr. Walter
New Member
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
In defining justification in the sight of God (Rom. 4:1) Paul uses all present tense verbs in Romans 4:4-5 in regard to an abstract "him" but then returns to Aorist tense verbs in Romans 4:6-12 in regard to David and Abraham.
Significantly, all the present tense verbs in verses 4-5 show CONTEMPORARY ACTION with each other. That is, Paul is giving us the relationship of these verbs with each other in the doctrine of justification.
1. "worketh"
2. "reckoned"
3. "worketh"
4. "justifieth"
5. "counteth"
All these verbs are contemporaneous in action and therefore show a relationship with each other within the act of justification. The present tense is an incompleted ongoing action to show us the relationship of these actions THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE EXTENT of justification in the sight of God.
The only action that is NEGATED throughout the entire extent of justification is "worketh" as it is qualified by the negative particle "not." Furthermore the term "worketh" is placed in opposition to the word "believeth" demonstrating that the kind of faith concurrent and inclusive in the doctrine of justification cannot be defined to include works.
Also in verse 4 grace is defined to exclude works because works are inseparable from "debt" which is contrary to grace.
Therefore, the relationship of works through out the entire extent of justification is repudiated.
However, the other terms "justifieth" "imputed" or "imputeth" and "believeth" have no negative particles and therefore are coextensive with each other in the doctrine of justification.
Having once defined what is coextensive and what is not coextensive in the doctrine of justification (vv. 4-5) in regard to an abstract "him" Paul immediately defines the two inseparable aspects of the doctrine of justification in verses 6-8:
1. Imputation of Righteousness - v. 6
2. Non-imputation of sin - vv. 7-8
Thus, justification is the act in the sight of God by which righteousness is imputed and sins are remitted.
Having, thus defined what actions are coextensive with each other in the act of justification and what is not (vv. 4-5) and what aspects make up justification (vv. 6-8) he then returns to his illustration of Abraham and makes application (vv. 9-22).
In his application to Abraham, the things coextensive with each other in the act of justification and the two aspects that make up justification (imputation of righteousness, non-imputation of sin), all of which, are shown to occur at the point of faith BEFORE Abraham submitted to divine ordinances (vv. 9-12) as He believed and it was counted as righteousness 14 years before he was circumcised. Furthermore, that at the point of faith it did not include a life of law keeping (vv. 13-15) because Abraham lived 430 years before Moses. Finally, that justification by faith is by a faith that is not inclusive of faithfulness by Abraham, or faith that is defined as inclusive of personal performance of any kind or personal assistance (vv. 16-22) because the object of Abraham's faith was performed wholly and totally by God when Abraham could offer no personal assistance or include any personal performance at all but justifying faith is restricted to this Pauline definition in regard to Abraham being justified by faith:
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
In conclusion, it is this kind of justificaition (excluding works as an element in justification before God - vv. 4-5; including imputation of righteousness, non-imputation of sin - vv.6-8) that is a completed action BEFORE submission to ordinances at the point of faith in God's initial promise (vv. 9-12) and without lawkeeping (vv. 13-15) and without personal performance or personal assistance justified before God by a faith defined as simply being fully persuaded that God's promise can be performed solely by God's power which is directly applied to the kind of faith in the gospel promise concerning justification by the Person and work of Christ - Romans 4:23-25
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
It is this kind of justification by this kind of faith that justifies those who believe "IN" Christ and it is a completed action at the point of faith as proven by the Aorist tense "justified" in Romans 5:1 and the Perfect tense completed action that describes our standing in grace in Romans 5:2
1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Therefore, we are justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE and this is not a vain repetition of the word "alone" because these words "grace, faith and Christ are placed in contrast to other options in the overall context. By grace instead of the debt of works in Romans 4:4. By faith instead of faithfulness in Romans 4:21. By Christ's person and provision instead of our person and provisions (Rom. 3:24-25; 4:9-15).
