John 3:16 Study

[Van]

How many off topic posts does it take to derail a thread? If a KJVO argument for "only begotten" is allowed to destroy any discussion of John 3:16, how can we edify those seeking truth?

 

[canadyjd]

No, but this question is so out of the blue and over the top that I it makes me ask you to explain your thinking in asking it. I surely did not even hint that I believe such a ridiculous thing. I did not mention Cain or Abel or even hint at these people or at your suggested impossibility. I mentioned a prophecy concerning the seed of the woman who is Jesus Christ from Gen 3:15.

I must tell you that my head went into the spin mode big time when I saw that question.

so thank you in advance for explaining yourself.

I apologize. I was referring to a post by someone else regarding Cain and Abel.

I find your posts difficult to understand. I was simply asking for clarification. Thank you

Peace to you

 

[McCree79]

That's a fair question. I suppose you have in mind the Niceno-Constantinopolitan amended form of the creed.

View attachment 7239

The creed is mistaken when it states "begotten of the Father before all worlds".
Christ the Word proceeded from God "before all worlds", of course, but Christ the Son is a reference to his body. Jesus is the incarnational Son of God, by definition. Christ is eternal as the Word, not as the Son. As the Word he is God, as the Son he is man.
The creed actually contradicts its own statement right after as it unwittingly corrects itself when declaring "and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary"...exactly, "was incarnate" is the "begotten" part, again, by definition.
Of course, the creed is wrong on other points such as:
1) describing Mary as "The Virgin", a titular RCC description foreign to the word of God where she is simply a virgin and which did not remain one.
2) apparently positing a single future resurrection and judgment when the scriptures reveal more than one resurrection and judgment
3) implying that the remission of sins is by water baptism, which is definitely not true during the church-age.

Thanks. That helps me understand your viewpoint.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[Van]

Baptists are split on the specifics of John 3:16. When I was young, and the "Bible" was the KJV, we memorized the verse this way: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

1) The first issue is that some thought the verse was saying how much God loved. Now scholars translate the verse to indicate the idea is how or in what manner God loved.

2) Next, the translation of Kosmos (G2889) as world is ambiguous. The Greek word refers to an interrelated system, such as a planet or a society. Contextually, in this verse "kosmos" refers to fallen humanity.

3) Next the idea of "give" certainly indicates to provide or make available for use. Looking a little deeper the idea is that the gift would provide a blessing (shall not perish).

4) "Only begotten" is a mistranslation of "monogenes" and should be translated "one of a kind" or "uniquely divine." Jesus is not God's only Son, as Adam was also the son of God, and every born anew believer is also a child of God. However Jesus was one of a kind, uniquely divine, God incarnate.

5) "Whosoever believes" refers to an undetermined segment of fallen humanity, not a preselected segment.

6) In Him refers to those who spiritually enter into Christ's spiritual body, as the preposition translated "in" means "into." Since humanity is not able to change their spiritual location (going from the realm of darkness into the marvelous light of God's kingdom) "into" refers to God crediting the person's faith as "righteous faith" and on that basis transferring the person into Christ.

7) Once placed within Christ, the person is made (eternally) alive together with Christ.

Here is John 3:16 as understood through study:

God loved humanity in this way, He gave is uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him will not perish but have everlasting life. ​

 

[JD731]

How many off topic posts does it take to derail a thread? If a KJVO argument for "only begotten" is allowed to destroy any discussion of John 3:16, how can we edify those seeking truth?

I don't know why you oppose the fact that Jesus Christ is the virgin born son of God and that is why he is different from any other man. And the fact that it was you who opened the discussion by attacking what many Christians believe by calling it a mistranslation. It makes me wonder why the whining when someone disagrees with you and replies to the point. A person can be "one of a kind" without being virgin born, but he cannot be only begotten Son of God and and not be one of a kind.

4) "Only begotten" is a mistranslation of "monogenes" and should be translated "one of a kind" or "uniquely divine." Jesus is not God's only Son, as Adam was also the son of God, and every born anew believer is also a child of God. However Jesus was one of a kind, uniquely divine, God incarnate.

Illustration why this matters;

In John 6 we have rulers of Israel arguing with Jesus in a synagogue in Capernaum after he has turned 5 loaves and 2 fishes into a meal that fed 5000 men and the women and children the day before. There can be no doubt that this made Jesus unique in their eyes because no other man could do that. This made them follow him across the sea and precipitated this meeting the next day.
But, as they talked, they revealed this about themselves. Read the quote;

Jn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

This was in response to what Jesus had just said here;

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The point is, and it was not lost on these unbelieving Jews, is that he is a man whose Father is the God of heaven. His father was not Joseph. One fundamental of the faith for anyone is to believe the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, that he is both man and God. That truth is what the gospel of John is all about.

Liberal minds desires to take the emphasis off this truth and to tone down the language.

 

[Van]

I don't know why you oppose the fact that Jesus Christ is the virgin born son of God SNIP
.

