John 3:16 Study

[JD731]

I have read the scriptures. I see that God makes a man alive, even while they are dead in sins. I see that upon being made alive, that person is given faith to believe. How is it that you are unaware of Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2, as well as Romans 8 and Romans 9, plus John 6, John 10, and John 17, not to mention John 3,etc, etc.?
Are you unaware or do you simply reject all passages that directly attribute your faith and salvation to God alone, without your assistance.

We simply reject your graceless, merit based teaching.

Faith is not given by God the Father as a matter of salvation anywhere in the scriptures. It takes manipulation of the scriptural texts and a mind that desires to be deceived to believe such a thing. Salvation, the Holy Ghost, the righteousness of Christ, forgiveness of sins, eternal Life, all synonyms and all received by a man who has by birth a constitution that includes intellect, reason, and will. This is the reason that we are told that faith comes by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ and the gospel of God the Father. The gospel is the power, or authority, if you will, unto salvation. The doctrine of pre selection is not the power of God unto salvation like the Reformed teaches.

Men have been given a conscience and God has written a moral code into it. This means a man can know the difference between right and wrong whether there is a Bible within ten thousand miles of him and if he has never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. One definition of sin that we are given will support this doctrine.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Not only is the untenable doctrine of the Reformed that believing God is a work, but that doctrine is taught in the very face of God saying without equivication that believing him and being justified is not a work. I am going to prove this in two passages, all that is required to establish a truth.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

I do not know if you have ability to process information but above is a declaration from God Almighty that faith and believing is not a work. It is substantiated by the statement below.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

You are on here teaching just the opposite, that it i(imputed righteousness) s by grace, that it might be by faith.

This is Abraham and God. One has grace. The other has faith. It takes faith in what God says to access grace that justifies in the eyes of the Judge.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Number 2;

Ga 3:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Faith and works are contrasted as opposite principles.

This doctrine that believing is a work is a false doctrine that leads to a false gospel in many. It is more serious than we think.

 

[Van]

Your translation of John 3:16 is driven by your obsession with something God never teaches in the Bible. God does not save based upon the merited faith of an unsaved person.

Yet another "taint so" post devoid of any biblical support.

And the reference to "merited faith" is a troll like gratuitous insult, demonic in nature, from the Father of Lies.

 

[Van]

Baptists are split on the specifics of John 3:16. When I was young, and the "Bible" was the KJV, we memorized the verse this way: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

1) The first issue is that some thought the verse was saying how much God loved. Now scholars translate the verse to indicate the idea is how or in what manner God loved.

2) Next, the translation of Kosmos (G2889) as world is ambiguous. The Greek word refers to an interrelated system, such as a planet or a society. Contextually, in this verse "kosmos" refers to fallen humanity.

3) Next the idea of "give" certainly indicates to provide or make available for use. Looking a little deeper the idea is that the gift would provide a blessing (shall not perish).

4) "Only begotten" is a mistranslation of "monogenes" and should be translated "one of a kind" or "uniquely divine." Jesus is not God's only Son, as Adam was also the son of God, and every born anew believer is also a child of God. However Jesus was one of a kind, uniquely divine, God incarnate.

5) "Whosoever believes" refers to an undetermined segment of fallen humanity, not a preselected segment.

6) In Him refers to those who spiritually enter into Christ's spiritual body, as the preposition translated "in" means "into." Since humanity is not able to change their spiritual location (going from the realm of darkness into the marvelous light of God's kingdom) "into" refers to God crediting the person's faith as "righteous faith" and on that basis transferring the person into Christ.

7) Once placed within Christ, the person is made (eternally) alive together with Christ.

Here is John 3:16 as understood through study:

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life
​

 

[Van]

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

The above interpretative translation of John 3:16 has been rejected by some posters on the following basis:

1) The Greek word transliterated "kosmos" refers to only the elect in this verse. However God desires all people to be saved and Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Therefore humanity or fallen humanity better conveys God's actual message. See 1 Timothy 2:3-6

2) The Greek word transliterated "monogenes" refers to Christ as His "only begotten." However every born anew believer was born, thus Christ is not the only begotten. Such a translation is a corruption.

