John 3:16 Study

[Van]

So no one comes unless drawn by the Father but they aren't really drawn supernaturally by the Father but just by the proper presentation of the qualities of God and yet somehow the whole thing is predetermined? You really ought to publish this stuff.

Yet another taint so post, but with no alternate position supported.
Are you aware the bible teaches God draws by His demonstration of lovingkindness? You did not mention that fact. And what about the Gospel being the "power of God for salvation?" (Romans 1:16)
Did I say those drawn were "predetermined?" You really should stick to the truth. What has been predetermined is no one comes to Christ unless first "drawn" (attracted) by the Father.

Here is the interpretative translation of John 3:16:
God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Van]

Here is what @Van stated in another thread:
"the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them"

It's just patently wrong.

Here is yet another "taint so" post but no mention of any actual support. See 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and then ask if God chooses individuals through credited or uncredited faith in the truth. Thus the statement is biblical irrefutable.

"the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them"

 

[JD731]

So no one comes unless drawn by the Father but they aren't really drawn supernaturally by the Father but just by the proper presentation of the qualities of God and yet somehow the whole thing is predetermined? You really ought to publish this stuff.

Here is what @Van stated in another thread:
"the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them"

It's just patently wrong.

Here are a few bible truths that will help you fellows, but you will need to believe it.

1) Gentiles are the object of God's purpose in salvation beginning in Acts 10 in the year 40 AD.
2) Gentiles are never said to be "lost" because that assumes they were God's at some point.
3) The gospel of the "grace" of God is intimately associated with gentiles and the nations
4) This gospel is called in scripture - "THE GOSPEL OF GOD."
5) The Gospel of God is the theme of this entire church age beginning with the open door of faith to gentile nations, and that theme appears in the very first line of the first epistle in the canon of scripture ever written to gentiles, the epistle to the Romans.
6) The gospel of God is one and the same with the gospel of the grace of God.
7) It was the gospel that was given particularly to the apostle Paul.
8) Paul (who was Saul) was converted in 37 AD in an encounter with Jesus Christ.
9) This was after the national rejection of the Holy Ghost by the Jewish rulers in Acts 7 and is God's subsequent response to it.
10) Paul calls the inclusion of the gentiles into the church, "the dispensation of the grace of God in Eph 2:2
11) He says it is the revelation of God of a hidden mystery in the eternal counsel of God. Eph 3:3-5
12) The mystery and the reason for the dispensation is clearly defined in Eph 3:6
13) The meaning of dispensation is narrowly defined as an exemption of a rule or usual requirement
14) A broader meaning is; A system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc, especially as existing at a particular time
15) The exemption of this dispensation is stated succinctly in Ep 2:15 and described as being the ordinances given under the law to the Jews
16) The reason given for the dispensation is given in Eph 2:15b and Eph 2:16
17) The timing or beginning of the dispensation is in Acts 10 when God exempted the dietary laws for the Jews just before sending Peter to the gentiles with the gospel.
18) The ending of the dispensation will be at the dawning of the "Day of the Lord."
19) Paul says he is the "apostle to the gentiles." Rom 11:13;1 Ti 2:7; 2 Ti 2:11; Eph 3:1.
11) He explains why there must be a dispensation of grace for gentiles in Eph 2:11-13.
12) It is because, unlike the Jews, there was no promise of salvation made to them but God is making them "partakers" of Jewish spiritual blessings and promises.
13) This partaking is to be made one with the Jews and Christ in the body he is forming called the church.
14) The blessings are the forgiveness of sins in Christ and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here is an apostolic proclamation concerning the salvation of gentiles during this age that cannot be ignored.

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first (in Acts 10) did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Here is a nutshell definition of the "gospel of God."

Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

The mystery here is the same mystery of Christ that is defined in Eph 3:6 as the Jews and gentiles accepted by God as equal and as one in the body of Christ and as the two people groups making up the body of Christ.

Anyone who is obedient to God by believing the gospel of Christ is put into this body by the Spirit of God.

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

That day mentioned here is "The Day of the Lord."

I have more good news about the "gospel of God" and I might give it out later.

 

[DaveXR650]

I see a post claiming that if we pray for someone to be saved, we are acknowledging that they must be supernaturally "enabled" by God to allow their salvation. Utter nonsense.