Why post out and out falsehoods?
Here is my posted on this thread position:

The Greek word, transliterated as "Monogenes" literally means "one of a kind." What makes Jesus the "one of a kind" uniquely divine Son when there are other sons of God such as Adam and every born anew believer?

Jesus is uniquely divine in these and other ways:

1) God incarnate -
John 1:14: And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the uniquely divine Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

2) God with us -
Matthew 1:23: "“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN WILL CONCEIVE AND GIVE BIRTH TO A SON, AND THEY SHALL NAME HIM IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”


3) Virgin birth -
Matthew 1:23: “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN WILL CONCEIVE AND GIVE BIRTH TO A SON, AND THEY SHALL NAME HIM IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

4) Holy One of God -
Mark 1:24: saying, “What ]business do you have with us, Jesus ]of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are: the Holy One of God!”

5) Jesus is the only way to God -
John 14:6: Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[kyredneck]

Perhaps “world” is making the point God’s love in giving His Son was not limited to the Jewish people only, but included Gentiles.

???

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18

Compare:
24 ....I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15

With:
20 ...I have spoken openly to the world....Jn 18

 

[Van]

CJB
Yeshua answered, “I have spoken quite openly to everyone; I have always taught in a synagogue or in the Temple where all Jews meet together, and I have said nothing in secret;

CEV
But Jesus told him, “I have spoken freely in front of everyone. And I have always taught in our synagogues and in the temple, where all of our people come together. I have not said anything in secret.

ERV
Jesus answered, “I have always spoken openly to all people. I always taught in the synagogues and in the Temple area. All the Jews come together there. I never said anything in secret.

GW
Jesus answered him, “I have spoken publicly for everyone to hear. I have always taught in synagogues or in the temple courtyard, where all the Jews gather. I haven’t said anything in secret.

GNT
Jesus answered, “I have always spoken publicly to everyone; all my teaching was done in the synagogues and in the Temple, where all the people come together. I have never said anything in secret.

ICB
Jesus answered, “I have spoken openly to everyone. I have always taught in synagogues and in the Temple, where all the Jews come together. I never said anything in secret.

TLB
Jesus replied, “What I teach is widely known, for I have preached regularly in the synagogue and Temple; I have been heard by all the Jewish leaders and teach nothing in private that I have not said in public.

NOG
Yeshua answered him, “I have spoken publicly for everyone to hear. I have always taught in synagogues or in the temple courtyard, where all the Jews gather. I haven’t said anything in secret.

NCV
Jesus answered, “I have spoken openly to everyone. I have always taught in synagogues and in the Temple, where all the Jews come together. I never said anything in secret.

NLT
Jesus replied, “Everyone knows what I teach. I have preached regularly in the synagogues and the Temple, where the people gather. I have not spoken in secret.

WE
Jesus answered him, `I have talked so that anyone who wanted to could hear me. I have always taught in the meeting houses and in the temple. That is where the Jews always go. I have not said anything in a secret way.

The above translations understood that "kosmos" as used in John 18:20 refers to people in general and not exclusively to Jesus, but inclusive of Jews.

 

[JD731]

Why post out and out falsehoods?
Here is my posted on this thread position:

The Greek word, transliterated as "Monogenes" literally means "one of a kind." What makes Jesus the "one of a kind" uniquely divine Son when there are other sons of God such as Adam and every born anew believer?

Jesus is uniquely divine in these and other ways:

1) God incarnate -
John 1:14: And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the uniquely divine Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

2) God with us -
Matthew 1:23: "“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN WILL CONCEIVE AND GIVE BIRTH TO A SON, AND THEY SHALL NAME HIM IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”


3) Virgin birth -
Matthew 1:23: “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN WILL CONCEIVE AND GIVE BIRTH TO A SON, AND THEY SHALL NAME HIM IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

4) Holy One of God -
Mark 1:24: saying, “What ]business do you have with us, Jesus ]of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are: the Holy One of God!”

5) Jesus is the only way to God -
John 14:6: Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

I responded to point #4 in your op. You have a bad translation and a bad argument to support it. John the apostle did not write his gospel to convince us that Jesus Christ was God's one and only son or that he is the only unique Son without us knowing what made him unique. The fact that he became a man and the only man who has ever existed before his birth and has been begotten of the God of heaven is what he is putting forth in his gospel. The operative idea is that he is the only "begotten" son of God in the flesh.

After beginning his gospel declaring that Jesus is God and creator and from everlasting, he then declares that he is also flesh like us.

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

After the resurrection, and because of it, Jesus is declared to be the Firstborn (of many additional sons of God) from the dead.

Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Our Lord Jesus is both the "only" begotten Son of God at Bethlehem
and the "first" begotten Son from the dead at his resurrection

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The fact of the two births is what is important in the text of John 3:16. So says Jesus in the text when he says these words.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

One cannot enter the kingdom of God without both births. Our Lord had both births.

I think your translation diminishes this truth and I said so.

 

[37818]

The operative idea is that he is the only "begotten" son of God in the flesh.

μονογενής monogenes is being translated "only begotten" in English because the Latin tradition. Not because of His incarnation. John 1:18.