3) The Greek word transliterated "eis" means "in" or "on" rather than referring to God crediting the person's faith as righteous faith and transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. However it is very unlikely God would bestow blessings because He did not credit someone's faith. See Colossians 1:13

 

[JD731]

I have read the scriptures. I see that God makes a man alive, even while they are dead in sins. I see that upon being made alive, that person is given faith to believe. How is it that you are unaware of Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2, as well as Romans 8 and Romans 9, plus John 6, John 10, and John 17, not to mention John 3,etc, etc.?
Are you unaware or do you simply reject all passages that directly attribute your faith and salvation to God alone, without your assistance.

We simply reject your graceless, merit based teaching.

Another problem with the logic of the Reformed is their definition of death as being total inability. This is not true.The rich man kneeling in front of Jesus Christ as our Lord was answering his question of what he must do to inherit eternal life in Mark10:21 was told what he must do. This came from the lips of the savior whose primary reason for coming into the world as a man was to save sinners. One would think, in light of that fact, that Jesus would not mislead him on the subject of salvation, but read the text;

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Jesus said clearly what his problem was. It is on the object of his affections. He loved his riches in his heart more than his desire for eternal life. He made a choice that was clearly delineated that day and it is a lesson for us all. This man chose his riches and went away sorrowful without eternal life.

Death means separation, not total depravity. Separation is all it means.This man had intellect, reason, and will. His reasoning based on what he was told caused him to exercise his will to keep his riches and walk away from eternal life.

It is that simple for all of us.

 

[JD731]

Baptists are split on the specifics of John 3:16.

4) "Only begotten" is a mistranslation of "monogenes" and should be translated "one of a kind" or "uniquely divine." Jesus is not God's only Son, as Adam was also the son of God, and every born anew believer is also a child of God. However Jesus was one of a kind, uniquely divine, God incarnate.

What is the use of speaking to you on the truths in John 3:16? We are not reading the same statements about Jesus Christ. My Bible says something different in that verse than your Bible translation. You have made your decision on what you believe. I have made mine. I have decided your translation is not totally accurate and does damage to the truth. But with that being said, I understand you have the right to believe what you will and I am OK with that. I just don't want to be like you.

 

[DaveXR650]

Not only is the untenable doctrine of the Reformed that believing God is a work, but that doctrine is taught in the very face of God saying without equivication that believing him and being justified is not a work. I am going to prove this in two passages, all that is required to establish a truth.

That's not a reformed doctrine. There is a hyper-Calvinist strand on here that do believe that. The WCF says in chapter 7 that life and salvation are offered to sinners by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him. It is within Calvinist doctrine to say that faith is a requirement for salvation and in that sense it is OK to say faith is a "condition" for salvation. It is Calvinist doctrine to say that without the action of the Holy Spirit there will be no tendency for a man to see any reason to come to Christ or listen to the gospel.

 

[37818]

.@JD731,

What do you believe μονογενής, monogenēs, should be translated? That Greek word is made from two words. μόνος, monos, meaning sole, and γίνομαι, ginomai, meaning to be.

 

[Van]

What is the use of speaking to you on the truths in John 3:16? We are not reading the same statements about Jesus Christ. My Bible says something different in that verse than your Bible translation. You have made your decision on what you believe. I have made mine. I have decided your translation is not totally accurate and does damage to the truth. But with that being said, I understand you have the right to believe what you will and I am OK with that. I just don't want to be like you.

