Jesus & Salvation By Faith ALONE

[Chowmah]

Once again, if I am kept by works, how much works do I have to have?

Its your duty

ROMANS 3 [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] FOR ALL HAVE SINNED, AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY of God; [24] BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] THEREFORE WE CONCLUDE THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. [29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Because we all have broken the 10 commandments, we all have sinned and come up short. So we could never be justified by the keeping of the commandments, but by faith. But do we make void the law (10 commandments) because of that faith? GOD FORBID.

LUKE 17 [5] And the apostles said unto the Lord, INCREASE OUR FAITH. [6] And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. [7] But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? [8] And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? [9] DOTH HE THANK THAT SERVANT BECAUSE HE DID THE THINGS THAT WERE COMMANDED HIM? I TROW NOT. [10] So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, WE ARE UNPROFITABLE SERVANTS: WE HAVE DONE THAT WHICH WAS OUR DUTY TO DO.

Some parables are so clear. Even though we have done which was our duty to do and did the things commanded of us, we are still unprofitable servants. Filthy rags. Its only by grace through faith that we are saved. OK, so what is our duty that we must do?

ECCLES. 12 [8] Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. [9] And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. [10] The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. [11] THE WORDS OF THE WISE are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from ONE SHEPHERD. [12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. [13] LET US HEAR THE CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

You all should know who that "one shepherd" is. Theres the conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

PSALM 119 [126] It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law. [127] Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. [128] Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

It wont be long before the Lord goes to work

 

[Andre]

You are fundementally ignorant of "the law of Moses." The law of Moses is the MORAL LAW OF GOD with ceremonial and civil applications in covenant form with Israel. It is the SAME LAW fundementally written upon the conscience of the Gentiles.

I suggest that the ignorance is yours. The Law of Moses is not as you describe - it is not something that is for Gentiles at all.

The Law of Moses is constituted by the 613 "rules" and practices that were given to Moses at Mount Sinai. These include the 10 commandments and a host of other things. This law was given to the Jews and the Jews only. Note how this specificity to the nation of Israel is set forth in this statement, made by God, as He sets forth the food purity rules associated with the Law of Moses:

'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me [c] because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

Now I want to be clear - Paul indeed writes of a "law" that has been written on the heart of the Gentile. And I will get to that in a later post. But we need to keep our categories clean and true to the Biblical material.

The Law of Moses refers to the written edicts that were given to Jews and Jews only. Pual clearly understands that the Law of Moses is for Jews only in this bit of Romans 3, where it is clear that Paul is arguing that if the Law of Moses could justify, Gentiles would be on the outside.
Why? Obviously because the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only:

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

 

[Andre]

Romans 2:1-16 does not say one single word about anyone being justified by works on the day of judgement.

It most certainly does - the plain sense of these words is clear: there is a future judgement at which eternal life is granted in accordance with what one has done:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

It merely presents the principles for anyone approaching God on the basis of works on the day of judgement.

I suggest that there is no actual evidence to support this view and that it is you, not me, who is reading into the text. Let's be clear - Romans 2:6-7 does indeed assert that ultimate salvation is based on good works. It is you, not me, who is asserting that Paul does not mean what he has actually written.

You are reading into this text what it NEVER says. There is a huge leap between laying down principles that determine how works will be judged on judgement day and declaring some will meet those principles.

But there is no evidence at all that Paul is doing what you suggest. There is no evidence that Paul believes that zero persons will get eternal life in the manner suggested in 2:6-7. And you are placed in the very odd position of having to explain why Paul would write of people getting eternal life based on good works, when he, in fact, believes that zero persons will get life in this way.

At the end of the day, you have no actual case that Paul is laying down a purely hypothetical path to salvation.

You are being totally dishonest with the text in Romans 2:6-15 as well as with the context.

Please stop with the suggestions of dishonesty. As for similar suggestions you have made, you have precisely zero knowledge of my moral character in respect to matters of honesty.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Its your duty

Because we all have broken the 10 commandments, we all have sinned and come up short. So we could never be justified by the keeping of the commandments, but by faith. But do we make void the law (10 commandments) because of that faith? GOD FORBID.

agreed

Some parables are so clear. Even though we have done which was our duty to do and did the things commanded of us, we are still unprofitable servants. Filthy rags. Its only by grace through faith that we are saved.

agreed

ECCLES. 12 [8] Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. [9] And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. [10] The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. [11] THE WORDS OF THE WISE are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from ONE SHEPHERD. [12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. [13] LET US HEAR THE CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

You all should know who that "one shepherd" is. Theres the conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

PSALM 119 [126] It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law. [127] Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. [128] Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

It wont be long before the Lord goes to work

Exactly why we rely on grace through faith.


