Joel believe Steve Jobs went to Heaven....for real!

[Yeshua1]

Here's the issue. Many have been conditioned to believe they can live any way they desire, so long as they've said a prayer in the past and got their ticket to heaven. Thus they have their best interest in mind, and their theology follows.

God can save a sinner at that moment of receiving Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, but one who has been really saved will have far more evidence to support that happening then just "walked to front in Billy graham Crusade!"

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, I could say those who refused Jesus will split hell wide open. Actually, Jesus chose them, they did not choose Him. However, in this case, you do not know that either person "refused" Jesus Christ. Your information, filtered through your flawed, human mind, comes from an even more flawed news media.

agree with you that in the end, God alone knows if anyone else is saved , but also can know that we are saved, per the Apostle John, and also do know if another is not if they have rejected Jesus Christ!

just saying Steve Jobs saying "wow/wow/wow" does not sound like one saying Lord Jesus save me now!

 

[Yeshua1]

For the record, no one can say with certainty anyone else is saved. No way, no how, no chance.

We cannot look into the heart of someone to determine whether or not he is saved. Only God can do that. The person who would confess the basic biblical doctrines of Christianity such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, justification by grace of faith, etc., is affirming the necessary elements that must be held by faith to be Christian. But that can be faked.

If someone denies that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead physically, or denies justification by grace and faith in Christ alone, and other such essential Christian doctrines and refuses to affirm biblical truth even after proper teaching, then we can safely say that such a person is not saved. Those are called "unbelievers" and we meet them every day.

Second, a person’s actions need to be examined to see if they're consistent with his profession. Let's say that someone is confessing Christ as Savior, but is openly and unrepentantly involved in an adulterous relationship. Such lack of conviction of sin, and lack of struggle against it, may be a strong indication that the person does not have the Spirit of God within him, or it could be that they are so deeply involved in the sin that they refuse to admit they are far from God. Such sin and unrepentance can just as easily be a sin of rebellion within the body of Christ as it can be an indication of being unsaved.

Making such a judgment is a dangerous thing. No one should ever pass judgment on someone who claims to be a brother and sister in Christ, because that simply is not our job. We can, however, confront them, per the passages on church discipline, in Matthew 18:15-17, and attempt to reach them for repentance and reconciliation. In fact, we must do that. But we cannot assume their behavior is indicative of lostness.

Agree with all stated here, but just see the bible being quite clear that by their fruits we shall know them, so any person denying Jesus and His resurrection, death for their sins etc would be "judged" by the Bible as being still lost in their sins!

Alaso, even though holding to OSAS, would also say that just a profession of faith in jesus not sufficient, also need some fruit of salvation to go with that!

 

[webdog]

Agree with all stated here, but just see the bible being quite clear that by their fruits we shall know them, so any person denying Jesus and His resurrection, death for their sins etc would be "judged" by the Bible as being still lost in their sins!

Alaso, even though holding to OSAS, would also say that just a profession of faith in jesus not sufficient, also need some fruit of salvation to go with that!

You make the mistake of taking the converse of an absolute truth statement and also applying it as absolute truth.

Example:
Given truth - Everyone that is saved likes chicken.
Your conclusion based on this truth is if they don't eat chicken they are lost, or if someone eats chicken they are saved, when that is not a truthful statement given the information provided.

 

[Yeshua1]

It's been my experience that Calvinists will not declare themselves to be elect since only God can know that, hence their doctrine of "Perseverance".

I once asked the pastor of a Calvinist Baptist church I once attended this exact question and he dodged it by saying, "Puritans did not believe that they could know they were saved until they died."

On this board, Winman makes a point out of asking Calvinists if they are elect and most of the time they decline to answer or say they don't know for sure.

Who are these so called calvinists though? ALL the ones here, myself included, can and would say that we one of the elctbase upon what the Bible states, and that our lives, while not nearly as matured as God intends for us to become, does show some fruit to evidence have been really saved!

I canno imagine living as a Child of God, doing my best, and yet NEVER havig assurance that I will get to heaven to see the lord, that he might view me and say 'close/tried hard, just not good enough!"

 

[Yeshua1]

Sure there can be! 1 John 5 speaks of how we can KNOW.

actually, a calvinist atonement view of "definite/particular " death of jesus for sins would mean that since He saved me, would know for sure, as he paid for MY specific sin debt to God!

 

[preacher4truth]

Who are these so called calvinists though? ALL the ones here, myself included, can and would say that we one of the elctbase upon what the Bible states, and that our lives, while not nearly as matured as God intends for us to become, does show some fruit to evidence have been really saved!

I canno imagine living as a Child of God, doing my best, and yet NEVER havig assurance that I will get to heaven to see the lord, that he might view me and say 'close/tried hard, just not good enough!"

Exactly. And we also have evidences in Scripture of those professing to be believers that they are in fact apostate and lost.

 

[Yeshua1]

You make the mistake of taking the converse of an absolute truth statement and also applying it as absolute truth.