Folks, personal incredulity is a fallacious argument.
1) JD731 said I did not believe in the virgin birth of Christ. This was demonstrated as false.
2) JD731 suggested I did not support salvation by grace through faith. That is false.
3) JD731 indicated I believe "faith" is a [meritorious] work. That is false

A little biblical insight:
1) A work, singular, does not equal "works" something done meriting reward.
2) To avoid that bogus argument, the NET alters the Greek word often translated "work" to read "deed" as in "this is the deed (singular) God requires." See John 6:28-29.

Here is the interpretative rendering of John 3:16 that seems to have kindled so much heat:

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.
​

Arguments against this rendering seem based on unstudied views in my opinion.

 

[AustinC]

Here is the interpretative rendering of John 3:16 that seems to have kindled so much heat:

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.
​

Arguments against this rendering seem based on unstudied views in my opinion.

Van, it is a terrible interpretation. Just awful. Not one Greek scholar ever translates it the way you do. Not one person. So, the incredulity is that you dare to foist such a terrible translation upon us as though we should take you seriously.

What you have done is an attempt to force your personal, unfounded theology, onto John 3:16 and then tell us that you have a legitimate translation. Stop being so obtuse, Van.

 

[Van]

Van, it is a terrible interpretation. Just awful. Not one Greek scholar ever translates it the way you do. Not one person. So, the incredulity is that you dare to foist such a terrible translation upon us as though we should take you seriously.

What you have done is an attempt to force your personal, unfounded theology, onto John 3:16 and then tell us that you have a legitimate translation. Stop being so obtuse, Van.

More taint so, more personal incredulity, more lack of substance and more against the man malicious argumentation.

Here is the interpretative rendering of John 3:16 that seems to have kindled so much heat:

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

Arguments against this rendering seem based on unstudied views in my opinion.

 

[JD731]

.@JD731,

What do you believe μονογενής, monogenēs, should be translated? That Greek word is made from two words. μόνος, monos, meaning sole, and γίνομαι, ginomai, meaning to be.

I am happy with only begotten Son. The point is God is a fleshly man as opposed to a spirit, which could be the case if he is "uniquely divine.: Hebrews 1:14, speaking of angels, who are called "sons of God" in the OT scriptures, says, "are they not ministering spirits sent forth to minister to them who shall be heirs of salvation?

He 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

No, God is the Father of Jesus. He is the only man who is ever born this way.

 

[JD731]

Folks, personal incredulity is a fallacious argument.
1) JD731 said I did not believe in the virgin birth of Christ. This was demonstrated as false.
2) JD731 suggested I did not support salvation by grace through faith. That is false.
3) JD731 indicated I believe "faith" is a [meritorious] work. That is false

A little biblical insight:
1) A work, singular, does not equal "works" something done meriting reward.
2) To avoid that bogus argument, the NET alters the Greek word often translated "work" to read "deed" as in "this is the deed (singular) God requires." See John 6:28-29.

Here is the interpretative rendering of John 3:16 that seems to have kindled so much heat:

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.
​

Arguments against this rendering seem based on unstudied views in my opinion.

Keep on translating. Maybe one day you will get it right, according to you. Meanwhile there is more division in Christendom than ever because of smart men like you. Jesus Christ said one can know the tree by the fruit it bears. Division and weakness is the fruit of this philosophy of many bibles with no authority. The results are the opposite of what men like you claim for this doing it your own way deal. There is more ignorance and darkness than ever.

 

[37818]

The point is God is a fleshly man as opposed to a spirit, . . .

What?!
John 4:24, ". . . God is a Spirit: . . . ."
Hosea 11:9, ". . . for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: . . . "
Numbers 23:19, ". . . God is not a man, that he should lie; . . ."

 

[JD731]

That's not a reformed doctrine. There is a hyper-Calvinist strand on here that do believe that. The WCF says in chapter 7 that life and salvation are offered to sinners by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him. It is within Calvinist doctrine to say that faith is a requirement for salvation and in that sense it is OK to say faith is a "condition" for salvation. It is Calvinist doctrine to say that without the action of the Holy Spirit there will be no tendency for a man to see any reason to come to Christ or listen to the gospel.