Justifying faith is "of grace" (Rom. 4:16). Christ and his work is of grace (Rom. 3:24). Grace is "freely" or without cause in us (Rom. 3:24) but total cause in God and His provisions in Christ (Rom. 3:24-25).
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
In defining justification in the sight of God (Rom. 4:1) Paul uses all present tense verbs in Romans 4:4-5 in regard to an abstract "him" but then returns to Aorist tense verbs in Romans 4:6-12 in regard to David and Abraham.
Significantly, all the present tense verbs in verses 4-5 show CONTEMPORARY ACTION with each other. That is, Paul is giving us the relationship of these verbs with each other in the doctrine of justification.
1. "worketh"
2. "reckoned"
3. "worketh"
4. "justifieth"
5. "counteth"
All these verbs are contemporaneous in action and therefore show a relationship with each other within the act of justification. The present tense is an incompleted ongoing action to show us the relationship of these actions THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE EXTENT of justification in the sight of God.
The only action that is NEGATED throughout the entire extent of justification is "worketh" as it is qualified by the negative particle "not." Furthermore the term "worketh" is placed in opposition to the word "believeth" demonstrating that the kind of faith concurrent and inclusive in the doctrine of justification cannot be defined to include works.
Also in verse 4 grace is defined to exclude works because works are inseparable from "debt" which is contrary to grace.
Therefore, the relationship of works through out the entire extent of justification is repudiated.
However, the other terms "justifieth" "imputed" or "imputeth" and "believeth" have no negative particles and therefore are coextensive with each other in the doctrine of justification.
Having once defined what is coextensive and what is not coextensive in the doctrine of justification (vv. 4-5) in regard to an abstract "him" Paul immediately defines the two inseparable aspects of the doctrine of justification in verses 6-8:
1. Imputation of Righteousness - v. 6
2. Non-imputation of sin - vv. 7-8
Thus, justification is the act in the sight of God by which righteousness is imputed and sins are remitted.
Having, thus defined what actions are coextensive with each other in the act of justification and what is not (vv. 4-5) and what aspects make up justification (vv. 6-8) he then returns to his illustration of Abraham and makes application (vv. 9-22).
In his application to Abraham, the things coextensive with each other in the act of justification and the two aspects that make up justification (imputation of righteousness, non-imputation of sin), all of which, are shown to occur at the point of faith BEFORE Abraham submitted to divine ordinances (vv. 9-12) as He believed and it was counted as righteousness 14 years before he was circumcised. Furthermore, that at the point of faith it did not include a life of law keeping (vv. 13-15) because Abraham lived 430 years before Moses. Finally, that justification by faith is by a faith that is not inclusive of faithfulness by Abraham, or faith that is defined as inclusive of personal performance of any kind or personal assistance (vv. 16-22) because the object of Abraham's faith was performed wholly and totally by God when Abraham could offer no personal assistance or include any personal performance at all but justifying faith is restricted to this Pauline definition in regard to Abraham being justified by faith:
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
In conclusion, it is this kind of justificaition (excluding works as an element in justification before God - vv. 4-5; including imputation of righteousness, non-imputation of sin - vv.6-8) that is a completed action BEFORE submission to ordinances at the point of faith in God's initial promise (vv. 9-12) and without lawkeeping (vv. 13-15) and without personal performance or personal assistance justified before God by a faith defined as simply being fully persuaded that God's promise can be performed solely by God's power which is directly applied to the kind of faith in the gospel promise concerning justification by the Person and work of Christ - Romans 4:23-25
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
It is this kind of justification by this kind of faith that justifies those who believe "IN" Christ and it is a completed action at the point of faith as proven by the Aorist tense "justified" in Romans 5:1 and the Perfect tense completed action that describes our standing in grace in Romans 5:2
1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Therefore, we are justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE and this is not a vain repetition of the word "alone" because these words "grace, faith and Christ are placed in contrast to other options in the overall context. By grace instead of the debt of works in Romans 4:4. By faith instead of faithfulness in Romans 4:21. By Christ's person and provision instead of our person and provisions (Rom. 3:24-25; 4:9-15).
