Jesus & Salvation By Faith ALONE

[Andre]

If Jesus is a special case then you don't believe in substitionary atonement?? If the case with Jesus is not our case then no substitutionary atonement is necessary as he would be a substitute FOR US. So your argument breaks down completely unless you deny substitutionary atonement.

No. I fully agree that Jesus bears with and deals with sin on the cross. How does that mean that Jesus' sinlessness implies that a person must be perfect in order to get eternal life based on good works?

Judgement cannnot be processed apart from God's own righteousness which is manifested in "the law and the prophets" and in "Jesus Christ." There is no other standard and so your argument breaks down completely unless you can show that God has some other standard of righteousenss other than His OWN righteousness??? The very idea places God's own righteousness in jepordy.

You seem to be making statements without Biblical support. Please tell us precisely how my assertion that "perfection" is not needed at the Romans 2 judgement in any sense denies

(1) that Christ paid for my sins on the cross

(2) impugns the righteousness of God.

You appear to simply assume that since God is morally perfect, he cannot accept us for entry to eternal life (based on deeds) unless we have split the atom, cured cancer, given all our money away, saved ducks, etc. etc.

Let's remember what I am asserting: I am asserting that final salvation is by deeds. That does not lessen the importance of Jesus' work on the cross. Without our sins "dealt with" on the cross, we have no hope. But just because having our sins dealt with is necessary for salvation, it does not mean that we do not also need to manifest the good works produced by Spirit in order to attain salvation.

Now please do not musunderstand me: I believe that it is only through the work of the Cross that that the Spirit is given. So once you accept Christ by faith, your future salvation is assured (unless you renounce your faith), precisely because we are promised to be transformed:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified

 

[Andre]

Jesus never needed to get saved but He needed to satisfy EXACTLY what was needed for YOU to be saved. You are denying he satisfied it completely but rather YOU must satisfy it by your own works.

I am doing no such thing. I have been quite clear about this - it is the work of the Holy Spirit that is responsible for the works that justify. Where did I get that idea? From Paul:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

There is no Guilt where there is no law violated and where there is law violated the guilt is a consequence of the laws condemnation of that violation.

We are not under law! We are now under the Spirit. I am not sure what you are trying to say. Yes Christians sin even after entering into faith. But where is the specifically Biblical case that says that one needs to be perfect in respect to deed to be saved? You seem to be invoking a lot of high level principles here, but I see no texts to support your position.

Your position is exactly the position of the Judaizers in Galatians and your position does exactly what theirs did - repudiates Jesus Christ as the complete satisfaction for sin - repudiates the grace of God and repudiates the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Absolutely incorrect. You might conclude that I am repudiating the gospel, but that is only because you are looking at my arguments with some of your suppositions.

I will not tire of reminding you and others. It is me who believes this statement:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

When people say this is a description of a standard, they are re-writing Paul's words. He says what he says: there will be a judgement and there will be those to whom eternal life is given based on works.

If Paul had wanted to say this is an unattainable standard, he would have said so. But he hasn't. People misread later statements by Paul about how we are not justified by "works" and then conclude that Paul does not really believe what he wrote in 2:6-7 (or in 8:13) for that matter.

Do you really believe that Paul writes things he knows to be untrue?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Under the work of the Holy Spirit you are REDUPLICATING what Christ did in his life for our justification. Either we are justified by faith by what HE DID or we are justified before God by what WE DO - can't be both without reduplication. You simply don't beleive what Christ did FOR US is sufficient FOR US but your interpretation of progressive sanctification is REDUPLICATION. Either Christ is "THE END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS" or He is not. Your view denies He is "THE END" but makes him the BEGINNING with the work of the Holy Spirit as "THE END...for righteousness."

The same DEMANDS God placed on Christ for our justfiication in His sight would be the SAME demands God would place on you or me for justification in His sight. There is no double standard or reduplication. Either Christ satisfied that standand FOR US or He did not. Your view repudiates THE WORKS of Christ and demands that the Holy Spirit must reduplicate it through OUR WORKS but according to a DIFFERENT standard.

You don't know the difference between justification and regeneration with progressive santification.

No. I fully agree that Jesus bears with and deals with sin on the cross. How does that mean that Jesus' sinlessness implies that a person must be perfect in order to get eternal life based on good works?


You seem to be making statements without Biblical support. Please tell us precisely how my assertion that "perfection" is not needed at the Romans 2 judgement in any sense denies

(1) that Christ paid for my sins on the cross

(2) impugns the righteousness of God.

You appear to simply assume that since God is morally perfect, he cannot accept us for entry to eternal life (based on deeds) unless we have split the atom, cured cancer, given all our money away, saved ducks, etc. etc.