Many believers have prayed that God would give them the opportunity and words to plainly convey the gospel to the lost. We know no one comes to put their faith and devotion in Christ unless drawn (attracted) by the Father, but we see that action being accomplished by presenting the lovingkindness of God, dying for us on that old rugged cross, as the Father's predetermined plan drawing those who behold Christ high and lifted up.

God does do those things you described above. He also warns people from the warnings in the law, from circumstances and events in life, from providentially putting people in a persons life that may help - and from changing the disposition of the person because naturally these things will appear unattractive or foolish. All those are used.

And if God does something I take it he has determined before the time of doing it that He was going to do it. If so it was predetermined and WOULD occur at the right time. If you don't want to say God determines every detail of everything that is arguable but to say that He doesn't even predetermine what He wants to do is just plain stupid. Or as you say, "Utter nonsense".

 

[Van]

God does do those things you described above. He also warns people from the warnings in the law, from circumstances and events in life, from providentially putting people in a persons life that may help - and from changing the disposition of the person because naturally these things will appear unattractive or foolish. All those are used.

And if God does something I take it he has determined before the time of doing it that He was going to do it. If so it was predetermined and WOULD occur at the right time. If you don't want to say God determines every detail of everything that is arguable but to say that He doesn't even predetermine what He wants to do is just plain stupid. Or as you say, "Utter nonsense".

Proclaiming views without offering biblical support does not move the ball.

What verse says God is "changing the disposition of a person (enabling them supernaturally) because they naturally (unless enabled) will reject the gospel? For example in Matthew 13, we see soils #2, 3, and 4 all accepting the gospel to a degree.

Exhaustive determinism is unbiblical nonsense, as the bible refers to things happening by chance. Did I say God does not "predetermine what He wants to accomplish?" Nope. We know for example when God declares something will happen in the future, God will make that something happen. Christ was put to death by God's predetermined plan formulated beforehand.

No need to attribute to me unbiblical doctrines, but there is a need for both of us to support our views from scripture.

 

[DaveXR650]

Exhaustive determinism is unbiblical nonsense, as the bible refers to things happening by chance. Did I say God does not "predetermine what He wants to accomplish?" Nope. We know for example when God declares something will happen in the future, God will make that something happen

People can read for themselves but you did clearly contradict yourself above by saying that God does something then turn around and say He didn't predetermine the result. I don't care about exhaustive determinism myself so argue that with someone else.

What verse says God is "changing the disposition of a person (enabling them supernaturally) because they naturally (unless enabled) will reject the gospel? For example in Matthew 13, we see soils #2, 3, and 4 all accepting the gospel to a degree.

1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2 clearly teach the above as well as the inability of the natural mind to understand these things. Depending on how you choose to writhe out of this if you actually read those chapters you can either go with the Holy Spirit creating a change in peoples minds who receive the gospel or you may go with the high-Calvinists who say it was done long ago.

Thanks for bringing up Matthew 13. Matthew 13:14 is a very powerful and direct statement that God is completely in charge of whether people understand the word.

 

[Van]

People can read for themselves but you did clearly contradict yourself above by saying that God does something then turn around and say He didn't predetermine the result. I don't care about exhaustive determinism myself so argue that with someone else.

A material false statement, with no quote.
Here is what I actually said: "Did I say God does not "predetermine what He wants to accomplish?" Nope. We know for example when God declares something will happen in the future, God will make that something happen. Christ was put to death by God's predetermined plan formulated beforehand."

1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2 clearly teach the above as well as the inability of the natural mind to understand these things. Depending on how you choose to writhe out of this if you actually read those chapters you can either go with the Holy Spirit creating a change in peoples minds who receive the gospel or you may go with the high-Calvinists who say it was done long ago.

Another material false statement. Matthew 13 has lost people receiving the gospel with joy. Therefore they understood it and did not reject it or consider it foolish.

Thanks for bringing up Matthew 13. Matthew 13:14 is a very powerful and direct statement that God is completely in charge of whether people understand the word.

Matthew 13:14 proves my point and demonstrates your view is bogus! Jesus had to speak in parables to avoid the lost from understanding and being healed. Just read Matthew 13:13-17!!