Justifying faith is "of grace" (Rom. 4:16). Christ and his work is of grace (Rom. 3:24). Grace is "freely" or without cause in us (Rom. 3:24) but total cause in God and His provisions in Christ (Rom. 3:24-25).
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Are you saying scripture is fiction?
No, our righteousness in Christ is a legal fiction. We still commit sins but they pass through the "faith" filter and are we are legally declared not guilty thus our righteousness is a legal fiction.
Defendants in court are declared guilty or not guilty, never innocent. Suspects who did the deed are often declared "no guilty" on a legal technicality. "Believing in Jesus" is a legal technicality.
Defendants in court are declared guilty or not guilty, never innocent. Suspects who did the deed are often declared "no guilty" on a legal technicality. "Believing in Jesus" is a legal technicality.
Grace&Truth
New Member
None of us are innocent, we are all guilty of sin, But Jesus paid our (my) sin debt. Therefore those who are tusting in the finished work (the payment Christ made in our (my) place), we (I) stand before God just as if we (I) had never sinned, because we (I) stand in Christ's Righteousness, not our (my) own. This is not a technicality Jesus paid our sin debt, it was at His expense.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Legal fiction or Legal Fact
1. The law's righteousness and penalty were completely, fully and forever fulfilled by only one human being in the history of mankind.
a. Christ actually did obey EVERY POINT of God's Law without sin. No other human being in history past, present or future has fulfilled the law of God as Christ did - personally, completely, perfectly.
b. Christ actually did fulfil all the law's penal demands by his own death and demonstrated it by rising from the grave proving that his death had fully paid the law's penalty for sin. No other human being in history past, present or future has paid the penalty of the law in full and proved it by resurrection.
c. The Bible says repeatedly that He did this "for us" thus denying that we personally and individually fulfil the law in the same sense - personally, completely and perfectly by our own life and death.
2. Christ was "MADE SIN" in the very same sense the elect are "MADE RIGHTEOUS" - 2 Cor. 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
a. He was PERSONALLY sinless but was REPRESENTATIVELY treated and regarded as sin having our sins CHARGED to him.
b. We are PERSONALLY sinful but are REPRESENTATIVELY treated and regarded by God as having his righteousness CHARGED to us.
3. We are made RIGHTEOUS in Christ the very same way we were made sinners in Adam. - Rom. 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
a. By ONE MAN's act (Adam's personal disobedience) made many sinners by imputation to all His posterity - federal union
b. By ONE MAN's obedience (Christ's personal obedience) shall many be made righteous by imputation to his posterity - federal union
4. We are made RIGHTEOUS in Christ as Levi is regarded paying tithes in Abraham through representation Heb. 7:9-10.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
a. Abraham paid tithes to Melchisidek personally and individually
b. It is IMPUTED to Levi, although Levi did not personally and individually pay tithes to Melchisidek.
5. We are made RIGHGTEOUS and obtains remission of sins in Christ just as Paul calls upon Philemon to TREAT and REGARD Onesimus as Paul and charge his sins to Paul's account:
Philemon 17 If thou count me therefore a partner, receive him as myself.
18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;
6. Righteousness by Imputation is an EXTERNAL Legal Righteousness and is therefore likened to PUTTING ON a Robe or being COVERED:
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. - Isa. 61:10
7. Illustrated in Gehazi the servant of Elisha
a. Naaman's leposey transferred to Gehazzi
b. Charged to all his posterity because of his own personal disobedience
The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow. - 2 Kings 5:27
8. If you reject IMPUTED LEGAL righteousness than you must reject LEGAL IMPUTATION of our sins to Christ.
1. The law's righteousness and penalty were completely, fully and forever fulfilled by only one human being in the history of mankind.
a. Christ actually did obey EVERY POINT of God's Law without sin. No other human being in history past, present or future has fulfilled the law of God as Christ did - personally, completely, perfectly.
b. Christ actually did fulfil all the law's penal demands by his own death and demonstrated it by rising from the grave proving that his death had fully paid the law's penalty for sin. No other human being in history past, present or future has paid the penalty of the law in full and proved it by resurrection.
c. The Bible says repeatedly that He did this "for us" thus denying that we personally and individually fulfil the law in the same sense - personally, completely and perfectly by our own life and death.