Let's remember what I am asserting: I am asserting that final salvation is by deeds. That does not lessen the importance of Jesus' work on the cross. Without our sins "dealt with" on the cross, we have no hope. But just because having our sins dealt with is necessary for salvation, it does not mean that we do not also need to manifest the good works produced by Spirit in order to attain salvation.

Now please do not musunderstand me: I believe that it is only through the work of the Cross that that the Spirit is given. So once you accept Christ by faith, your future salvation is assured (unless you renounce your faith), precisely because we are promised to be transformed:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified

 

[Andre]

Under the work of the Holy Spirit you are REDUPLICATING what Christ did in his life for our justification.

This is a circular argument - You assume that your understanding of justification is correct and then, based on that assumption, you see this my problem with my view.

My view does not entail this notion that the Holy Spirit is replicating the work of the cross.

Either we are justified by faith by what HE DID or we are justified before God by what WE DO - can't be both without reduplication.

No. Again you are doing the same thing - projecting your beliefs about the nature of justification onto me.

As I have written in other posts, and following carefully how Paul uses his tenses, I see justification as having both a "present" and a "future" sense. With that perspective, I am not doing any duplication at all.

You simply don't beleive what Christ did FOR US is sufficient FOR US but your interpretation of progressive sanctification is REDUPLICATION.

No. Same problem with your conclusion.

 

[Dr. Walter]

My "assumption"? Is it my "assumption" that the life of Christ satisfied the righteousness of God for us???????? You believe that is an "assumption"?
May I ask you then, what do you believe the life of Christ (His good works) satisfied if it were not the demand of righteousness by the Law of God?????? And if you believe that, do you believe He did it for HIMSELF or "for us"????

This is a circular argument - You assume that

your understanding of justification is correct and then, based on that assumption, you see this my problem with my view.

My view does not entail this notion that the Holy Spirit is replicating the work of the cross.


No. Again you are doing the same thing - projecting your beliefs about the nature of justification onto me.

As I have written in other posts, and following carefully how Paul uses his tenses, I see justification as having both a "present" and a "future" sense. With that perspective, I am not doing any duplication at all.


No. Same problem with your conclusion.

 

[Andre]

My "assumption"? Is it my "assumption" that the life of Christ satisfied the righteousness of God for us???????? You believe that is an "assumption"?

No, I never said that. I said what I said - You assume that your understanding of justification is correct and then, based on that assumption, you see this my problem with my view.

May I ask you then, what do you believe the life of Christ (His good works) satisfied if it were not the demand of righteousness by the Law of God?????? And if you believe that, do you believe He did it for HIMSELF or "for us"????

Good question. And this will bring out what I suspect is a deep fundamental difference between us.

Jesus's fundamental obedience was to the covenantal calling of Israel to be the light of the world, not to the Law of Moses.

Most in the reformed tradition understand that Jesus came to be obedient to the Law of Moses, thereby enabling us to not have to obey it to get saved.

I do not think this is correct. Jesus was fundamentally obedient to the vocation of Israel to be the means by which the world is to be rescued from sin and death.

And, of course, that was done for our benefit.

This could get exceedingly complicated - all these issues are inter-connected. But to return to your first objection, I believe that the "righteousness of God" as fulfilled by Jesus was that Jesus fulfilled the covenant on Israel's behalf, not that He was obedient to the Law of Moses.

 

[dan p]

Grace alone ?

though nowhere in the bible will you find that phrase stated in that manner.

Hi , and how about Eph 2:8 , saved by grace alone , through faith , and that not of yourselves , and is this different than Acts 2:38 , or Mark 16:16 or maybe Matt 3:6 , and are they different ???

 

[Dr. Walter]

Hi , and how about Eph 2:8 , saved by grace alone , through faith , and that not of yourselves , and is this different than Acts 2:38 , or Mark 16:16 or maybe Matt 3:6 , and are they different ???

Faith alone is stated directly in Romans 3:27-28. There are two principles placed in contrast, the principle of "works" and the principle of "faith." NTHER OPTIONS for justification are considered. The principle of "works" is rejected leaving ONLY the principle of faith - thus thus justification by faith ALONE

 

[Dr. Walter]

Jesus's fundamental obedience was to the covenantal calling of Israel to be the light of the world, not to the Law of Moses.

Most in the reformed tradition understand that Jesus came to be obedient to the Law of Moses, thereby enabling us to not have to obey it to get saved.

I do not think this is correct. Jesus was fundamentally obedient to the vocation of Israel to be the means by which the world is to be rescued from sin and death.

And, of course, that was done for our benefit.

This could get exceedingly complicated - all these issues are inter-connected. But to return to your first objection, I believe that the "righteousness of God" as fulfilled by Jesus was that Jesus fulfilled the covenant on Israel's behalf, not that He was obedient to the Law of Moses.

Where in the Bible does Jesus or anyone else ever violate the NEW covenant where it has to be satisfied by his life and death????????????????? I will tell you exactly where - NOWHERE!