Once again, are we required to try or keep his commands.

 

[Andre]

This ministration of death/condemnation was written on stones

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious

It is this ministration of death written and engrae in stones that is done away with (v. 7 "which glory was to be done away") which was called "the old Testament" and called "Moses" or the law of Moses:

Agreed. The Law of Moses is what I have said it is - the written code that is given to the Jews and the Jews only.

Now we both seem to agree that the Law of Moses was done away with. But we also both know that Paul writes of a "law" that is indeed affirmed, not done away with.

I will not argue the point in the post, but I will assert that Paul discerns a "second law", other than the Law of Moses. And it is this "second law" that Paul asserts has been affirmed and can be followed by the Gentile (as per Romans 2 and elsewhere).

 

[Dr. Walter]

Again, you advertise your ignorance with liberality. Those 613 commandments have one basis and that is the ten commandments. Just as Christ said all the law and the prophets can be summed up in two (first five toward God, second five toward man) the 613 are included or Christ didn't mean what he said, "ALL of the law and the prophets."

The distinction between clear and unclean animals preceded Moses all the way back to Noah in Genesis 6 and is found in the idoltrous sacrifices in all heathen religions through Noah's sons.

Sir, you simply do not understand what you are talking about and the more you talk the more obvious it will become.

I suggest that the ignorance is yours. The Law of Moses is not as you describe - it is not something that is for Gentiles at all.

The Law of Moses is constituted by the 613 "rules" and practices that were given to Moses at Mount Sinai. These include the 10 commandments and a host of other things. This law was given to the Jews and the Jews only. Note how this specificity to the nation of Israel is set forth in this statement, made by God, as He sets forth the food purity rules associated with the Law of Moses:

'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me [c] because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

Now I want to be clear - Paul indeed writes of a "law" that has been written on the heart of the Gentile. And I will get to that in a later post. But we need to keep our categories clean and true to the Biblical material.

The Law of Moses refers to the written edicts that were given to Jews and Jews only. Pual clearly understands that the Law of Moses is for Jews only in this bit of Romans 3, where it is clear that Paul is arguing that if the Law of Moses could justify, Gentiles would be on the outside.
Why? Obviously because the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only:

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

 

[thegospelgeek]

Please stop with the suggestions of dishonesty. As for similar suggestions you have made, you have precisely zero knowledge of my moral character in respect to matters of honesty.

Don't take Doc's statement as you are dishonest. That is not what he is saying. It is just his way of saying that he diagree's with how you are reading the text. He just talks funny. Much learning has made him crazy:laugh:

Back to our point, I am losing understanding of your arguments.

Are you saying that one can not be saved untill judgement, and that one is not changed (regenerated) by faith in Christ? That is quite a different view than I have heard before. How do you get around all of the verses where salvation is spoken of in past and present tense? Also, what happens when one places beliving faith in Christ?

 

[Txspurgeon]

I agree that these are totally different arguments. And I suspect that you will find my argument challenges what I suggest is a pre-supposition on your part, namely that one can point to a specific instant in time and identify that instant as the one at which salvation has taken place.

Paul's argument is more complex. At times he speaks of salvation as something that the believer has already attained. At other times, he speaks of it as something that will only be attained at a coming judgement. So we need to accept that Paul's salvation model has a temporal structure.

So I cannot answer your question as posed, because the way you frame the issue forces me to the "salvation occurs at one point it time" model - a model that I suggest cannot be squared with what Paul actually writes.

But I will attempt to respond as follows: Paul can truthfully write that the Christian "has been saved" at the point of faith precisely and only because he (Paul) believes that the Spirit will guarantee that the person will indeed be transformed into the person who will indeed pass the "good works" standard required for ultimate salvation.

