Jesus & Salvation By Faith ALONE

[Txspurgeon]

Jesus taught salvation by GRACE ALONE, "through" FAITH ALONE, IN CHRIST ALONE.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Sin was the problem that brought a person to Christ. How much sin does it take to be a sinner? Much sin does it take to be a law breaker? James is talking to those who claim to be justified by faith and yet he tells them to offend the law in only ONE POINT makes them a violator of every point of the Law. Hence, before they were lost sinners and now they are simply saved sinners. So there was no change in our CONDITION as sinners before or after regeneration as no one after regeneration is able to keep ALL POINTS any more than they were before regeneration.

Sanctification does not prevent us from violating ONE POINT and therefore ALL POINTS and so sanctification does not change us from being sinners.

The only thing that changes us in God's sight is justification as that is a LEGAL position before the law of God. Before justification we had the LEGAL POSITION of sinners, thus condemnation UNDER the law. Our regenerate condition nor our progressive sanctification changes us from sinners to non-sinners. Therefore, such a change can only be LEGAL and POSITIONAL and due soley to the substitutionary works of Christ. It can only be imputed and never imparted in this life. Hence, the only way we can escape condemnation by the law as SINNERS or violaters of the Law is by Justification not regeneration or sanctification.

Since justification is completely based upon the SINLESS LIFE of Christ and not our SINFUL LIVES, then that is our ONLY HOPE of salvation from the CONDEMNATION of the law now, tomorrow and forever because if our lives are ever used as the basis for justification before the law of God they will never yeild a life that is WITHOUT SIN.

Having read most, but not all of every post I make note of the following.

All believe we come to Christ by grace through faith.
Some believe that after that point works are what keeps one saved?
I like Dr. Walter a lot and he appears very educated but Doc can say in a thousand words or more what takes an average person to say in 15. :smilewinkgrin:

Let me ask you this, If works keep us saved after we place our faith in Christ How many do I need? How much sin (failure) can I have? If I keep nine commands is it good enough? How about seven or eight. Am I required to keep 10? How about Jesus commands to love one another. What about prefering others above myself, loving my enemies. If I fail to love Osama bin Ladedn does that count? What if I get angry at the drunk driver who kills an innocent child? How about if I fail to go visit that one that God placed on my heart because I was too busy doing something else. Am I required to be perfect? If not how imperfect can I be?

I want to also add that I am not OSAS, so if you think I am arguing from that POV you are incorrect.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Nothing else. Anything else is an idol. The scripture is clear.

 

[Txspurgeon]

Having read most, but not all of every post I make note of the following.

All believe we come to Christ by grace through faith.
Some believe that after that point works are what keeps one saved?
I like Dr. Walter a lot and he appears very educated but Doc can say in a thousand words or more what takes an average person to say in 15. :smilewinkgrin:

Let me ask you this, If works keep us saved after we place our faith in Christ How many do I need? How much sin (failure) can I have? If I keep nine commands is it good enough? How about seven or eight. Am I required to keep 10? How about Jesus commands to love one another. What about prefering others above myself, loving my enemies. If I fail to love Osama bin Ladedn does that count? What if I get angry at the drunk driver who kills an innocent child? How about if I fail to go visit that one that God placed on my heart because I was too busy doing something else. Am I required to be perfect? If not how imperfect can I be?

I want to also add that I am not OSAS, so if you think I am arguing from that POV you are incorrect.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Nothing else. Anything else is an idol. The scripture is clear.

It is by grace, that a Christian desires and strives for obedience and Christlikeness. God enables us to. We have been sanctified or "set apart". We are justified in God's eyes. But as Christians, we will progressively be molded into Christlikeness through our good works to eventually be like Christ in our glorification. Obedience is not legalism.
Works dont "keep you saved." Works are EVIDENCE OF true salvation or a saving faith.
Christians are obedient in performing good works because they have already attained salvation. Legalists, ( Church of Christ), believe good works are in order to obtain salvation. Most legalists don't even used the word saved. They dont believe you can be saved until after judgement. It is a whacked theology.
People who constantly worry and complain about having to do good works, need to do some serious self-examination ,to see what it means to truly be a follower of Christ and to see if they are truly saved. Paul said that in 2 Corinthians 13:5. Read 2 Peter 1:5-11; also 1 John 2:4-6. Doing dood works out of obedience and love, is as a result of being saved because your heart has been made new. They are not a means to salvation. If works are done begrudgingly, then the heart may not be regenerate.

 

[thegospelgeek]

It is by grace, that a Christian desires and strives for obedience and Christlikeness. God enables us to. We have been sanctified or "set apart". We are justified in God's eyes. But as Christians, we will progressively be molded into Christlikeness through our good works to eventually be like Christ in our glorification. Obedience is not legalism.
Works dont "keep you saved." Works are EVIDENCE OF true salvation or a saving faith.