What I have underlined is not a true statement according to sound doctrine, though it might be Reformed doctrine. This is not to saying you are lying, just that you are confused.

The Holy Spirit is the agent of the new birth. He is the gift of God. The gift is received by believing words. The transfer of the gift that is given by God and received by men is accomplished by the recipient believing words that are given by some man/men. As soon as God sees faith in a mans heart, he gives the gift. The gift is a person who takes residence in the body of the believer and seals him as a son of God forever.

Men are convicted by their conscience, not by the Holy Ghost.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

What I have underlined is not a true statement according to sound doctrine, though it might be Reformed doctrine. This is not to saying you are lying, just that you are confused.

The Holy Spirit is the agent of the new birth. He is the gift of God. The gift is received by believing words. The transfer of the gift that is given by God and received by men is accomplished by the recipient believing words that are given by some man/men. As soon as God sees faith in a mans heart, he gives the gift. The gift is a person who takes residence in the body of the believer and seals him as a son of God forever.

Men are convicted by their conscience, not by the Holy Ghost.

It is Reformed doctrine. My only intention was to say that faith is not a work according to Calvinist doctrine. Some of the guys on here go too far when they say that. What you state above is familiar to me and honestly, I have no problem with it. I would be careful with the statement that men are not convicted by the Holy Ghost. In that you are going beyond original Arminian doctrine, Freewill Baptist doctrine and even Wesley. In fact, if you say that, you actually do give credibility to the idea of faith being a work in the sense that God has set out a plan and now there are certain things you and you alone must do to get the benefits. In that case I have seen the argument made that faith could be considered a merit or a work. I'm just going from memory, but I think Owen used that argument against Pelagius.

If you pray for someone to get saved, what are you asking if not that there will be supernatural influence on them which would be by the Holy Spirit? I would even argue that our natural conscience is a gift from God, one of the common graces, which helps us not to kill each other but is not enough to enable us to seek God for salvation as other verses indicate.

 

[Van]

Keep on translating. Maybe one day you will get it right, according to you. Meanwhile there is more division in Christendom than ever because of smart men like you. Jesus Christ said one can know the tree by the fruit it bears. Division and weakness is the fruit of this philosophy of many bibles with no authority. The results are the opposite of what men like you claim for this doing it your own way deal. There is more ignorance and darkness than ever.

Yet another post addressing my behavior and ignoring study of John 3:16. The old, if you do not believe as I believe, you are being factious.

Here is the interpretative rendering of John 3:16 that seems to have kindled so much heat:

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

Arguments against this rendering seem based on unstudied views in my opinion.

 

[Van]

I see a post claiming that if we pray for someone to be saved, we are acknowledging that they must be supernaturally "enabled" by God to allow their salvation. Utter nonsense.

Many believers have prayed that God would give them the opportunity and words to plainly convey the gospel to the lost. We know no one comes to put their faith and devotion in Christ unless drawn (attracted) by the Father, but we see that action being accomplished by presenting the lovingkindness of God, dying for us on that old rugged cross, as the Father's predetermined plan drawing those who behold Christ high and lifted up.

 

[DaveXR650]

We know no one comes to put their faith and devotion in Christ unless drawn (attracted) by the Father, but we see that action being accomplished by presenting the lovingkindness of God, dying for us on that old rugged cross, as the Father's predetermined plan drawing those who behold Christ high and lifted up.

So no one comes unless drawn by the Father but they aren't really drawn supernaturally by the Father but just by the proper presentation of the qualities of God and yet somehow the whole thing is predetermined? You really ought to publish this stuff.

 

[AustinC]

So no one comes unless drawn by the Father but they aren't really drawn supernaturally by the Father but just by the proper presentation of the qualities of God and yet somehow the whole thing is predetermined? You really ought to publish this stuff.

Here is what @Van stated in another thread:
"the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them"

It's just patently wrong.