Joel believe Steve Jobs went to Heaven....for real!

[preacher4truth]

Wrong again, psychic breath. You mix apples and oranges. No one can live as they desire as a Christian. They are lead by the Lord. Where you miss the point is that you have no idea how they live in the totality of life. How long were you in seminary? Where is the church you are pastor of?

By the way, would you teach me that trick of pointing out 100% someone is saved or lost. I would like to take that act on the road and make millions.

I've missed no point, yet you've missed the entirety of everything. And by the way we do get an idea of how a person lives the totality of their lives when they are professing to being believers, yet practice a lifestyle of sin and miss the evidences of being born again as per 1 John and many other passages. Thus we are to examine ourselves whether we are called and elect, and we are also given signs of those who bear fruits of being in an unregenerate state who profess to being believers, and we are to avoid them.

If you're against this clear teaching, then you as well are preaching another gospel.

Aren't you the one that preached in here against Paul Washer claiming some in your own church could possibly be lost, and you argued that they are saved? How do you know they're saved? You don't, and Washer could be right on target. And yes, it was you who preached it.

Let me reiterate one more time -- There is no salvation and no true Gospel in telling others they can live however they want, that there needs to be no change or apparent fruit of true conversion or repentance, just say a prayer and you'll go to heaven. And this we've heard preached in several SBC's in this area. You'd be right at home with them, so it is true as I stated, these have their best interest in mind and their theology follows.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

For the record, no one can say with certainty anyone else is saved. No way, no how, no chance.

We cannot look into the heart of someone to determine whether or not he is saved. Only God can do that. The person who would confess the basic biblical doctrines of Christianity such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, justification by grace of faith, etc., is affirming the necessary elements that must be held by faith to be Christian. But that can be faked.

If someone denies that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead physically, or denies justification by grace and faith in Christ alone, and other such essential Christian doctrines and refuses to affirm biblical truth even after proper teaching, then we can safely say that such a person is not saved. Those are called "unbelievers" and we meet them every day.

Second, a person’s actions need to be examined to see if they're consistent with his profession. Let's say that someone is confessing Christ as Savior, but is openly and unrepentantly involved in an adulterous relationship. Such lack of conviction of sin, and lack of struggle against it, may be a strong indication that the person does not have the Spirit of God within him, or it could be that they are so deeply involved in the sin that they refuse to admit they are far from God. Such sin and unrepentance can just as easily be a sin of rebellion within the body of Christ as it can be an indication of being unsaved.

Making such a judgment is a dangerous thing. No one should ever pass judgment on someone who claims to be a brother and sister in Christ, because that simply is not our job. We can, however, confront them, per the passages on church discipline, in Matthew 18:15-17, and attempt to reach them for repentance and reconciliation. In fact, we must do that. But we cannot assume their behavior is indicative of lostness.

 

[webdog]

For the record, no one can say with certainty anyone else is saved. No way, no how, no chance.

We cannot look into the heart of someone to determine whether or not he is saved. Only God can do that. The person who would confess the basic biblical doctrines of Christianity such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, justification by grace of faith, etc., is affirming the necessary elements that must be held by faith to be Christian. But that can be faked.

If someone denies that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead physically, or denies justification by grace and faith in Christ alone, and other such essential Christian doctrines and refuses to affirm biblical truth even after proper teaching, then we can safely say that such a person is not saved. Those are called "unbelievers" and we meet them every day.

Second, a person’s actions need to be examined to see if they're consistent with his profession. Let's say that someone is confessing Christ as Savior, but is openly and unrepentantly involved in an adulterous relationship. Such lack of conviction of sin, and lack of struggle against it, may be a strong indication that the person does not have the Spirit of God within him, or it could be that they are so deeply involved in the sin that they refuse to admit they are far from God. Such sin and unrepentance can just as easily be a sin of rebellion within the body of Christ as it can be an indication of being unsaved.

Making such a judgment is a dangerous thing. No one should ever pass judgment on someone who claims to be a brother and sister in Christ, because that simply is not our job. We can, however, confront them, per the passages on church discipline, in Matthew 18:15-17, and attempt to reach them for repentance and reconciliation. In fact, we must do that. But we cannot assume their behavior is indicative of lostness.