Agreed

Christians are obedient in performing good works because they have already attained salvation. Legalists, ( Church of Christ), believe good works are in order to obtain salvation. Most legalists don't even used the word saved. They dont believe you can be saved until after judgement. It is a whacked theology.

Agreed

People who constantly worry and complain about having to do good works, need to do some serious self-examination ,to see what it means to truly be a follower of Christ and to see if they are truly saved. Paul said that in 2 Corinthians 13:5. Read 2 Peter 1:5-11; also 1 John 2:4-6. Doing dood works out of obedience and love, is as a result of being saved because your heart has been made new. They are not a means to salvation. If works are done begrudgingly, then the heart may not be regenerate.

Agreed

I know the answers to my questions. What i want is for one of the legalist here to explain their POV on it.

 

[Andre]

Let me ask you this, If works keep us saved after we place our faith in Christ How many do I need? How much sin (failure) can I have? If I keep nine commands is it good enough? How about seven or eight. Am I required to keep 10? How about Jesus commands to love one another. What about prefering others above myself, loving my enemies. If I fail to love Osama bin Ladedn does that count? What if I get angry at the drunk driver who kills an innocent child? How about if I fail to go visit that one that God placed on my heart because I was too busy doing something else. Am I required to be perfect? If not how imperfect can I be?

This is one of the undersatandable questions that will be asked of those of us who take Paul seriously when he asserts that final salvation will be "according to good works".

While I understand how such a question might arise, I suggest that we are not told what the "standard" is, but to even ask the question shows that one may not have grasped the fine-grained details of Paul's argument.

I suggest that Paul is saying basically this:

"I meant what I wrote in Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:13 - ultimate salvation is based on good works. But since it is the Holy Spirit that generates these good works, you (the person in whom the Spirit dwells) need not concern yourself with the "pass - mark" - the Spirit will ensure that you will become the kind of person who will indeed pass the Romans 2 judgement. All you need to do is persist in (true) faith, and the Spirit will take care of the rest."

 

[Andre]

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. - Rom. 3:27

Roman 3:27 provides only one of two options that a man can be justified without boasting. (1) of works (2) of faith. In regard to these two options the context repeatedly denies justification "of works." Hence, there is no third or fourth option. If the only other option is "of faith" then we must be justified by faith ALONE as there is no other option than "of works" and the very next verse denies that is a viable option before God.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Rom. 3:28

No. The context shows that here, as elsewhere, Paul is not denying ultimate salvation by good works - something he affirms in Romans 2 and elsewhere - he is instead saying that no Jew is justified by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

Here is Romans 3:27-28 in the NASB:

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

What are these works of the Law that Paul thinks cannot justify? Are they “good works” in general, or are they the practices or “works” of the Torah, the Law of Moses?

Paul is clearly talking about the Law of Moses here, and not “good works”. And so the “boast” here (verse 27) is not the boast of the person who thinks he can climb to heaven by a ladder of good works, it is instead the boast of the Jew, who thinks that following the Law of Moses will justify him.

That this is the case is borne out by verse 29, a verse which makes no sense if "good works" or a "or obedience to a general law" are in view in verse 28, but makes perfect sense if the works of the Law of Moses are what Paul is talking about:

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Paul is amplifying the implications of verse 27 and 28 and is clearly focusing on how the Jew and Gentile are both members of God’s family. In verses 27 and 28, he has written that “works” do not justify. In verse 29, it becomes clear that these are the works of the Law of Moses since, obviously, it is by doing the works of the Law of Moses that the Jew could boast "God is God of the Jews only". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Torah, of course. Not good works.

 

[Chowmah]

Jesus taught salvation by GRACE ALONE, "through" FAITH ALONE, IN CHRIST ALONE.

All you guys keep saying the same thing. You are saved by grace through faith. "That is correct" if i may borrow the words of the cash cab guy. But...how did you come by this faith?

GALATIANS 3 [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. So how do these people expect to come into the faith of Christ without first going to the schoolmaster. There are no short cuts that I know of. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? God forbid!

REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Yeah, you can find this truth written many times in the new covenant scriptures.

EPHES. 2 [7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Theres no doubt that only the grace of God will save you. Its a gift we do not deserve. We are all as filthy rags. We all have come up short. But to whom will this gift be given? According to the scriptures it will given to those who are obeying the “voice” of God and observing to keep His 10 commandments. Them that have been to the schoolmaster.

Is there any other way

 

[thegospelgeek]

This is one of the undersatandable questions that will be asked of those of us who take Paul seriously when he asserts that final salvation will be "according to good works".

While I understand how such a question might arise, I suggest that we are not told what the "standard" is, but to even ask the question shows that one may not have grasped the fine-grained details of Paul's argument.