 

[AustinC]

Here are a few bible truths that will help you fellows, but you will need to believe it.

1) Gentiles are the object of God's purpose in salvation beginning in Acts 10 in the year 40 AD.
2) Gentiles are never said to be "lost" because that assumes they were God's at some point.
3) The gospel of the "grace" of God is intimately associated with gentiles and the nations
4) This gospel is called in scripture - "THE GOSPEL OF GOD."
5) The Gospel of God is the theme of this entire church age beginning with the open door of faith to gentile nations, and that theme appears in the very first line of the first epistle in the canon of scripture ever written to gentiles, the epistle to the Romans.
6) The gospel of God is one and the same with the gospel of the grace of God.
7) It was the gospel that was given particularly to the apostle Paul.
8) Paul (who was Saul) was converted in 37 AD in an encounter with Jesus Christ.
9) This was after the national rejection of the Holy Ghost by the Jewish rulers in Acts 7 and is God's subsequent response to it.
10) Paul calls the inclusion of the gentiles into the church, "the dispensation of the grace of God in Eph 2:2
11) He says it is the revelation of God of a hidden mystery in the eternal counsel of God. Eph 3:3-5
12) The mystery and the reason for the dispensation is clearly defined in Eph 3:6
13) The meaning of dispensation is narrowly defined as an exemption of a rule or usual requirement
14) A broader meaning is; A system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc, especially as existing at a particular time
15) The exemption of this dispensation is stated succinctly in Ep 2:15 and described as being the ordinances given under the law to the Jews
16) The reason given for the dispensation is given in Eph 2:15b and Eph 2:16
17) The timing or beginning of the dispensation is in Acts 10 when God exempted the dietary laws for the Jews just before sending Peter to the gentiles with the gospel.
18) The ending of the dispensation will be at the dawning of the "Day of the Lord."
19) Paul says he is the "apostle to the gentiles." Rom 11:13;1 Ti 2:7; 2 Ti 2:11; Eph 3:1.
11) He explains why there must be a dispensation of grace for gentiles in Eph 2:11-13.
12) It is because, unlike the Jews, there was no promise of salvation made to them but God is making them "partakers" of Jewish spiritual blessings and promises.
13) This partaking is to be made one with the Jews and Christ in the body he is forming called the church.
14) The blessings are the forgiveness of sins in Christ and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here is an apostolic proclamation concerning the salvation of gentiles during this age that cannot be ignored.

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first (in Acts 10) did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Here is a nutshell definition of the "gospel of God."

Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

The mystery here is the same mystery of Christ that is defined in Eph 3:6 as the Jews and gentiles accepted by God as equal and as one in the body of Christ and as the two people groups making up the body of Christ.

Anyone who is obedient to God by believing the gospel of Christ is put into this body by the Spirit of God.

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

That day mentioned here is "The Day of the Lord."

I have more good news about the "gospel of God" and I might give it out later.

Have you ever read the Abrahamic Covenant?
All nations are blessed, which means that God saved all humans who were given faith to believe. This is why all the saints before the Mosaic/Sinai Covenant were saved. This is why people within the time of Israel, but not of the nation of Israel, were saved. It's why Nebuchadnezzar is in heaven.
You are creating a dispensation that God has not established.

*Genesis 22:16-18*
“By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

Van, as long as you hold a doctrine not taught by God, you will be wrong and all your writing will be in vain. It is time you repented and turned away from the pathway your theology is taking you. It is not the pathway of God.

 

[AustinC]

Here is yet another "taint so" post but no mention of any actual support. See 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and then ask if God chooses individuals through credited or uncredited faith in the truth. Thus the statement is biblical irrefutable.

"the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them"

We have gone over this. Your bolded (red) statement is utterly false. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not support your assertion.

Look at the context:
*2 Thessalonians 2:11-13*
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

This passage is not saying what you are claiming. It is not stating that "the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them. "
This passage is saying God is not sending the Thessalonians a delusion precisely because God has already chosen them as the first fruits (the spiritual first born [the spiritual Levites of the Old Covenant at Mt Sinai] before they ever had any faith at all. The text refutes your claim, it does not support it.