Amen :thumbsup: Be prepared to be labeled carnal by puppet4T and believing in a feel good gospel by the padawan.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Amen :thumbsup: Be prepared to be labeled carnal by puppet4T and believing in a feel good gospel by the padawan.

Wouldn't be the first time. Won't be the last.

 

[annsni]

Making such a judgment is a dangerous thing. No one should ever pass judgment on someone who claims to be a brother and sister in Christ, because that simply is not our job.

Actually, Paul disagrees with you. In 1 Corinthians 5:12, he says about the case of sin in the church: " For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?"

 

[webdog]

Actually, Paul disagrees with you. In 1 Corinthians 5:12, he says about the case of sin in the church: " For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?"

That verse actually proves his point.

 

[InTheLight]

Interesting to notice that for the most part those that say no one can know the heart of Steve Jobs except God are non-Cals, whereas those that are pretty sure he's burning in hellfire are Calvinists. Ironic since Calvinists can't even claim to know they themselves are elect, yet are sure others are not. This is not the only thread where this may be observed.

[Is this enough to get this thread closed down?]

 

[sag38]

Isn't it a little late to be trying to determine the eternal status of someone who is deceased? Should we not be more concerned about the living?

 

[preacher4truth]

Interesting to notice that for the most part those that say no one can know the heart of Steve Jobs except God are non-Cals, whereas those that are pretty sure he's burning in hellfire are Calvinists.

Broad brushing yet again. Deal in truth for once? That said we also know there are evidences of regeneration, and those who reject this Scriptural fact develop to themselves a theology and Gospel of license an carnality to sooth their consciences.

Ironic since Calvinists can't even claim to know they themselves are elect, yet are sure others are not. This is not the only thread where this may be observed.

More fabrications, caricatures, straw man arguments from ITL. Calvinists do in fact understand they are elect. A recent thread proved this.

[Is this enough to get this thread closed down?]

You mean since you've taken it down a trail of tales? Sure, if it's going to go down that rabbit trail of your manufactured myths, close it. I mean, why would you want to deal truthfully now?

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually, Paul disagrees with you. In 1 Corinthians 5:12, he says about the case of sin in the church: " For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?"

Yes, exactly. Amazed at the lack of knowledge among alleged baptists. Paul also gives to us the basis as how to judge, so does John, Peter, others, as a test of genuineness both in ourselves and in others who profess, 2 Tim. 3 &c.

Not too many in the church like these tests, they would rather hold onto easy believeism and the license it gives to live a carnal lifestyle.

 

[annsni]

Interesting to notice that for the most part those that say no one can know the heart of Steve Jobs except God are non-Cals, whereas those that are pretty sure he's burning in hellfire are Calvinists. Ironic since Calvinists can't even claim to know they themselves are elect, yet are sure others are not. This is not the only thread where this may be observed.

[Is this enough to get this thread closed down?]

Why can we not know that we are elect? The Bible says that we can KNOW that we are saved.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Actually, Paul disagrees with you. In 1 Corinthians 5:12, he says about the case of sin in the church: " For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?"

Actually, he doesn't disagree with me at all. You conveniently left out the context of the passage, which starts in v. 2.

1 Corinthians 5, NASB
2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[Emphasis added]​

Note that Paul does not make a judgment that this man is unsaved. In fact, he turns him over "to Satan for the destruction of his flesh" so his soul may be preserved in the day of judgment! Then he goes on.

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?​

Now, how can he be preaching here that this man is part of the body -- as indicated by his behavior being called "leaven" among the believers -- and then later determine, according to your lifting of the verse out of context, that he is not? Answer: He doesn't.

7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;​

Note, he said "immoral" not "unsaved." This is the Greek word pornos, a form of the word porneia which means "adultery" or "sexual immorality" but also carries the connotation of idolatry -- that is, putting a thing between one's self and God. One cannot put something between one's self and God without at least acknowledging God, and I've already shown that this man is in the body of Christ.

10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders ? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.​

Further note that, while "so-called" could be apparent to some, it is actually a bad translation by the NASB. The word is onomazo, meaning "to bear the name" or to "mention" the name, that is, of God -- as a brother in Christ.

Nope, this passage doesn't disagree with me. It reinforces what I said.

 

[InTheLight]

Why can we not know that we are elect? The Bible says that we can KNOW that we are saved.

It's been my experience that Calvinists will not declare themselves to be elect since only God can know that, hence their doctrine of "Perseverance".