2. Christ was "MADE SIN" in the very same sense the elect are "MADE RIGHTEOUS" - 2 Cor. 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
a. He was PERSONALLY sinless but was REPRESENTATIVELY treated and regarded as sin having our sins CHARGED to him.
b. We are PERSONALLY sinful but are REPRESENTATIVELY treated and regarded by God as having his righteousness CHARGED to us.
3. We are made RIGHTEOUS in Christ the very same way we were made sinners in Adam. - Rom. 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
a. By ONE MAN's act (Adam's personal disobedience) made many sinners by imputation to all His posterity - federal union
b. By ONE MAN's obedience (Christ's personal obedience) shall many be made righteous by imputation to his posterity - federal union
4. We are made RIGHTEOUS in Christ as Levi is regarded paying tithes in Abraham through representation Heb. 7:9-10.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
a. Abraham paid tithes to Melchisidek personally and individually
b. It is IMPUTED to Levi, although Levi did not personally and individually pay tithes to Melchisidek.
5. We are made RIGHGTEOUS and obtains remission of sins in Christ just as Paul calls upon Philemon to TREAT and REGARD Onesimus as Paul and charge his sins to Paul's account:
Philemon 17 If thou count me therefore a partner, receive him as myself.
18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;
6. Righteousness by Imputation is an EXTERNAL Legal Righteousness and is therefore likened to PUTTING ON a Robe or being COVERED:
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. - Isa. 61:10
7. Illustrated in Gehazi the servant of Elisha
a. Naaman's leposey transferred to Gehazzi
b. Charged to all his posterity because of his own personal disobedience
The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow. - 2 Kings 5:27
8. If you reject IMPUTED LEGAL righteousness than you must reject LEGAL IMPUTATION of our sins to Christ.
>a. Christ actually did obey EVERY POINT of God's Law without sin. No other human being in history past, present or future has fulfilled the law of God as Christ did - personally, completely, perfectly.
OK, but then the null case for humanity should be "not guilty" i.e. regenerate.
OK, but then the null case for humanity should be "not guilty" i.e. regenerate.
Dr. Walter
New Member
If righteousness was imputed by natural birth you would have a point. However, in regard to justification in the sight of God, righteousness is clearly imputed by faith "in" Christ.
In regard to regeneration, righteousness is imparted within the inward man or new nature, which is created in true holiness and righteousness.
In regard to progressive sanctification, or the manifest righteousness originating from the inward man through the outward man into the life of the believer, there is a limited progressive righteousness according to the measure of grace and faith given by God.
In regard to glorification, there will be complete and perfect righteousness of the entire person obtained.
Since only those given to the Son by the Father come in faith to the Son (Jn. 6:37) and "of all" the father giveth to the Son NONE SHALL BE LOST (Jn. 6:39) therefore all "in Christ" are defined "as many as" those given by the Father (Jn. 17:2) to give eternal life unto according to the Father's elective purpose before the world began (Eph. 1:4). Adam represented the human race but Christ represented all in him by elective purpose (Eph. 1:4). They are those who are in time and space "created in Christ Jesus" by new birth (Eph. 2:10). They are those "in him" positionally by faith (Gal. 3:26; Rom. 3:24-25; 4:23-25). They are those who shall be "in him" fully sanctified spirit, soul and body by glorification.