I suggest that Paul is saying basically this:

"I meant what I wrote in Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:13 - ultimate salvation is based on good works. But since it is the Holy Spirit that generates these good works, you (the person in whom the Spirit dwells) need not concern yourself with the "pass - mark" - the Spirit will ensure that you will become the kind of person who will indeed pass the Romans 2 judgement. All you need to do is persist in (true) faith, and the Spirit will take care of the rest."

Am I correct in understanding that you are saying we will be judged on "good works" but not informed as to what the requirements are?

 

[Andre]

Am I correct in understanding that you are saying we will be judged on "good works" but not informed as to what the requirements are?

Yes, that is indeed what I am saying.

But, I am also arguing for why we do not need to "know" what the standard is, precisely because it is the "Spirit's job" to generate these works, not ours.

 

[Andre]

The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. So how do these people expect to come into the faith of Christ without first going to the schoolmaster. There are no short cuts that I know of. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

I suggest that Paul is not speaking about the experience of individual Christians here, but is rather speaking about the Jew, and how, in Israel's national history, the Law of Moses was in place until the time of the Christ.

So I suggest that there is no sense that Paul is saying that anyone should follow the written code of the Law of Moses, this side of the resurrection.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Theres no doubt that only the grace of God will save you. Its a gift we do not deserve. We are all as filthy rags. We all have come up short. But to whom will this gift be given? According to the scriptures it will given to those who are obeying the “voice” of God and observing to keep His 10 commandments. Them that have been to the schoolmaster.

Is there any other way

You are confusing the cause and effect. You are saying that the works keep you saved. Paul is saying that the works are a demonstration of faith. This is the same as taught by James. One is not saved by the works but one has works because of the regeneration of the heart. When one becomes a Christian they develop a love for Christ and a desire to keep his commands. An apple tree bears apples. It does not have to bear them to be an aplle tree. It bears them because that is it's nature. When aone becomes a beleiver in Christ, one keeps his comands not of necessity but because it is what he does. Jesus said if we love him we keep his command not that we keep his commands to love him.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Once again, if I am kept by works, how much works do I have to have?

 

[thegospelgeek]

Yes, that is indeed what I am saying.

But, I am also arguing for why we do not need to "know" what the standard is, precisely because it is the "Spirit's job" to generate these works, not ours.

Please do not take this personnal, as I beleive you are a christian based on my limited information, but that is the same doctrine as taught by Mohammed. That God will judge on works and if your good works are enough you will pass.

If that is the case, what are these "good works" that I must do?

 

[Andre]

Please do not take this personnal, as I beleive you are a christian based on my limited information, but that is the same doctrine as taught by Mohammed. That God will judge on works and if your good works are enough you will pass.

Paul says what he says - ultimate salvation is based on good works - see Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:13, for examples. The fact that Mohammed may have embraced salvation by good works has nothing whatsoever to do with what I am saying.

I am saying that the good works that save are generated by the Holy Spirit, which is given to only those who profess faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

Would Mohammed embrace this same position? Obviously not.

If that is the case, what are these "good works" that I must do?

If, as I have argued, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to generate these works, we need not concern ourselves with the standard. We are given the assurance that the Spirit will indeed transform us.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Paul says what he says - ultimate salvation is based on good works - see Romans 2:6-7 and Romans 8:13, for examples. The fact that Mohammed may have embraced salvation by good works has nothing whatsoever to do with what I am saying.

I am saying that the good works that save are generated by the Holy Spirit, which is given to only those who profess faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

Would Mohammed embrace this same position? Obviously not.


If, as I have argued, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to generate these works, we need not concern ourselves with the standard. We are given the assurance that the Spirit will indeed transform us.

It is starting to sound like I have misunderstood your point. Please clarify.

When you say that the HS will generate the "works", are you saying that one is saved by works, or that one who is saved will have works?

Two totally different arguments.

 

[Chowmah]

I am saying that the good works that save are generated by the Holy Spirit, which is given to only those who profess faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

Hi Andre
Again..how did you recieve the Holy Spirit?

JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.[16] AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever;[17] Even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[21] HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS, AND KEEPETH THEM, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM.

In order to receive the Holy Spirit we must try to keep Gods 10 commandments. The scripture cannot be anymore clear.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are fundementally ignorant of "the law of Moses." The law of Moses is the MORAL LAW OF GOD with ceremonial and civil applications in covenant form with Israel. It is the SAME LAW fundementally written upon the conscience of the Gentiles. Remember, your former argument that the law written upon stone in 2 Cor. 3:3 the SAME LAW written upon the tables of the heart. What law? THE SAME LAW. What does Paul call the law written upon stone versus the law written upon the tables of the heart?