Example:
Given truth - Everyone that is saved likes chicken.
Your conclusion based on this truth is if they don't eat chicken they are lost, or if someone eats chicken they are saved, when that is not a truthful statement given the information provided.

The Apostles though all stated in the bible that if one says we know Jesus as Lord and their saviour, and yet have no woords/fruit to evidence that, they would be professing "false faith" as even satan and demonsknow He is Lord!

 

[HungryInherit]

This website should be changed to calvinistboard.com

 

[webdog]

The Apostles though all stated in the bible that if one says we know Jesus as Lord and their saviour, and yet have no woords/fruit to evidence that, they would be professing "false faith" as even satan and demonsknow He is Lord!

What kind of fruit were they exhibiting at Corinth?

 

[preacher4truth]

Thus 2 Corinthians 13:5.

 

[saturneptune]

I've missed no point, yet you've missed the entirety of everything. And by the way we do get an idea of how a person lives the totality of their lives when they are professing to being believers, yet practice a lifestyle of sin and miss the evidences of being born again as per 1 John and many other passages. Thus we are to examine ourselves whether we are called and elect, and we are also given signs of those who bear fruits of being in an unregenerate state who profess to being believers, and we are to avoid them.

If you're against this clear teaching, then you as well are preaching another gospel.

Aren't you the one that preached in here against Paul Washer claiming some in your own church could possibly be lost, and you argued that they are saved? How do you know they're saved? You don't, and Washer could be right on target. And yes, it was you who preached it.

Let me reiterate one more time -- There is no salvation and no true Gospel in telling others they can live however they want, that there needs to be no change or apparent fruit of true conversion or repentance, just say a prayer and you'll go to heaven. And this we've heard preached in several SBC's in this area. You'd be right at home with them, so it is true as I stated, these have their best interest in mind and their theology follows.

You do not have the moral authority to tell anyone they missed the point about the Gospel, given the history of your posts. Someone wasted a lot of tuition money if you went to seminary. I understand 1st John light years ahead of you, and the point is, he wrote this book that we might have assurance of our salvation. He did not say that you have assurance of my salvation. You are not living in my body (praise the Lord) and do not know mine or anyone else's true motives and thoughts. Yes, we are to examine ourselves. That does not mean you examine me or I examine you. Anyhow, that is in the context of the Lord's Supper, and let me guess, you are for closed communion.

I do not preach another Gospel, which by the way is capitalized. That is nothing but disrespect for the Scripture to put out a small "g." Since you have never seen Paul Washer preach, you did not see the destruction he brought. Yes, I do not know for 100% that these folks are saved, but I have known them for decades and do watch their lives outside of church in passing. Yes, it was me that said it. I do not preach because I am not a preacher, which should be your status.

Let me reiterate one more time, I have never said anyone could live as they like. You are the one who sets a standard of perfection in this life. If you have read the Bible and understand it, you would know we will never reach that state in this life. That is not the meaning of a new creation. It means we have changed and become more like Jesus everyday. You are stating a false conclusion when you said I do not expect a change. Yet, I do not expect glorification in this life, nor do I expect a time limit.

The SBC is not perfect, but it is sound in doctrine, which is way above your level. IMO, there is no way you are an ordained pastor of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Baptist denomination. Any sound local Baptist church would have you gone after one called business meeting. Your posts and theology are pathetic. You thrive on meanness, name calling, and troll type tactics.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I have to say, I find it amusing to find Calvinists insisting they are to "examine themselves" for salvation.

If they are "elect," then according to the teaching of their doctrine, then they have nothing to worry about.

On the other hand, if they were to examine themselves and find the disturbing truth that they are "not elect," what can they do about it?

 

[saturneptune]

I have to say, I find it amusing to find Calvinists insisting they are to "examine themselves" for salvation.

If they are "elect," then according to the teaching of their doctrine, then they have nothing to worry about.

On the other hand, if they were to examine themselves and find the disturbing truth that they are "not elect," what can they do about it?

I believe that passage, as I said in the above post, to be in relation to a period of time before the Lords Supper. I do not like the label Calvinist, but do believe God is sovereign, and everything I have, my salvation, my family, in fact, every breath I take, is a gift from the Lord.

 

[preacher4truth]

You do not have the moral authority to tell anyone they missed the point about the Gospel, given the history of your posts. Someone wasted a lot of tuition money if you went to seminary.

OK...

I understand 1st John light years ahead of you, and the point is, he wrote this book that we might have assurance of our salvation. He did not say that you have assurance of my salvation.

I'm not calling anyone's salvation into question. Including yours. I am glad you are light years ahead of me in 1 John. Lead the way and show by example that you are brother. However I do know there are evidences for being lost AND being saved. That is totally Biblical.

You are not living in my body (praise the Lord) and do not know mine or anyone else's true motives and thoughts.

Well thank God for that, I'd hate to have to lug you around too. But, I'd give the 'towel' back if I were living in your body out of common sense, examination and repentance.

Yes, we are to examine ourselves. That does not mean you examine me or I examine you.