The law of Moses is inseparable from the "old Covenant." Indeed, this covenant was made at Mount Sinai between God and Israel through MOSES:

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. - Gal. 4:24-25

The life and death of Christ was a "propitiation" or satisfaction, that satisfied the violated justice of God NOT MERELY BY JEWS but BY SINNERS both Jews and Gentiles. What was violated was the moral law of God given at Mount Sinai and made as a covenant between Israel and God. The same "works" covenant was made by God with MANKIND in Adam in Eden.

The "new" covenant is the provision of propitiation for violation of God's moral law by MANKIND in Adam as well as the Jewish violation of that same law in the Old Covenant God made with Israel at Mount Sinai. It is the same violation the Gentiles committed in breaking the same law written upon their conscience.

There are only two contrasting covenants presented in the scriptures and the first or old covenant cannot justify any flesh whether in Eden, at Sinai or written upon the conscience of all men. The new covenant is the provision of Christ to be the propitiation for the violation of God's moral law as presented in Eden, in Sinai and in the human conscience.

There are only TWO laws for justification - the law "OF WORKS" and the law "OF FAITH." The law "of works" is justification by GOOD works as no other kind of works can justify. However, Paul eliminates, repudiates the law "of works" because NO FLESH is capable of producing "GOOD" works in the sight of God. It is therefore limited to justificaiton by "faith" ALONE without works and must be, because ALL OF THE GOOD WORKS sufficiently essential to justify sinners is provided by the propitiation of Christ and therefore can only be imputed to the sinner through faith in the gospel promise.

 

[Benoni]

This is not true. Besides there is the priesthood of God that will save all God has not called.

 

[Benoni]

Faith of a Mustard seed. The only faith a seed can have is the faith to grow.

Mentioned five times in the New Testament.


Matthew 13:31

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took,
and sowed in his field:


Matthew 17:20

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you,
If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove;
and nothing shall be impossible unto you.


Mark 4:31

It is like a grain of mustard seed,
which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:


Luke 13:19

It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his
garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches
of it.


Luke 17:6

And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say
unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea;
and it should obey you.

 

[DHK]

This is not true. Besides there is the priesthood of God that will save all God has not called.

Let's get this straight:
"God will save all God has not called."
Do you mean to say that God will save Hitler, Stalin, etc.? Are you a universalist? No one will spend eternity in hell?

 

[Benoni]

Let's get this straight:
"God will save all God has not called."
Do you mean to say that God will save Hitler, Stalin, etc.? Are you a universalist? No one will spend eternity in hell?

Were not Hitler and Stalin created in God's image and likeness? Is Jesus blood so weak it cannot reverse the sin of little Adam? God caused the fall and God will restore all that has fallen. Romans 8:20.

I already have post I am a Christian Universalist.

 

[DHK]

Were not Hitler and Stalin created in God's image and likeness? Is Jesus blood so weak it cannot reverse the sin of little Adam? God caused the fall and God will restore all that has fallen. Romans 8:20.

I already have post I am a Christian Universalist.

No God cannot.
God cannot do that which is against nature.
God cannot do that which is against His Word.
God cannot do that which is against His Promises.
And most of all God cannot lie.

Do you believe God lies?
Is this the kind of God you serve?

 

[Benoni]

Do you believe God lies?
Is this the kind of God you serve?

Let me answer the lie question with God’s Word.

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,
(ASV) And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
(CEV) So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.
(CLV) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
(DRB)(2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
(EMTV) And because of this, God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie,
(ESV) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
(Geneva) And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should beleave lies,
(GNB) And so God sends the power of error to work in them so that they believe what is false.
(GW) That's why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.
(ISV) For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
(JPS)
(KJ2000) And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVA) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVR) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(LITV) And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
(LONT) For this cause, God will send them strong delusion, that they may believe a lie;
(MKJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
(Murdock) Therefore God will send upon them the operation of deception, that they may believe a lie;
(RYLT-NT) and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
(The Scriptures '98+)And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,1Footnote: 1Eze. 20:25, John 9:39, John 12:40, Acts 7:42, Rom. 1:24-28.
(Webster) And for this cause God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(WNT) And for this reason God sends them a misleading influence that they may believe the lie;

 

[Benoni]

No God cannot.
God cannot do that which is against nature.

What is God’s nature to torture, or to save?
God is a balanced God not a monster.

God cannot do that which is against His Word.

I using His Word? It is man’s bad translations that are at fought not God’s Word. You got to dig beyond the letter that killeth.

God cannot do that which is against His Promises.

What promises are you speaking of. He made one with Abraham that his seed shall be like the sands of the sea shore and the stars in the heaven… that is a promise and that is a lot of people.

 

[DHK]

Let me answer the lie question with God’s Word.