You are wrong, Van. Dead wrong.

 

[DaveXR650]

Another material false statement. Matthew 13 has lost people receiving the gospel with joy. Therefore they understood it and did not reject it or consider it foolish.

Verse 11 Matthew Chapter 13 "To you who have, it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven - The deep things which flesh and blood cannot reveal, pertaining to the inward, present kingdom of heaven. But to them who have not, it is not given - Therefore speak I in parables, that ye may understand, while they do not understand."

That's Wesley's take on it. Regarding verse 14 he says "All possible means will be given you: yet they will profit you nothing; because your heart is sensual, stupid and insensible; your spiritual senses are shut up, yea, you have closed your eyes against the light; as being unwilling to understand the things of God, and afraid, not desirous that he should heal you."

What you are doing is that you have such a high view of our own autonomy that you're willing to take both sides in order to try to preserve some of that. Wesley is no Calvinist and he thought the Holy Spirit is sovereign over our understanding of things that are spiritually discerned. What is happening in Matthew 13 is what can happen to all of us if we stay in our natural state. Wesley, and the Calvinist Puritans that I read all take it as a warning to respond quickly and properly to whatever light you are given. If all you get from a passage like this is to somehow show the choice is up to you - then I don't know.

 

[JD731]

Have you ever read the Abrahamic Covenant?
All nations are blessed, which means that God saved all humans who were given faith to believe. This is why all the saints before the Mosaic/Sinai Covenant were saved. This is why people within the time of Israel, but not of the nation of Israel, were saved. It's why Nebuchadnezzar is in heaven.
You are creating a dispensation that God has not established.

*Genesis 22:16-18*
“By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

My question is have you ever read the Abrahamic Covenant with any kind of discernment. God made a promise to Abraham, who was a father of the family of Israel. To him he promised the following;

"and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

1) It was a promise to Abraham, not to anyone else.
2) The families of earth will be blessed through his seed.
3) We know now that his seed is Jesus Christ, the Son of God
4) We are told by implication when the families of the earth will be blessed
5) It will happen when he comes into the world.
6) He came into the world after 4000 years of human history had passed.
7) Though God was his Father through the virgin, he received his humanity as the seed of the woman, who was of the lineage of Abraham and David.
8) There would be no salvation of anyone without his coming
9) The gentiles had no approach to God in the OT.
10) The only approach to God is through the blood sacrifice of an innocent substitute.
11) God has not made covenants with any nation except Israel.
12) God has always made it possible for believers of other nations to partake of Israel's promises by accepting her God and obeying his law.

Here is a passage that says exactly that, if you will receive it.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

I cannot understand such blindness that you folks have to deal with and how it is impossible for you to process elementary information and note obvious divisions in the scriptures, but the fact is, you cannot.

Matt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.


If sinners could have been saved before Jesus came and paid their sin debts, then Jesus died in vain. Sinners could be "justified" in the OT by the Judge, who could impute their faith in what the Judge said, for righteousness, until the payment could be made by the perfect sacrifice and his righteousness imputed, but they could not be saved until then.

The only thing the Judge required in the OT times was a man be faithful in those things God said to him. Nothing more, and nothing less. However in the NT, under the dispensation of grace, this is not true, but the following is true.

The operative word in the following passage is "Now." The now is after the law has ended as the operative principle of divine dealing with the Jews.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Here is what God had to say to a gentile audience without Jews present:

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? 20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing) 22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

Your specialized preference of yourself by God apart from the cross of Christ is a very false doctrine and I urge you to forsake it for the truth.

 

[AustinC]

My question is have you ever read the Abrahamic Covenant with any kind of discernment. God made a promise to Abraham, who was a father of the family of Israel. To him he promised the following;

"and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

1) It was a promise to Abraham, not to anyone else.
2) The families of earth will be blessed through his seed.
3) We know now that his seed is Jesus Christ, the Son of God
4) We are told by implication when the families of the earth will be blessed
5) It will happen when he comes into the world.
6) He came into the world after 4000 years of human history had passed.
7) Though God was his Father through the virgin, he received his humanity as the seed of the woman, who was of the lineage of Abraham and David.
8) There would be no salvation of anyone without his coming
9) The gentiles had no approach to God in the OT.
10) The only approach to God is through the blood sacrifice of an innocent substitute.
11) God has not made covenants with any nation except Israel.
12) God has always made it possible for believers of other nations to partake of Israel's promises by accepting her God and obeying his law.