Hence, David and Job were chosen "in Christ" before the world began and as far as God's purpose they were already glorified (Rom. 8:28-31). They were in Christ regeneratively thus given a righteous "inward man" or new nature. They were in Christ positionally through imputation by faith, thus given Christ's righteousness legally and judically. They were in Christ experientially through progressive sanctification thus manifested limited and progressive righteousness in their lives. They were in Christ representatively when Christ lived and died and they will be perfected in righteousness "in Christ" at glorification.
Among the lost there is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE. They have no righteous nature. They have no righteous position under the law. They have no righteous works in the sight of God but are "workers of iniquity." "All in Adam die" but "all in Christ are made alive" demonstrating that not all in Adam will be in Christ.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As has been stated a dozen times - when circling back to the case of the lost who becomes saved - the argument on both sides is never that the lost peform good deeds and are then accepted/justified/saved based on good works.
Having a greed to that point - a minor correction to your statement above ...
God said that He would continue to Bless Abraham's family
Gen 26
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.''
Moses is writing Gen 26, Moses is writing Deut 27:10 as well
10Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day.
And so also Deut 8:11
Deut 8:11
11 "Beware that you do not forget the LORD your God by not keeping His commandments and His ordinances and His statutes which I am commanding you today;
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Walter said:
1. Cudos for getting the Point that Abraham was a Christian - justified by faith in Christ - under the ONE gospel active in both OT and NT.
2. But as has been stated - that the list come to God without works is not being contested.
The point that is debated is the OSAS rejection of perseverance of the saints and the fact that Paul explicitly links this to future justification in Rom 2:11-16 - thus we have the past justification event that changes the state from lost to saved... and we have the future justification event that provides "heaven" for those who have been seen to be "good trees" -- by their fruit.
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Walter
New Member
"As has been stated a dozen times - when circling back to the case of the lost who becomes saved - the argument on both sides is never that the lost peform good deeds and are then accepted/justified/saved based on good works." - Bob Ryan
What you deny above is exactly what you promote. You simply demand double justification, the first without works and the second by works. In reality your view of justification by faith is no justification at all but only conditional sanctification while your future concept is actual justification because only your furture concept actually justifies anyone. However, as we have proven over and over there is no one word in Romans 2 that teaches the actual literal future justification of any human being on the grounds of works - NONE - NADA - ZIP. Romans 2 simply lays down the ground rules for any who would come to God for justification on the basis of works. There is a huge leap between laying down the qualifications and actually meeting the qualifications. However, you must invent what scriptures do not say or teach in order to promote your heresy.
All you have done is the cultic hermeneutic. The Cultic hermeneutic is to duplicate a doctrine to fit their error when the Biblical data denies their error. You have duplicated another doctrine of justification in the future by works becuase the Biblical doctrine of justification by faith denies the error you want to force into justification.
Last, your doctrine of perseverance confuses justification with progressive sanctification demonstrating you are completely ignorant of both doctrines.
What you deny above is exactly what you promote. You simply demand double justification, the first without works and the second by works. In reality your view of justification by faith is no justification at all but only conditional sanctification while your future concept is actual justification because only your furture concept actually justifies anyone. However, as we have proven over and over there is no one word in Romans 2 that teaches the actual literal future justification of any human being on the grounds of works - NONE - NADA - ZIP. Romans 2 simply lays down the ground rules for any who would come to God for justification on the basis of works. There is a huge leap between laying down the qualifications and actually meeting the qualifications. However, you must invent what scriptures do not say or teach in order to promote your heresy.
All you have done is the cultic hermeneutic. The Cultic hermeneutic is to duplicate a doctrine to fit their error when the Biblical data denies their error. You have duplicated another doctrine of justification in the future by works becuase the Biblical doctrine of justification by faith denies the error you want to force into justification.
Last, your doctrine of perseverance confuses justification with progressive sanctification demonstrating you are completely ignorant of both doctrines.
I don't think we are merely "declared righteous" as a legal technicality. We are made righteous-new creatures by faith in Christ. As renewed people, we are free to make decisions to do good and avoid evil by the power of the Spirit in us. The good works we do demonstrate a living faith as we obey Jesus and love God and neighbor.