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,

Just one translation will do.
What is the context? The context is the coming anti-christ in the end times. All the world will follow him. It will be a time when God's wrath will be poured out upon this world. It will be God himself who will blind the eyes of the people; for this day of grace will have come to an end, and the time of judgment will have become. Therefore God Himself will send them deception, as it says. The world will believe a lie. The lie? They will all believe that the antichrist is God. This is a future event and has nothing to do with Hitler and Stalin who are already in Hell awaiting their final sentencing at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:11-15) only to be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever and ever to be tormented in those flames.

 

[DHK]

What is God’s nature to torture, or to save?
God is a balanced God not a monster.

God is a just God. If there is eternal life there is must also be eternal death. That is justice. If there is the offer of eternal life through the reception of Jesus Christ as Savior; then there is the denial of eternal life through through the denial of Jesus Christ as Savior. God is a just God. God is a monster. You are a monster for suggesting that a kind and merciful God who gave his life that we might have eternal is a monster. That in and of itself is blasphemy. Do you believe you are worthy of eternal life? If you were to stand before God right now and he were to ask you: "Why should I allow you into my heaven?" What would you answer?

I using His Word? It is man’s bad translations that are at fought not God’s Word. You got to dig beyond the letter that killeth.

God gave us His Word in written form. You say the letter killeth. Are you a gnostic? How do you receive revelation from God? Revelation comes only through God's Word.
My statement was "God cannot do that which is against His Word."
He has given us His Word in the 66 books of the Bible.
He will not go against that which is written in those books.

What promises are you speaking of. He made one with Abraham that his seed shall be like the sands of the sea shore and the stars in the heaven… that is a promise and that is a lot of people.

Then study out the promises that do apply to you. God spoke to Moses in a burning bush, but he doesn't promise to speak to you that way. The Bible says:
"Study to show yourselves approved unto God; a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Do you rightly divide the word of truth? If you so study, you will know what promises apply to you and which do not.

 

[Benoni]

Just one translation will do.
What is the context? The context is the coming anti-christ in the end times. All the world will follow him. It will be a time when God's wrath will be poured out upon this world. It will be God himself who will blind the eyes of the people; for this day of grace will have come to an end, and the time of judgment will have become. Therefore God Himself will send them deception, as it says. The world will believe a lie. The lie? They will all believe that the antichrist is God. This is a future event and has nothing to do with Hitler and Stalin who are already in Hell awaiting their final sentencing at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:11-15) only to be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever and ever to be tormented in those flames.

Antichrist

Do you know who the anti Christ is; there are many antichrist. The anti Christ our all believers who follow religion and reject the Christ/anointing of God with in them.

Those who lost their first love. 2Th 2:11 is speaking of now, of the all the ages past, present and future who reject the anointing of Jesus (David type anointing) and replace with the anointing of Saul.

Antichrist in Bible 5 times, in four scriptures. It is not in the book of Daniel and not in the book of revelations.

Strongs #500 = anti-cristos = alterative, instead of

Doctrine of Anti Christ was in the 1st Century

John did not say there was an antichrist coming, he said you heard.

(1/2)

1John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (Notice all the plurals, (the church is teaching he)

What is driving the 22,000 doctrines of the religious realm, the spirit of the antichrist.
If you read this book very clearly Christ will rule the world, He is a reigning King now.

(3)



1John:2: 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies (literally rejects with words) that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies (literally denies with words) the Father and the Son.
23No one who denies (literally rejects with words) the Son has the (not) Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. (Before words in orange were add later)
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us--even eternal life. (The ageless life)
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. (astray or error means wondering, roaming, mental stain, wrong opinion, wrong action, deceit and fraud) all comes out of that one word. Spirit of Christ or Antichrist?
27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.
28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
29If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.


(3)
1John 4:1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets (literally religious imposters) have gone out into the world (Kosmos, orderly arrangement). 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has (is) come in the flesh is from God,
3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the (the word spirit is not in language) spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They (not he) are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the SpiritA of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only SonB into the world that we might (added later) live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning (To reconcile things for offences) sacrifice forC our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought (we are obligated) to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us (to us) of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be (not suppose to be there) KJV always has God in the future. the Savior (Deliver not savior (Gk.) Sotar) of the world (Kosmos). 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for (in) us. God is love. Whoever lives (dwells continually (Gk)in love lives in God, and God in him.

17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence (boldness) on the day (now) of judgment (Krisis) (Gk.), because in this world (Kosmos) we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect (or fulfilled love) love drives (cast) out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19We love because he first (He was the protos or prototype loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
(5)

2 John 7Many (religious imposters) deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the (imposter) deceiver and the antichrist. 8(look at your selves) Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. (look at verse 5, doctrine of love)11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

 

[Benoni]

there is must also be eternal death

Not in any Bible I ever read.