Here is a passage that says exactly that, if you will receive it.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

I cannot understand such blindness that you folks have to deal with and how it is impossible for you to process elementary information and note obvious divisions in the scriptures, but the fact is, you cannot.

Matt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.


If sinners could have been saved before Jesus came and paid their sin debts, then Jesus died in vain. Sinners could be "justified" in the OT by the Judge, who could impute their faith in what the Judge said, for righteousness, until the payment could be made by the perfect sacrifice and his righteousness imputed, but they could not be saved until then.

The only thing the Judge required in the OT times was a man be faithful in those things God said to him. Nothing more, and nothing less. However in the NT, under the dispensation of grace, this is not true, but the following is true.

The operative word in the following passage is "Now." The now is after the law has ended as the operative principle of divine dealing with the Jews.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Here is what God had to say to a gentile audience without Jews present:

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? 20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing) 22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead,

Are you unaware that the Bible tells us that we who believe in the Promised One, Jesus, are the offspring of Abraham? We received the inheritance as son's of God. Abraham comes before Israel and was never an Israelite. Abraham was a Hebrew.
All humanity has access to God through the promise Given to Adam. The Promised One is for all who believe, from every nation tribe and tongue.
Your man-made dispensationalism clouds your thinking

 

[DaveXR650]

Your specialized preference of yourself by God apart from the cross of Christ is a very false doctrine and I urge you to forsake it for the truth.

JD. Not sure what you mean there.

 

[AustinC]

JD. Not sure what you mean there.

I also have no idea what he meant.

 

[JD731]

Are you unaware that the Bible tells us that we who believe in the Promised One, Jesus, are the offspring of Abraham? We received the inheritance as son's of God. Abraham comes before Israel and was never an Israelite. Abraham was a Hebrew.
All humanity has access to God through the promise Given to Adam. The Promised One is for all who believe, from every nation tribe and tongue.
Your man-made dispensationalism clouds your thinking

Abraham is set forth as the father of faith. The fact that God is using Abraham as the model of faith does not annul the covenants he made with his physical family. No honest person reading the scriptures could come to that conclusion unless he viewed God as unfaithful. If God can annul his promises to Abraham he can annul his promises to you.

Here is a statement from God concerning his physical family, those born of his lineage. I do not know if you can understand the logic given your track record so far, but I am giving it a try. Maybe others can be helped.

Rom 9: I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob), and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Abraham had children by other women besides Sarah. Sarah had only one son by Abraham. The other children were of the flesh but Isaac, Sarah's son, was the child that was promised and he was a miraculously born son, typifying Jesus Christ. He was also the second born son of Abraham, typifying the second birth that all children of God must have. God is making a contrast between the children of the flesh, who are physical seed and firstborn, and ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD with the promised seed through Sarah, who is the firstborn of God but the second born son of Abraham. This is typical all the way through this narrative. When Esau and Jacob were born, the firstborn, Esau, was typical of the flesh while Jacob, born second, represents the child of God who is born into the family of God.

Paul the apostle said, "In me, that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing." It was Jacob, the second born son of Abraham through Isaac, his second son, through whom the family was born, who was the OT elect family of God. This in itself is typical, being the first collective man, (see Exodus 4 here to see what I am talking about) and the church of Jesus Christ being the NEW man. This second birth is typified over and over in all the Bible because to get where God is one MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

Now, here is the skinny on the whole thing. God the Father of Jesus Christ has two sons in the OT times. Adam (Lk 3:38) and Jesus Christ. He is the first Adam and the last Adam, the first man and the second man. According to 1 Cor 15 one is of earth, earthy, and the other is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

So here it is.

Abraham = God the Father - two sons - one by the flesh, Hagar has Ishmael, one by Sarah, Isaac, then he has sons by Keturah.
Isaac - Jesus Christ, The second son of Abraham and born miraculously, has two son, twins, Esau the firstborn, and secondly Jacob.
Jacob - Spirit of God, the family is born of Jacob, typifying the church of Jesus Christ and the agency of the new birth. He has 12 sons, later one son of Joseph is added, which makes 13, and Levi becomes the type of the Church of Jesus Christ, the new man, in many different particulars.