See above. You say this while examining me...interesting...hypocritical

Anyhow, that is in the context of the Lord's Supper, and let me guess, you are for closed communion.

It's not only in that context that we are to examine ourselves. ANd you're light years ahead of me?

I do not preach another Gospel

If you preach no evidence, or say none can know, but that you in fact DO know who is saved, then you in fact do.

which by the way is capitalized.

Only when true Gospel is preached. Thus...

That is nothing but disrespect for the Scripture to put out a small "g."

No, it is disrespect and repudiation of a false gospel.

Since you have never seen Paul Washer preach, you did not see the destruction he brought.

I don't need to see that. I saw your hypocrisy. You in one breath say no one can know, but then in past history you claim YOU can and DO know.

Yes, I do not know for 100% that these folks are saved

OK. And I've seen some for decades too. I see, you CAN know but others CANNOT know. You have the monopoly on this knowledge. You shold have ran to Washer and told him who was saved and who wasn't saved before he preached, the whole thing could've then been cancelled.

but I have known them for decades and do watch their lives outside of church in passing. Yes, it was me that said it. I do not preach because I am not a preacher, which should be your status.

Nope. You don't know either the totality of their lives nor their 'heart'. You trying to play both sides.

Let me reiterate one more time, I have never said anyone could live as they like. You are the one who sets a standard of perfection in this life. If you have read the Bible and understand it, you would know we will never reach that state in this life. That is not the meaning of a new creation. It means we have changed and become more like Jesus everyday. You are stating a false conclusion when you said I do not expect a change. Yet, I do not expect glorification in this life, nor do I expect a time limit.

I never said you did say such a thing. I am against those who say no change is necessary.

The SBC is not perfect, but it is sound in doctrine,

No, the SBC is not sound in doctrine.

which is way above your level.

You're still examining me.

IMO, there is no way you are an ordained pastor of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Baptist denomination. Any sound local Baptist church would have you gone after one called business meeting. Your posts and theology are pathetic. You thrive on meanness, name calling, and troll type tactics.

You're still at it and I can read between your lines, and your judgment is amiss. I will fight false teachings and false doctrine. If that is meanness and name calling to you that is too bad. If I've offended you, I apologize, specifically for what is not clear as this is all broad brushed insult, but that said I do wish to put these things aside and move forward because I know that this is right.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have to say, I find it amusing to find Calvinists insisting they are to "examine themselves" for salvation.

Examination is Biblical. Whitefield examined himself after bearing much fruit. Scripture is against presumption.

If they are "elect," then according to the teaching of their doctrine, then they have nothing to worry about.

Yet the elect do examine themselves and due to mourning for their own sin go through the throes of both times of doubt and assurance.

On the other hand, if they were to examine themselves and find the disturbing truth that they are "not elect," what can they do about it?

Plead to God for mercy and assurance as many have done in their journey this side of the sun.

 

[saturneptune]

You're still at it and I can read between your lines, and your judgment is amiss. I will fight false teachings and false doctrine. If that is meanness and name calling to you that is too bad. If I've offended you, I apologize, specifically for what is not clear as this is all broad brushed insult, but that said I do wish to put these things aside and move forward because I know that this is right.

No, what is too bad is that you lead a flock of a local church that depends on you for discipleship. Speaking of two faced and hypocritical, if you talked to your congregation the way you post, you would be out the door within a week of any true New Testament church.

 

[InTheLight]

You do not have the moral authority to tell anyone they missed the point about the Gospel, given the history of your posts. Someone wasted a lot of tuition money if you went to seminary. I understand 1st John light years ahead of you, and the point is, he wrote this book that we might have assurance of our salvation. He did not say that you have assurance of my salvation. You are not living in my body (praise the Lord) and do not know mine or anyone else's true motives and thoughts.

I do not preach because I am not a preacher, which should be your status.

IMO, there is no way you are an ordained pastor of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Baptist denomination. Any sound local Baptist church would have you gone after one called business meeting. Your posts and theology are pathetic. You thrive on meanness, name calling, and troll type tactics.

Smackdown Level 10 of 10.

There is no salvation and no true Gospel in telling others they can live however they want, that there needs to be no change or apparent fruit of true conversion or repentance, just say a prayer and you'll go to heaven.

From another post:
Broad brushing yet again. Deal in truth for once? More fabrications, caricatures, straw man arguments from P4T. If it's going to go down that rabbit trail of your manufactured myths, close it. I mean, why would you want to deal truthfully now?

 

[InTheLight]

No, what is too bad is that you lead a flock of a local church that depends on you for discipleship. Speaking of two faced and hypocritical, if you talked to your congregation the way you post, you would be out the door within a week of any true New Testament church.

At the very least he would be on Ignore.

 

[preacher4truth]

Smackdown Level 10 of 10.



From another post:
Broad brushing yet again. Deal in truth for once? More fabrications, caricatures, straw man arguments from P4T. If it's going to go down that rabbit trail of your manufactured myths, close it. I mean, why would you want to deal truthfully now?

the above is not from me, but edited to appear as if it were from me.