John 12:32 in context

[MB]

I have read the whole passage, you clearly have not or at least are not being honest about what it actually says. And about drawing only the chosen how about John 6:44?

John 6:37-40
John 17:2
John 17:9
Acts 2:39
Romans 8:28-30 (Golden Chain of Salvation)
Romans 9
Ephesians 1:4-6
1 Thess. 1:4

I could keep going but you get the idea by this point if you are honest about the texts.

The bible never says God only draws the chosen because all are chosen when He died for the sins of the world. Being chosen does not mean we will be saved no matter what. Other wise being chosen would be in effect Salvation and we would not be born in sin. We would be born saved.. This is the insanity of Calvinism. It's the doctrine of men. My advice; drop the Calvinism for the doctrine of Christ. The way you are now you are just plain confused
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

As I said, your posts are just more of the same obfuscation

Prove it.

For example, now "men of flesh" means "regenerate men of flesh." I kid you not, that is the claim. The opposite of its actual meaning.

Prove it, in context.

 

[Reformed1689]

The bible never says God only draws the chosen because all are chosen when He died for the sins of the world.

Did you even read the passages I posted?

Being chosen does not mean we will be saved no matter what.

Again, did you read the passages I posted?

Other wise being chosen would be in effect Salvation and we would not be born in sin. We would be born saved.. This is the insanity of Calvinism.

That is not at all what that would mean.

 

[MB]

Gonna call you out on this one. That simply is a false statement. I have refuted you repeatedly and you haven't even engaged my arguments.

Only in your dreams David .Your boasting is your down fall A claim of victory would only be true if you in effect changed my mind and you haven't.
What is it you think you have proved. That the Bible is wrong and you are right Jn.12:32 still says Christ draws all. All is all inclusive just as I said from the beginning.
MB

 

[Van]

Prove it.
Prove it, in context.

Prove it to you? Surely you jest.

 

[Reformed1689]

Your boasting is your down fall A claim of victory would only be true if you in effect changed my mind and you haven't.

That is a statement of arrogance. I am only right if I convince you? We know that people will be blind to the truth 2 Timothy 4. You have not engaged with what I have said and now you personally attack me saying that I am boasting. I think you need to look up what that word means.

That the Bible is wrong and you are right Jn.12:32 still says Christ draws all.

I have never said the Bible was wrong. And yes, the verse itself says Christ draws all. I have never disputed that. What I have disputed that is your flawed interpretation you arrive at by taking that verse out of context.

Prove it to you? Surely you jest.

Can you not prove it?

 

[Van]

Can you not prove it? Take the case of a person of integrity, candor and intelligence. Can I prove men of flesh understand spiritual milk? Yes, just read 1 Corinthians 3:1. But could it be proved to someone else denying the verse means what it says, and claiming it means the opposite? That would be a tough row to hoe.

 

[37818]

Draw and call are not the same thing.

Of course they are not the same. Are you arguing only some of the "all" are "called?" (Which only a few are chosen.)

 

[Reformed1689]

Can you not prove it? Take the case of a person of integrity, candor and intelligence. Can I prove men of flesh understand spiritual milk? Yes, just read 1 Corinthians 3:1. But could it be proved to someone else denying the verse means what it says, and claiming it means the opposite? That would be a tough row to hoe.

I didn't just say prove it. I said prove it in context. I know that is a pesky little detail for some people here because they can't seem to do that.

Of course they are not the same. Are you arguing only some of the "all" are "called?" (Which only a few are chosen.)

No. Everyone receives the general call. But only a few are called and drawn by the Father Himself. Those are the chosen.

 

[tyndale1946]

Of course they are not the same. Are you arguing only some of the "all" are "called?" (Which only a few are chosen.)

That's absurd!... Only sinful men limit the election of God!... Brother Glen

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

[37818]

No. Everyone receives the general call. But only a few are called and drawn by the Father Himself. Those are the chosen.

Ok, then how does that work in your understanding "will draw all" (John 12:32) against "If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him;" (John 11:48)?

 

[37818]

That's absurd!... Only sinful men limit the election of God!... Brother Glen

<snip>

Romans 3:23.

 

[Reformed1689]

Ok, then how does that work in your understanding "will draw all" (John 12:32) against "If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him;" (John 11:48)?

