John 3:5 does not require (or even speak about) Baptism for Salvation (The Other Denom, Edition)

[MarysSon]

This is not talking about water baptism. Peter is talking about the Baptism with the Spirit

1 Pet. 3:21 is about the WATER that Noah was saved through.
It says:
and THIS WATER SYMBOLIZES BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES YOU also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Don't you READ the Bible??

 

[Reformed1689]

There is no quote from an Early Church Father in post #8.
Just your bad interpretation of John 3:5.

I asked for QUOTES from the Early Church Fathers . . .

Are you kidding me? Read post 8 again. I put 2 quotes from the Church Fathers there.

 

[Reformed1689]

1 Pet. 3:21 is about the WATER that Noah was saved through.
It says:
and THIS WATER SYMBOLIZES BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES YOU also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Don't you READ the Bible??

Yes, and I read where it says not as a removal of dirt from the body. In other words, water baptism is not what saves.

 

[MarysSon]

St. Ambrose did not hold this view:

WRONG.

Ambrose
The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.... "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (On Abraham 2:11:79-84 [A.D. 387]).

I could go on, but last I checked, both of them were WELL BEFORE the 16th century.

Then please DO . . .

 

[Reformed1689]

WRONG.

Ambrose
The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.... "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (On Abraham 2:11:79-84 [A.D. 387]).

Then please DO . . .

Then Ambrose contradicted himself.

 

[MarysSon]

This is an outright lie. St. Chrysostom did not hold this view:

WRONG
Here is an excerpt pf one of his homilies on this VERY verse . . .
Yet even thus Nicodemus did not understand. Nothing is worse than to commit spiritual things to argument; it was this that would not allow him to suppose anything sublime and great. This is why we are called faithful, that having left the weakness of human reasonings below, we may ascend to the height of faith, and commit most of our blessings to her teaching; and if Nicodemus had done this, the thing would not have been thought by him impossible. What then does Christ? To lead him away from his groveling imagination, and to show that He speaks not of the earthly birth, He says, Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven. This He spoke, willing to draw him to the faith by the terror of the threat, and to persuade him not to deem the thing impossible, and taking pains to move him from his imagination as to the carnal birth. I mean, says He, another Birth, O Nicodemus. Why do you draw down the saying to earth? Why do you subject the matter to the necessity of nature? This Birth is too high for such pangs as these; it has nothing in common with you; it is indeed called 'birth,' but in name only has it anything in common, in reality it is different. Remove yourself from that which is common and familiar; a different kind of childbirth bring I into the world; in another manner will I have men to be generated: I have come to bring a new manner of Creation. I formed (man) of earth and water; but that which was formed was unprofitable, the vessel was wrenched awry; I will no more form them of earth and water, but 'of water' and 'of the Spirit.'

The Early Church was UNANIMOUS on John 3:5.

 

[MarysSon]

Then Ambrose contradicted himself.

No - YOU took home out of context like you did with John Chrysostom because you are dishonest . . .

 

[Reformed1689]

WRONG
Here is an excerpt pf one of his homilies on this VERY verse . . .
Yet even thus Nicodemus did not understand. Nothing is worse than to commit spiritual things to argument; it was this that would not allow him to suppose anything sublime and great. This is why we are called faithful, that having left the weakness of human reasonings below, we may ascend to the height of faith, and commit most of our blessings to her teaching; and if Nicodemus had done this, the thing would not have been thought by him impossible. What then does Christ? To lead him away from his groveling imagination, and to show that He speaks not of the earthly birth, He says, Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven. This He spoke, willing to draw him to the faith by the terror of the threat, and to persuade him not to deem the thing impossible, and taking pains to move him from his imagination as to the carnal birth. I mean, says He, another Birth, O Nicodemus. Why do you draw down the saying to earth? Why do you subject the matter to the necessity of nature? This Birth is too high for such pangs as these; it has nothing in common with you; it is indeed called 'birth,' but in name only has it anything in common, in reality it is different. Remove yourself from that which is common and familiar; a different kind of childbirth bring I into the world; in another manner will I have men to be generated: I have come to bring a new manner of Creation. I formed (man) of earth and water; but that which was formed was unprofitable, the vessel was wrenched awry; I will no more form them of earth and water, but 'of water' and 'of the Spirit.'

The Early Church was UNANIMOUS on John 3:5.

This very quote PROVES MY POINT. He knows that water is talking about the earthly birth. He says it right in this passage.

 

[Particular]

Every Early Church Father who wrote on the subject UNANIMOUSLY believed that John 3:5 was about Baptism.
Show me ONE Early Church writing to the contrary . . .

John 3:5 is to the contrary. John the Apostle didn't say anything about baptism.
david has already named some church father's who didn't teach baptism in John 3:5. Did you not read what he wrote?
Also, any writing coming from the State Controlled Church of Rome is not valid as it was run by the political system. Church and State do not make good bed fellows. Power becomes the main goal rather than shepherding God's sheep.

 

[MarysSon]

This very quote PROVES MY POINT. He knows that water is talking about the earthly birth. He says it right in this passage.