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Gal 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Gal 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Your confusing faith with faithfulness and regeneration with justification and thus confusing cause with consequences. progressive sanctification originates with regeneration and deals with impartation of righteusness through you whereas justification deals with imputation of righteousness "for you." The latter satisfies the law's complete demands "For you" in regard to condemnation and eternal life while the former is a progressive and always incomplete process never completed until glorification. However, justification deals with your legal position before God in regard to His law, that determines whether you stand in a position of condemnation under the law or in a position of no condemnation due to Christ's works not yours.
Regeneration has to do with your person and your practice. Justification has to do with your position and future. Justification is by faith and is always "IN" the proper object - Christ and his finished works, whereas faithfulness is always a consequential response TO having been justified. Justifying faith is IN Christ's works FOR YOU whereas faithfulness is your works for Christ.
Dr. Walter
New Member
There is no "circling back" except in your imaginative mind. We are not double justified first by Christ and His works and then by our works. It is the same law and it cannot be fulfilled TWICE, once by Christ FOR US and once by our own works without DOUBLE JUSTIFICATION. Your second justification repudiates the justification by Christ making it merely potential while making your own works effectual. You either repudiate that Christ SATISFIED the law FULLY for the believer or you repudiate that Christ SATISFIED the law at all for the believer. Take your choice as both are equally wrong.
If Christ satisfied the law's demands FULLY then we are justified and "dead to the law by the body of Christ" and "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life" but if we are ultimately justified by our own works then we MAY come into condemnation and we have not passed from death unto life.
Your position requires DOUBLE JUSTIFICATION. Your position repudiates that Christ FINISHED/FULFILLED the Law in behalf of the bliever. Your position makes Christ's works ineffectual or at best potential while making the believers works effectual and actual thus superior to the works of Christ in regard to the DOUBLE justification you embrace. You do admit to a DOUBLE justificaition because you call one past and the other future.
If Christ satisfied the law's demands FULLY then we are justified and "dead to the law by the body of Christ" and "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life" but if we are ultimately justified by our own works then we MAY come into condemnation and we have not passed from death unto life.
Your position requires DOUBLE JUSTIFICATION. Your position repudiates that Christ FINISHED/FULFILLED the Law in behalf of the bliever. Your position makes Christ's works ineffectual or at best potential while making the believers works effectual and actual thus superior to the works of Christ in regard to the DOUBLE justification you embrace. You do admit to a DOUBLE justificaition because you call one past and the other future.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Justification versus sanctification
Bob and others confuse justification with progressive sanctification and as long as they do there is no end of confusion in their minds and no possible way to come to the truth of the gospel.
What Bob sees as "circling back" is the vain imagination in his own mind that progressive sanctification is progressive justification and thus he really has three doctrines of justification. He admits to an intial past tense justification. He defines progressive sanctification as justfication and then he speaks of a yet future justification. The weird twist in his three fold doctrine is that the first past tense justification provides only potential eternal life while his second and third doctrines of justification actual obtain eternal life. Thus the works of Christ obtain nothing but potential while the works of men actually save.
Justification and progressive sanctification are as different as light is from dark and they have different goals.
Justification is a forensic/legal courtroom term that deals with your POSITION before God's law whether you stand in his sight as CONDEMNED or as NOT-CONDEMNED. It is a pure legal question in regard to your legal standing before the Law of God.
Progressive sanctification deals with the CONDITION of your PERSON. Progressive sanctification has to do with regeneration not justification. Regeneration is the impartation of the divine nature within the justified or that which is born of God - the inward man - the new man. Progressive sanctification is the implementation of that inward righteousness being put on in the outward man or life.