Again, context.

 

[MB]

I didn't just say prove it. I said prove it in context. I know that is a pesky little detail for some people here because they can't seem to do that.



No. Everyone receives the general call. But only a few are called and drawn by the Father Himself. Those are the chosen.

Show scripture for you opinion. There is none. So where do you get that from? You get it from the false doctrine of Calvinism The Bible does not say only some will be drawn or chosen.Even this below according to you is not in context unless I post the whole Bible But John says.
in JN 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God..
Take scripture for what it says or don't.
You have no proof only some are chosen or drawn.
MB

 

[MB]

Again, context.

Is this the only word you know. I think your context plea is nonsense sense you have a Bible look it up. You haven't proved anything yet. You just scream foul, because you are unable to prove your own doctrine.
MB

 

[MB]

I have read the whole passage, you clearly have not or at least are not being honest about what it actually says. And about drawing only the chosen how about John 6:44?

John 6:37-40
John 17:2
John 17:9
Acts 2:39
Romans 8:28-30 (Golden Chain of Salvation)
Romans 9
Ephesians 1:4-6
1 Thess. 1:4

I could keep going but you get the idea by this point if you are honest about the texts.

Oh no you don't context please. None of this backs up your claims.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Show scripture for you opinion. There is none.

This proves you aren't actually reading my posts.

You get it from the false doctrine of Calvinism The Bible does not say only some will be drawn or chosen.Even this below according to you is not in context unless I post the whole Bible But John says.
in JN 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God..
Take scripture for what it says or don't.
You have no proof only some are chosen or drawn.
MB

Does the world always mean every person? No it does not. Want me to prove it? Ok. The Super Bowl is on TV and the commentator says "The eyes of the whole world are on this moment." Does that mean that literally every person is watching the game? Nope.

Is this the only word you know. I think your context plea is nonsense sense you have a Bible look it up. You haven't proved anything yet. You just scream foul, because you are unable to prove your own doctrine.
MB

Apparently you don't understand the importance of context. Let me ask you a question, though I doubt you will even engage it. What is the meaning of Matthew 7:1?

 

[37818]

Again, context.

The context does not change "all" with John 12:32-33 in regards to John 11:48 & John 11:53.

 

[Reformed1689]

The context does not change "all" with John 12:32-33 in regards to John 11:48 & John 11:53.

Of course it does. Who is doing the talking there in John 11? Not to mention the word All is not even in those verses and it talks about people groups specifically.

 

[Dave G]

As I said, your posts are just more of the same obfuscation I get from others holding the same viewpoint.

I'd like to step in for Mr. Taylor for a moment...
Obfuscation from your point of view, I'll grant that, sir.

Then of course we have the deflection concerning the metaphorical meaning of draw (the Greek word in John 12:32):
"2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)"

"Then of course we have the deflection concerning the metaphorical meaning of draw"

The what? "deflection"?
Admittedly, I had to change my mental association mode from physics / ballistics to conversational "deflection" in order to get where you're coming from...but now I understand what you're saying..."avoiding the point of".

"Metaphorical meaning of draw"?
What's metaphorical about the word, "draw"?

Draw means "to attract".
The Koine Greek in John 6:44 is the word, "ἑλκύσῃ" , which is transliterated as " helkó" or " elkusē", which literally means to "drag".

Strong's Greek: 1670. ἑλκύω (helkó) -- to drag

So I have no idea where you're getting your information, except outside of anything biblically associative.

I also notice that you are referencing Plato, Phaedra ( a Greek tragedy based on mythology ), Aelian ( Claudius Aelianus, a Roman teacher of rhetoric, ca. 175-235 A.D. ), false Scripture like Maccabees, Vergil ( Virgil, or Publius Vergilius Maro, ancient Roman poet ) and the only "Cf. Meyer" that I know of was Conrad Ferdinand Meyer, a Swiss poet...none of which ever professed Christ or had anything to do with Scriptural teaching...They were all secular teachers of man-made philosophy.

Question:

Am I reading the above correctly?

If so, my next question is this...
Are you a born-again believer in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God?
If so, how is it that you seem to value an unbeliever's explanations of concepts about the Bible?

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all

Not even the Greek says that.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh6.pdf
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh12.pdf