So, in our chapters Romans 7 thru 11, we have Israel after the flesh, born of Abraham but not of God, and we have the remnant of Israel who believe in Christ, who are born of Abraham and are born again of God the Father. This is the character of Israel in this age but it in no way annuls the covenants that God made with the family of Abraham, Israel. They will be saved later when the church is complete and after they have gone through the purging, their baptism of fire, when there will be few left to save.

 

[37818]

. . . their baptism of fire, . . .

Chaff, Luke 3:17, ". . . .but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. . . ." Revelation 20:15.

 

[AustinC]

Abraham is set forth as the father of faith. The fact that God is using Abraham as the model of faith does not annul the covenants he made with his physical family. No honest person reading the scriptures could come to that conclusion unless he viewed God as unfaithful. If God can annul his promises to Abraham he can annul his promises to you.

Here is a statement from God concerning his physical family, those born of his lineage. I do not know if you can understand the logic given your track record so far, but I am giving it a try. Maybe others can be helped.

Rom 9: I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob), and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Abraham had children by other women besides Sarah. Sarah had only one son by Abraham. The other children were of the flesh but Isaac, Sarah's son, was the child that was promised and he was a miraculously born son, typifying Jesus Christ. He was also the second born son of Abraham, typifying the second birth that all children of God must have. God is making a contrast between the children of the flesh, who are physical seed and firstborn, and ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD with the promised seed through Sarah, who is the firstborn of God but the second born son of Abraham. This is typical all the way through this narrative. When Esau and Jacob were born, the firstborn, Esau, was typical of the flesh while Jacob, born second, represents the child of God who is born into the family of God.

Paul the apostle said, "In me, that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing." It was Jacob, the second born son of Abraham through Isaac, his second son, through whom the family was born, who was the OT elect family of God. This in itself is typical, being the first collective man, (see Exodus 4 here to see what I am talking about) and the church of Jesus Christ being the NEW man. This second birth is typified over and over in all the Bible because to get where God is one MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

Now, here is the skinny on the whole thing. God the Father of Jesus Christ has two sons in the OT times. Adam (Lk 3:38) and Jesus Christ. He is the first Adam and the last Adam, the first man and the second man. According to 1 Cor 15 one is of earth, earthy, and the other is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

So here it is.

Abraham = God the Father - two sons - one by the flesh, Hagar has Ishmael, one by Sarah, Isaac, then he has sons by Keturah.
Isaac - Jesus Christ, The second son of Abraham and born miraculously, has two son, twins, Esau the firstborn, and secondly Jacob.
Jacob - Spirit of God, the family is born of Jacob, typifying the church of Jesus Christ and the agency of the new birth. He has 12 sons, later one son of Joseph is added, which makes 13, and Levi becomes the type of the Church of Jesus Christ, the new man, in many different particulars.

So, in our chapters Romans 7 thru 11, we have Israel after the flesh, born of Abraham but not of God, and we have the remnant of Israel who believe in Christ, who are born of Abraham and are born again of God the Father. This is the character of Israel in this age but it in no way annuls the covenants that God made with the family of Abraham, Israel. They will be saved later when the church is complete and after they have gone through the purging, their baptism of fire, when there will be few left to save.

Abraham is far from the father of faith. Adam and Eve had faith. All the saints from Adam and Eve had faith. It is a gift, given by grace to the elect.

 

[Van]

We have gone over this. Your bolded (red) statement is utterly false. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not support your assertion.

Look at the context:
*2 Thessalonians 2:11-13*
Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

This passage is not saying what you are claiming. It is not stating that "the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them. "
This passage is saying God is not sending the Thessalonians a delusion precisely because God has already chosen them as the first fruits (the spiritual first born [the spiritual Levites of the Old Covenant at Mt Sinai] before they ever had any faith at all. The text refutes your claim, it does not support it.

You are wrong, Van. Dead wrong.