Uhhhh, what are YOU reading??
He says LOUD and clear:
Remove yourself from that which is common and familiar; a different kind of childbirth bring I into the world; in another manner will I have men to be generated: I have come to bring a new manner of Creation. I formed (man) of earth and water; but that which was formed was unprofitable, the vessel was wrenched awry; I will no more form them of earth and water, but 'of water' and 'of the Spirit.'

He is saying that "Water and spirit" is DIFFERENT than natural childbirth.
What unbelieveable dishonesty . . .

 

[MarysSon]

John 3:5 is to the contrary. John the Apostle didn't say anything about baptism.
david has already named some church father's who didn't teach baptism in John 3:5. Did you not read what he wrote?
Also, any writing coming from the State Controlled Church of Rome is not valid as it was run by the political system. Church and State do not make good bed fellows. Power becomes the main goal rather than shepherding God's sheep.

Ummmmmm, first of all - I DEBUNKED David's "quotes" and showed that these 2 Early Fathers AGREED with the Church on John 3:5.

ALSO - I named several Pre-Nicene Fathers so your argument about the "state Church" goes right out the window . . .

 

[Reformed1689]

emove yourself from that which is common and familiar; a different kind of childbirth bring I into the world; in another manner will I have men to be generated:

YES he is talking about the birth of the SPIRIT. Not water.

He is saying that "Water and spirit" is DIFFERENT than natural childbirth.
What unbelieveable dishonesty . . .

No, he is saying SPIRIT is different than natural birth. Water, as he said in my quotes, IS the natural birth.

 

[Reformed1689]

Ummmmmm, first of all - I DEBUNKED David's "quotes" and showed that these 2 Early Fathers AGREED with the Church on John 3:5.

ALSO - I named several Pre-Nicene Fathers so your argument about the "state Church" goes right out the window . . .

If you think you debunked anything you are delusional. In fact, I made your arguments look idiotic that these teachers thought that water in John 3:5 meant baptism and not earthly birth.

 

[Reformed1689]

No - YOU took home out of context like you did with John Chrysostom because you are dishonest . . .

No, because I showed a direct quote where he said water is earth birth. Sorry that your precious church fathers, who did not write Scripture by the way and have no real bearing on anything, contradicted themselves.

 

[Particular]

The Bible states explicitly that Baptism saves us:

1 Pet. 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Read all of this chapter. Peter actually goes out of his way to clarify to us what he is discussing. In this passage he is talking about the coming judgment and how God previously judged the world with a flood of which only his elect were saved from the immersion of water. (Baptism) Peter then tells us he's not taking about water baptism as a saving action. So it's not saying what you claim.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Greek in this verse connects repentance with forgiveness of sins. So the meaning is as such:
Repent for the forgiveness of sins and be baptized. In English we lose that emphasis so it appears as though baptism and repentance forgives sins, but that is not the way the Greek language works.

So, the two verses you pluck don't mean what you are claiming they mean.
The conclusion is clear. Water baptism does not save anyone.

 

[MartyF]

I think Galatians makes the problem with Roman Catholicism very clear.

Galatians 1:8-9 NLT
[8] Let God's curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. [9] I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.

There are tons of things that the Roman Catholic Church requires which have no biblical reference and were not part of the Bible. Among the worst are indulgences, and the assumption of Mary.

A Catholic is also never sure of his or her salvation. For many, it is a culture that they are a part of and like the Jews of the Bible and they seem to think salvation is passed on through family and culture.

This is how I am saved.

Romans 10:8-13 NLT
[8] In fact, it says,

"The message is very close at hand;
it is on your lips and in your heart."

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: [9] If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. [11] As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced." [12] Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. [13] For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."

How are you saved? How do you know that you are going to Heaven?

 

[Particular]

Clement of Rome (?-110), “And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter 32).

Polycarp (69-150), "by grace ye are saved, not of works,' but by the will of God through Jesus Christ . . . If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, 'we shall also reign together with Him,' provided only we believe . . . " (Epistle to the Philippians, 1, 5, 8)

Marius Victorinus (280-?): Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ. For the patriarchs prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith. Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham that he had faith, so we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous.

Early Church Fathers on Baptism and Salvation | CARM.org

 

[Dave G]

John 3:5 is clearly talking about your physical birth. Verse four makes this clear. Nicodemus wants to know if we are supposed to go back to the womb. Jesus explains no, both water (womb) and spirit. This has nothing to do with baptism in any stretch of the imagination.

How about, instead of physical birth, "water" is referring to the word of God?

" That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word," ( Ephesians 5:26 ).
" Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." ( John 15:3 ).
" Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." ( John 17:17 ).

 

[loDebar]

Explain why it is necessary to mention being born physically and then spiritually ? Why is physical birth required to be mentioned?

 

[Reformed1689]

How about, instead of physical birth, "water" is referring to the word of God?

" That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word," ( Ephesians 5:26 ).
" Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." ( John 15:3 ).
" Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." ( John 17:17 ).

Because the context doesn't allow for that.

Explain why it is necessary to mention being born physically and then spiritually ? Why is physical birth required to be mentioned?

Because Jesus is trying to meet Nicodemus on his terms and explain to him what he is talking about.