2 Cor. 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
:

Notice the contrast is between TWO administrations of the SAME law.

1. The New Testament/covenant is called
a. the ministration of the Spirit
b. the ministration of righteousness

2. The Old Testament/covenant is called
a. The ministration of death
b. the ministration of condemnation
c. "Moses"

This ministration of death/condemnation was written on stones

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious

It is this ministration of death written and engrae in stones that is done away with (v. 7 "which glory was to be done away") which was called "the old Testament" and called "Moses" or the law of Moses:

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

That which was written and engraven upon stones was the Old Covenant, ministration of death, ministration of condemnation the law of "Moses."


It is the basis for all that can be called LAW by God.

The "works" or "deeds" of the law is nothing more than DOING what the Law defines as RIGHT and not doing what the law defines as NOT RIGHT.

Romans 2:1-16 does not say one single word about anyone being justified by works on the day of judgement. It merely presents the principles for anyone approaching God on the basis of works on the day of judgement. You are reading into this text what it NEVER says. There is a huge leap between laying down principles that determine how works will be judged on judgement day and declaring some will meet those principles. This text does not say one word about any individual or goup of individuals whose works will pass these principles. That is completely contained within the limits of your own fertile imagination. You are being totally dishonest with the text in Romans 2:6-15 as well as with the context.

No. The context shows that here, as elsewhere, Paul is not denying ultimate salvation by good works - something he affirms in Romans 2 and elsewhere - he is instead saying that no Jew is justified by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

Here is Romans 3:27-28 in the NASB:

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

What are these works of the Law that Paul thinks cannot justify? Are they “good works” in general, or are they the practices or “works” of the Torah, the Law of Moses?

Paul is clearly talking about the Law of Moses here, and not “good works”. And so the “boast” here (verse 27) is not the boast of the person who thinks he can climb to heaven by a ladder of good works, it is instead the boast of the Jew, who thinks that following the Law of Moses will justify him.

That this is the case is borne out by verse 29, a verse which makes no sense if "good works" or a "or obedience to a general law" are in view in verse 28, but makes perfect sense if the works of the Law of Moses are what Paul is talking about:

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Paul is amplifying the implications of verse 27 and 28 and is clearly focusing on how the Jew and Gentile are both members of God’s family. In verses 27 and 28, he has written that “works” do not justify. In verse 29, it becomes clear that these are the works of the Law of Moses since, obviously, it is by doing the works of the Law of Moses that the Jew could boast "God is God of the Jews only". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Torah, of course. Not good works.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Hi Andre
Again..how did you recieve the Holy Spirit?

JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.[16] AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever;[17] Even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[21] HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS, AND KEEPETH THEM, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM.

In order to receive the Holy Spirit we must try to keep Gods 10 commandments. The scripture cannot be anymore clear.

Try or Keep

 

[Andre]

It is starting to sound like I have misunderstood your point. Please clarify.

When you say that the HS will generate the "works", are you saying that one is saved by works, or that one who is saved will have works?

Two totally different arguments.

I agree that these are totally different arguments. And I suspect that you will find my argument challenges what I suggest is a pre-supposition on your part, namely that one can point to a specific instant in time and identify that instant as the one at which salvation has taken place.

Paul's argument is more complex. At times he speaks of salvation as something that the believer has already attained. At other times, he speaks of it as something that will only be attained at a coming judgement. So we need to accept that Paul's salvation model has a temporal structure.

So I cannot answer your question as posed, because the way you frame the issue forces me to the "salvation occurs at one point it time" model - a model that I suggest cannot be squared with what Paul actually writes.

But I will attempt to respond as follows: Paul can truthfully write that the Christian "has been saved" at the point of faith precisely and only because he (Paul) believes that the Spirit will guarantee that the person will indeed be transformed into the person who will indeed pass the "good works" standard required for ultimate salvation.

 

[Txspurgeon]

All you guys keep saying the same thing. You are saved by grace through faith. "That is correct" if i may borrow the words of the cash cab guy. But...how did you come by this faith?

GALATIANS 3 [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. So how do these people expect to come into the faith of Christ without first going to the schoolmaster. There are no short cuts that I know of. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? God forbid!

REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Yeah, you can find this truth written many times in the new covenant scriptures.

EPHES. 2 [7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Theres no doubt that only the grace of God will save you. Its a gift we do not deserve. We are all as filthy rags. We all have come up short. But to whom will this gift be given? According to the scriptures it will given to those who are obeying the “voice” of God and observing to keep His 10 commandments. Them that have been to the schoolmaster.

Is there any other way

Yea, God's law is eternal. It was never "done away with."
Here is a fine article that explains alot of this. It has to do with obedience too. I enjoyed it, and it helped alot.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Tracts and Writings/LegalismAndObedience.htm