Folks, the above is errant nonsense. Anyone who can objectively read can see "God CHOSE you as first fruits FOR SALVATION, THROUGH [OR BY UTILIZING] sanctification by the Spirit AND FAITH IN THE TRUTH..

God utilized their faith in His selection process, this truth is right there for all to see.

 

[Van]

Verse 11 Matthew Chapter 13 "To you who have, it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven - The deep things which flesh and blood cannot reveal, pertaining to the inward, present kingdom of heaven. But to them who have not, it is not given - Therefore speak I in parables, that ye may understand, while they do not understand."

That's Wesley's take on it. Regarding verse 14 he says "All possible means will be given you: yet they will profit you nothing; because your heart is sensual, stupid and insensible; your spiritual senses are shut up, yea, you have closed your eyes against the light; as being unwilling to understand the things of God, and afraid, not desirous that he should heal you."

What you are doing is that you have such a high view of our own autonomy that you're willing to take both sides in order to try to preserve some of that. Wesley is no Calvinist and he thought the Holy Spirit is sovereign over our understanding of things that are spiritually discerned. What is happening in Matthew 13 is what can happen to all of us if we stay in our natural state. Wesley, and the Calvinist Puritans that I read all take it as a warning to respond quickly and properly to whatever light you are given. If all you get from a passage like this is to somehow show the choice is up to you - then I don't know.

Wesley was not inspired and his view is not germane. They, soils #2,3 and 4 received the gospel. Full Stop. Jesus spoke in parables to prevent at that time those in His audience from understanding and being healed. Full Stop.

 

[JD731]

JD. Not sure what you mean there.

I also have no idea what he meant.

You guys reacting to this statement:

JD731 said: ↑
Your specialized preference of yourself by God apart from the cross of Christ is a very false doctrine and I urge you to forsake it for the truth.

Calvinism and Reformed theology says that a person is pre-chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be saved or to not be saved. This doctrine is called by the Reformed, "election." It might be stated that this election of God before the creation of the world is an ACTION of God and not merely an attribute of God, like perhaps "foreknowledge" of God would be categorized. However, because of the nature of God, as defined by his omnipresence, it is impossible for God to have foreknowledge in his eternal being seeing as how he transcends time and is not constrained in any way by it. Because of this it can be said that God knows all things by one eternal act of knowing. Therefore it can be said that God in his eternal person has omniscience. He exists outside of time, having been it's creator, and he sees all things at all times whether they be in the past or present or future for us men on the earth.

This is the reason, btw, that men must be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. God has restricted himself to be unable to see the sins of anyone who is under the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. Otherwise, God would always see every one who is born of Adam as they committed sins. If a man committed only one sin, God would always see him committing it. This would make him absent the righteousness God requires to be in his presence. God not only applies the blood of Christ to the repentant sinner but he also imputes his very righteousness to him and this is a one time transaction that can never be undone no matter the circumstances. A just man and a righteous man, having that declaration from the Judge, can never be condemned.

There is one other place that God has created that he is chosen not to be. That place is the lake of fire. No one occupies that place at this present time and the first people who will inhabit it is the man of sin and the false prophet. They will be cast alive, body and soul, into this place. At the judgement of the great white throne at the end of the seven, one thousand year days of God, just before his redeemed creation enters into the eternal Day of God, (the eighth day, the day after the sabbath) with it's new heaven and new earth and New Jerusalem, all those souls who are presently in hell will be brought forth to give account of their works and be judged accordingly and cast into this awful place where God will forget them.

I tell you these things because your claim that God has made a difference in sinners in eternity past by what you call election, and you are one of those specially chosen elect who God alone intends to save from their sins, is a bogus doctrine and has no scriptural merit. God, when he evaluates sinners in Romans 3 says there is no difference in sinners and that he will save all and any sinner who will believe in Jesus Christ, who alone lived a sinless life and then offered himself as a sacrifice for us all, God raising him from the dead.

There is definitely a doctrine of election in the scriptures but it is not anything like what you and your Reformed denominations teach. God has elected Jesus Christ in eternity before time and has chosen all those who believe in him and his work on their behalf, whom the Spirit of God places into the body of Christ, which he is forming in this age between the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the Day of the Lord. This is the truth about election. I can break it, true election, down into more details if you request it.