Since you think we are judged according to good works , then tell me where the imputed righteousness of Christ comes in. We are judged on His merit. Therefore we are IN CHRIST. He is our Rock. HE is the Lamb, He is the PERFECT propitation fo our sins. We are judged according to Christ's good works. Christ's perfection ONLY is good enough to merit the opportunity to be in the presence of the Father. Also, we are "rewarded" according to our good works. God doesnt measure the amount or kind of good works we do and determine our salvation from there. Our salvation is determined by the good works and righteousness of Christ Himself, and we are rewarded based on our obedience.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Again, you advertise your ignorance with liberality. Those 613 commandments have one basis and that is the ten commandments. Just as Christ said all the law and the prophets can be summed up in two (first five toward God, second five toward man) the 613 are included or Christ didn't mean what he said, "ALL of the law and the prophets."

The distinction between clear and unclean animals preceded Moses all the way back to Noah in Genesis 6 and is found in the idoltrous sacrifices in all heathen religions through Noah's sons.

Sir, you simply do not understand what you are talking about and the more you talk the more obvious it will become.

Come on Doc, you are better than that. Here I am defending you and you are leaning towards personnal attacks.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Agreed. The Law of Moses is what I have said it is - the written code that is given to the Jews and the Jews only.

Now we both seem to agree that the Law of Moses was done away with. But we also both know that Paul writes of a "law" that is indeed affirmed, not done away with.

I will not argue the point in the post, but I will assert that Paul discerns a "second law", other than the Law of Moses. And it is this "second law" that Paul asserts has been affirmed and can be followed by the Gentile (as per Romans 2 and elsewhere).

Paul does not move to a THIRD OPTION in 2 Cor. 3:3-17. It is the TEN COMMANDMENTS that introduces this context and it is the TEN COMMANDMENTS written on stones that is called the old covenant, the ministration of condemnation and death, the lessor glory and it is the TEN COMMANDMENTS written on stones that is done away with.

It is the TEN COMMANDMENTS written upon the fleshly tables of the heart, it is the TEN COMMANDMENTS that is the ministration of the Spirit and the ministration of righteousness.

The Gentiles have the same TEN COMMANDMENTS written upon their conscience and indeed it is written upon the conscience of every man and is that light given every man that cometh into the world. This and this alone is THE LAW OF MOSES and THE LAW OF GOD and every other law that God gives man is nothing more than the application of the TEN COMMANDMENTS to religious and civil life. The gentile was not given the other written applications.

The distinction here is quite simple. The TEN COMMANDMENTS whether on stone (not given to the Gentiles) or the TEN COMMANDMENTS written in the human conscience provides sufficient light to CONDEMN and JUDGE ALL MEN TO ETERNAL DEATH but "DEEDS" or DOING or trying to observe this law whether in stone, in conscience, in ceremonial or civil applications cannot convey eternal life to any man as no man is justified by any application of the TEN COMMANDMENTS in the sight of God.

 

[Chowmah]

You are confusing the cause and effect. You are saying that the works keep you saved.

Never said nor implied such a thing.

 

[Andre]

Again, you advertise your ignorance with liberality. Those 613 commandments have one basis and that is the ten commandments.

I am quite confident that you will not be able to make a Biblical case for this assertion that all these 613 items are grounded in the 10 commandments.

Please explain to us the connection between any of the 10 commandments and this item from the Law of Moses:

'These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

The distinction between clear and unclean animals preceded Moses all the way back to Noah in Genesis 6 and is found in the idoltrous sacrifices in all heathen religions through Noah's sons.

That may or may not be so. But the stuff about the food laws is indeed part of the Law of Moses.

Sir, you simply do not understand what you are talking about and the more you talk the more obvious it will become.

I will let my arguments speak for themselves and leave the demeaning, insuting, and rude behaviour to people like you, who appear to be much more skilled in this mode of "debate" than I am.

 

[Chowmah]

You are fundementally ignorant of "the law of Moses." The law of Moses is the MORAL LAW OF GOD with ceremonial and civil applications in covenant form with Israel.

Yeah good Dr, thats how it started. Covenants with the house of Israel

EPHES. 2 [11] Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST GENTILES in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

But now! We are no longer strangers from those covenants. The covenants are not only for the children of Israel but also for us gentiles. Aint that great good Dr.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Never said nor implied such a thing.