The goal of justification by faith is to obtain a legal position before the Law of God that SATISFIES its demands. It demands that NO POINT of the law be violated (James 2:10) or else the law views you as a SINNER and thus CONDEMNED unto death for sin is the trangression of the law and the wages of sin is death. This is why justification is by faith rather than by personal performance as no man's personal performance at any time in their life span is without sin (I Jn. 1:8-10). That is why justification is by faith "IN" the personal performance of Christ "FOR US" because his life is wholly without sin and therefore does fully satisfy all the demands of the law FOR US. The goal of which is we are DEAD to the law by Christ's performance FOR US receiving it by IMPUTATION through faith and our standing before the Law is no more a POSITION OF CONDEMNATION and thus have passed from death unto life in regard to our LEGAL STANDING in God's sight by law. Thus, the goal achieved by justification is sonship now, eternal life now and "shall not come into condemnation" but are NOW heirs of heaven based upon His performance not ours.
The goal of progressive sanctification is not to obtain justification in God's sight. The goal of progressive sanctification is not to obtain eternal life or entrance into heaven. The goal of progressive sanctification is to grow spiritually in knowledge and truth. The goal of progressive sanctification is to be used NOW for the glory of God. The goal of progressive sanctification is to enjoy life and that more abundantly NOW. The goal of progressive sanctification is to obtain temporal blessings, joy, peace, witness NOW with eternal rewards in glory. The goal of progressive sanctification is REDEEM THE TIME by making it count for Christ NOW. However, progressive sanctification has nothing to do with gaining or losing the salvation of the soul (I Cor. 3:11-15; Psa. 89:26-36; Jn. 5:24;6:37-40).
As long as you confuse justification with progressive sanctification there is no hope of coming to know the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ because you are repudiating Christ and His finished works which is the core truth of the gospel by confusing YOUR WORKS with HIS WORKS and by making His works INFERIOR to your works as in this false gospel system where justification is confused with progressive sanctification it is YOUR WORKS that actually obtain justification in the sight of God, ultimately obtain heaven and save you from hell - NOT HIS WORKS. Therefore, those who teach and preach it are "accursed" by Paul.
Justification makes you sinless legally now and forever whereas progressive sanctification NEVER makes you sinless in this life. Justification obtains glorification and neither are conditioned upon your personal performance or power but upon Christ's own personal performance and power.
Bob and others confuse justification with progressive sanctification and as long as they do there is no end of confusion in their minds and no possible way to come to the truth of the gospel.
What Bob sees as "circling back" is the vain imagination in his own mind that progressive sanctification is progressive justification and thus he really has three doctrines of justification. He admits to an intial past tense justification. He defines progressive sanctification as justfication and then he speaks of a yet future justification. The weird twist in his three fold doctrine is that the first past tense justification provides only potential eternal life while his second and third doctrines of justification actual obtain eternal life. Thus the works of Christ obtain nothing but potential while the works of men actually save.
Justification and progressive sanctification are as different as light is from dark and they have different goals.
Justification is a forensic/legal courtroom term that deals with your POSITION before God's law whether you stand in his sight as CONDEMNED or as NOT-CONDEMNED. It is a pure legal question in regard to your legal standing before the Law of God.
Progressive sanctification deals with the CONDITION of your PERSON. Progressive sanctification has to do with regeneration not justification. Regeneration is the impartation of the divine nature within the justified or that which is born of God - the inward man - the new man. Progressive sanctification is the implementation of that inward righteousness being put on in the outward man or life.
The goal of justification by faith is to obtain a legal position before the Law of God that SATISFIES its demands. It demands that NO POINT of the law be violated (James 2:10) or else the law views you as a SINNER and thus CONDEMNED unto death for sin is the trangression of the law and the wages of sin is death. This is why justification is by faith rather than by personal performance as no man's personal performance at any time in their life span is without sin (I Jn. 1:8-10). That is why justification is by faith "IN" the personal performance of Christ "FOR US" because his life is wholly without sin and therefore does fully satisfy all the demands of the law FOR US. The goal of which is we are DEAD to the law by Christ's performance FOR US receiving it by IMPUTATION through faith and our standing before the Law is no more a POSITION OF CONDEMNATION and thus have passed from death unto life in regard to our LEGAL STANDING in God's sight by law. Thus, the goal achieved by justification is sonship now, eternal life now and "shall not come into condemnation" but are NOW heirs of heaven based upon His performance not ours.