 

[canadyjd]

???

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18

Compare:
24 ....I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15

With:
20 ...I have spoken openly to the world....Jn 18

Ok, All the writers of scripture had particular audiences in mind. John wrote after the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, and by that time the Christian church was well established to have a large gentile fellowship.

It makes sense for John to emphasize those teachings of Jesus that demonstrated the gospel would go to the Gentiles and Mark, who wrote a couple decades earlier while the church still had a large Jewish fellowship) to emphasize Jesus’s ministry to be focused on the Jewish people.

peace to you

 

[JD731]

μονογενής monogenes is being translated "only begotten" in English because the Latin tradition. Not because of His incarnation. John 1:18.

Is that the final word on the subject?

 

[37818]

Is that the final word on the subject?

Which subject?

μονογενής monogenes is being translated "only begotten" in English because the Latin tradition. Not because of His incarnation. John 1:18.

μονογενής

Monogenes is being translated "only begotten" in English.

Being translated "only begotten" in English because the Latin tradition.

Not because of His incarnation. John 1:18.

 

[Van]

I responded to point #4 in your op. SNIP.

Did you misrepresent my view? Yes
Did you admit your error? Nope
Nuff said

 

[Van]

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

The above interpretative translation of John 3:16 has been rejected by some posters on the following basis:

1) The Greek word transliterated "kosmos" refers to only the elect in this verse. However God desires all people to be saved and Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Therefore humanity or fallen humanity better conveys God's actual message.

2) The Greek word transliterated "monogenes" refers to Christ as His "only begotten." However every born anew believer was born, thus Christ is not the only begotten. Such a translation is a corruption.

3) The Greek word transliterated "eis" means "in" or "on" rather than referring to God crediting the person's faith as righteous faith and transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. However it is very unlikely God would bestow blessings because He did not credit someone's faith.

 

[AustinC]

God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone credited with righteous faith in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life.

The above interpretative translation of John 3:16 has been rejected by some posters on the following basis:

1) The Greek word transliterated "kosmos" refers to only the elect in this verse. However God desires all people to be saved and Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Therefore humanity or fallen humanity better conveys God's actual message.

2) The Greek word transliterated "monogenes" refers to Christ as His "only begotten." However every born anew believer was born, thus Christ is not the only begotten. Such a translation is a corruption.

3) The Greek word transliterated "eis" means "in" or "on" rather than referring to God crediting the person's faith as righteous faith and transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. However it is very unlikely God would bestow blessings because He did not credit someone's faith.

Your translation of John 3:16 is driven by your obsession with something God never teaches in the Bible. God does not save based upon the merited faith of an unsaved person.

 

[Van]

Your translation of John 3:16 is driven by your obsession with something God never teaches in the Bible. God does not save based upon the merited faith of an unsaved person.

Yet another personal incredulity post, devoid of any biblical support. No one said our faith merited being credited as righteous faith or salvation, that is your disinformation claim.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another personal incredulity post, devoid of any biblical support. No one said our faith merited being credited as righteous faith or salvation, that is your disinformation claim.

Van, you declare that with every post.
You demand that a person have faith before salvation, which God would then decide whether to credit that faith as righteous or not righteous.
Van, that is merit based salvation no matter how you parse it.

 

[JD731]

Van, you declare that with every post.
You demand that a person have faith before salvation, which God would then decide whether to credit that faith as righteous or not righteous.
Van, that is merit based salvation no matter how you parse it.

Haven't you ever read the scriptures? If your answer is yes and you do not understand words any better than you demonstrate here, I suggest you get your money back from your English teacher.

If a man does not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, then he cannot be saved from the penalty of his sin, which is the second death in the lake of fire, where he is forgotten of God for all eternity.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If a man says he cannot believe, then he makes God a liar.

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

How you fellows day after day continue to deny this fundamental truth, saying faith is a work when God makes it as plain as daylight that he does not think it is but is a requirement of God for salvation, but according to you, sinners cannot do what God requires is like admitting you can't process words logically.

 

[AustinC]

Haven't you ever read the scriptures? If your answer is yes and you do not understand words any better than you demonstrate here, I suggest you get your money back from your English teacher.

If a man does not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, then he cannot be saved from the penalty of his sin, which is the second death in the lake of fire, where he is forgotten of God for all eternity.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If a man says he cannot believe, then he makes God a liar.

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

How you fellows day after day continue to deny this fundamental truth, saying faith is a work when God makes it as plain as daylight that he does not think it is but is a requirement of God for salvation, but according to you, sinners cannot do what God requires is like admitting you can't process words logically.

I have read the scriptures. I see that God makes a man alive, even while they are dead in sins. I see that upon being made alive, that person is given faith to believe. How is it that you are unaware of Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2, as well as Romans 8 and Romans 9, plus John 6, John 10, and John 17, not to mention John 3,etc, etc.?
Are you unaware or do you simply reject all passages that directly attribute your faith and salvation to God alone, without your assistance.

We simply reject your graceless, merit based teaching.