Sorry that I misunderstood you then. What are you saying the relationship between works and salvation are?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Leviticus 10-11 sets forth the dietary law


....that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

The moral principles in the ten commandments are applied in every day aspects of our life so that our eating, clothing, medical treatments all are designed to teach us the principles of the Ten commandments in pictures and practices in the Jewish life.

It does not take too much study of books like Psalms and Proverbs and other books of the Old Testament to clearly see that animals are pictures of certain kinds of people with clean and unclean habits or morals.

Those animals that are clean have among other things characteristics that are clean and consistent with righteous principles. For example, the sea life that can be eaten have scales and fins thus they move along through their world sheilded by scales from the world they live in and the fins keep them from just settling down on the floor. The scales and fins represent sanctification, separation from the world we live in and that this world is not our home we are just a passing through.

For example animals that Jews were forbidden to eat have characteristics that typify ungodliness. The birds that are birds of prey that devour others, the animals that devour others with claws. The animals that crawl around in the dirt without any ability to fly. All of these have obvious moral characteristics that are ungodly.

The clean animals were those that chew the cud and part the hoof. When an animal chews the cud they get every bit of nourishment from their food and that food is in their mouth most of the time and that is precisely the kind of character the righteous man is commanded to do when we are told to "meditate" in the word of God day and night and desire it more than necessary food and we are to speak as the oracles of God. The parted hoof teaches the separated walk of the believer.


Too many professed Christians have hoof and mouth disease. Either they have the right talk but the wrong walk or they have the right walk but the wrong talk.

The particular birds that you list are birds of prey who live by devouring one another. I wonder what principle that would teach a discerning spiritual Jew?

Now, here is the problem. You have just accused Jesus Christ of being a liar. He said that ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS can be summarized by the two great divisions of the Ten commandments and you present supposed evidence that Christ is mistaken. I said, the more you bloviate the more obvious your ignorance becomes and you are making me a prophet. If you don't like being exposed then it is best to hold your peace and just listen and learn from others.

I am quite confident that you will not be able to make a Biblical case for this assertion that all these 613 items are grounded in the 10 commandments.

Please explain to us the connection between any of the 10 commandments and this item from the Law of Moses:

'These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.


That may or may not be so. But the stuff about the food laws is indeed part of the Law of Moses.


I will let my arguments speak for themselves and leave the demeaning, insuting, and rude behaviour to people like you, who appear to be much more skilled in this mode of "debate" than I am.

 

[Chowmah]

Sorry that I misunderstood you then. What are you saying the relationship between works and salvation are?

What does your Redeemer say? The Holy One of Israel.

ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, THE HOLY ONE of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. [18] O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

 

[thegospelgeek]

What does your Redeemer say? The Holy One of Israel.

ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, THE HOLY ONE of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. [18] O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Still not answering my question or my question is not being understood.

Are you saved by your works of righteousness?

 

[Chowmah]

Those animals that are clean have among other things characteristics that are clean and consistent with righteous principles. For example, the sea life that can be eaten have scales and fins thus they move along through their world sheilded by scales from the world they live in and the fins keep them from just settling down on the floor. The scales and fins represent sanctification, separation from the world we live in and that this world is not our home we are just a passing through.

Could you show me the scriptues which back up this idea of being sanctified?

I found some you might want to read

EZEKIEL 20 [12] Moreover also I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN between me and them, that they might know THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM.

The sabbath is a sign between God and his people that the “Lord does sanctify them”.

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.[17] THEY THAT SANCTIFY THEMSELVES, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, SHALL BE CONSUMED together, saith the LORD.

I just love “Day of the Lord” scriptures. No one can claim that the scripture is for ancient Israel, because its yet to be fulfilled. It will be fulfilled when Jesus returns. Anyways, if THE SABBATH IS A SIGN THAT GOD SANCTIFYS YOU. Who are those that “sanctify themselves”? Pretty simple to figure out.

 

[Chowmah]

Still not answering my question or my question is not being understood.

Are you saved by your works of righteousness?

No you are not saved by works. You are saved by the grace of God, through faith after youve been to schoolmaster

 

[thegospelgeek]

No you are not saved by works. You are saved by the grace of God, through faith after youve been to schoolmaster

Are you kept by works?