The goal of progressive sanctification is not to obtain justification in God's sight. The goal of progressive sanctification is not to obtain eternal life or entrance into heaven. The goal of progressive sanctification is to grow spiritually in knowledge and truth. The goal of progressive sanctification is to be used NOW for the glory of God. The goal of progressive sanctification is to enjoy life and that more abundantly NOW. The goal of progressive sanctification is to obtain temporal blessings, joy, peace, witness NOW with eternal rewards in glory. The goal of progressive sanctification is REDEEM THE TIME by making it count for Christ NOW. However, progressive sanctification has nothing to do with gaining or losing the salvation of the soul (I Cor. 3:11-15; Psa. 89:26-36; Jn. 5:24;6:37-40).
As long as you confuse justification with progressive sanctification there is no hope of coming to know the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ because you are repudiating Christ and His finished works which is the core truth of the gospel by confusing YOUR WORKS with HIS WORKS and by making His works INFERIOR to your works as in this false gospel system where justification is confused with progressive sanctification it is YOUR WORKS that actually obtain justification in the sight of God, ultimately obtain heaven and save you from hell - NOT HIS WORKS. Therefore, those who teach and preach it are "accursed" by Paul.
Justification makes you sinless legally now and forever whereas progressive sanctification NEVER makes you sinless in this life. Justification obtains glorification and neither are conditioned upon your personal performance or power but upon Christ's own personal performance and power.
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ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Dr. Walter, I have not read every word you have written, but it apprears to me to have stuck with their historic and apostolic faith. Thanks sticking around for that.
I just began theology training with my kids, and we are starting with the doctrine of election and predestination. But this thread has reminded me to make sure I show the doctrine of justification clearly and precisely as well.
I just began theology training with my kids, and we are starting with the doctrine of election and predestination. But this thread has reminded me to make sure I show the doctrine of justification clearly and precisely as well.
thegospelgeek
New Member
Having read most, but not all of every post I make note of the following.
All believe we come to Christ by grace through faith.
Some believe that after that point works are what keeps one saved?
I like Dr. Walter a lot and he appears very educated but Doc can say in a thousand words or more what takes an average person to say in 15. :smilewinkgrin:
Let me ask you this, If works keep us saved after we place our faith in Christ How many do I need? How much sin (failure) can I have? If I keep nine commands is it good enough? How about seven or eight. Am I required to keep 10? How about Jesus commands to love one another. What about prefering others above myself, loving my enemies. If I fail to love Osama bin Ladedn does that count? What if I get angry at the drunk driver who kills an innocent child? How about if I fail to go visit that one that God placed on my heart because I was too busy doing something else. Am I required to be perfect? If not how imperfect can I be?
I want to also add that I am not OSAS, so if you think I am arguing from that POV you are incorrect.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Nothing else. Anything else is an idol. The scripture is clear.
All believe we come to Christ by grace through faith.
Some believe that after that point works are what keeps one saved?
I like Dr. Walter a lot and he appears very educated but Doc can say in a thousand words or more what takes an average person to say in 15. :smilewinkgrin:
Let me ask you this, If works keep us saved after we place our faith in Christ How many do I need? How much sin (failure) can I have? If I keep nine commands is it good enough? How about seven or eight. Am I required to keep 10? How about Jesus commands to love one another. What about prefering others above myself, loving my enemies. If I fail to love Osama bin Ladedn does that count? What if I get angry at the drunk driver who kills an innocent child? How about if I fail to go visit that one that God placed on my heart because I was too busy doing something else. Am I required to be perfect? If not how imperfect can I be?
I want to also add that I am not OSAS, so if you think I am arguing from that POV you are incorrect.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Nothing else. Anything else is an idol. The scripture is clear.
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