I once asked the pastor of a Calvinist Baptist church I once attended this exact question and he dodged it by saying, "Puritans did not believe that they could know they were saved until they died."

On this board, Winman makes a point out of asking Calvinists if they are elect and most of the time they decline to answer or say they don't know for sure.

 

[annsni]

It's been my experience that Calvinists will not declare themselves to be elect since only God can know that, hence their doctrine of "Perseverance".

I once asked the pastor of a Calvinist Baptist church I once attended this exact question and he dodged it by saying, "Puritans did not believe that they could know they were saved until they died."

On this board, Winman makes a point out of asking Calvinists if they are elect and most of the time they decline to answer or say they don't know for sure.

Interesting. I know MANY "Calvinists" and every one of them will tell you that they are absolutely saved, myself included!

 

[InTheLight]

Interesting. I know MANY "Calvinists" and every one of them will tell you that they are absolutely saved, myself included!

OK, putting you down as the only exception I have personally encountered. (And yes, I know the problems with anecdotal evidence.)

 

[webdog]

Interesting. I know MANY "Calvinists" and every one of them will tell you that they are absolutely saved, myself included!

...yet if you hold to unconditional election and limited atonement, there can be no concrete assurance.

 

[quantumfaith]

For the record, no one can say with certainty anyone else is saved. No way, no how, no chance.

We cannot look into the heart of someone to determine whether or not he is saved. Only God can do that. The person who would confess the basic biblical doctrines of Christianity such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, justification by grace of faith, etc., is affirming the necessary elements that must be held by faith to be Christian. But that can be faked.

If someone denies that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead physically, or denies justification by grace and faith in Christ alone, and other such essential Christian doctrines and refuses to affirm biblical truth even after proper teaching, then we can safely say that such a person is not saved. Those are called "unbelievers" and we meet them every day.

Second, a person’s actions need to be examined to see if they're consistent with his profession. Let's say that someone is confessing Christ as Savior, but is openly and unrepentantly involved in an adulterous relationship. Such lack of conviction of sin, and lack of struggle against it, may be a strong indication that the person does not have the Spirit of God within him, or it could be that they are so deeply involved in the sin that they refuse to admit they are far from God. Such sin and unrepentance can just as easily be a sin of rebellion within the body of Christ as it can be an indication of being unsaved.

Making such a judgment is a dangerous thing. No one should ever pass judgment on someone who claims to be a brother and sister in Christ, because that simply is not our job. We can, however, confront them, per the passages on church discipline, in Matthew 18:15-17, and attempt to reach them for repentance and reconciliation. In fact, we must do that. But we cannot assume their behavior is indicative of lostness.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

Interesting to notice that for the most part those that say no one can know the heart of Steve Jobs except God are non-Cals, whereas those that are pretty sure he's burning in hellfire are Calvinists. Ironic since Calvinists can't even claim to know they themselves are elect, yet are sure others are not. This is not the only thread where this may be observed.

[Is this enough to get this thread closed down?]

Yes, and the "heat" that comes from my "brothers" (some) on the "other side of the aisle" is that they have conflated the principle that we "don't know" ones status, and equivocated it with somehow attempting to make the claim that we (some) espouse that one is in the presence of God. (Steve) From this, they(some) want to pontificate and make everyone aware of their perceived superiority on the matter.

 

[Yeshua1]

been avoiding this thread because I thought everyone would be all in agreement that Jobs is likely in hell because of this and that and the other except anything that agrees with Scriptures like the book of life being written FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD which means all names of everyone of God's people who will ever exist in this plane called time are already in the book regardless of their chronological existence and geographical situations or social/cultural/theological/creedal circumstances, and their names were not written as each individual made a profession of faith, or repented, or accepted Christ.

surprised to see webdog, and I say this with respect, proferring a completely scriptural approach.

is jobs in heaven ? we don't know. is he in hell ? we don't know.
to insist on either is presumptuous (sp?).

IF a peron refuses to ackwoledge that Jesus is their Saviour and Lord, they refuse to receive HIm as the Messiah, isn't that per the Bible the "proof" is not saved?

 

[annsni]

...yet if you hold to unconditional election and limited atonement, there can be no concrete assurance.

Sure there can be! 1 John 5 speaks of how we can KNOW.