John 5:25-29??

[convicted1]

John 25-29

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Now, I hear the other side of the debate and how the spiritually dead can not hear God unto they are "quickened"/"made alive"/"regenerated", and then, and only then, can they hear. Now, how do you explain that those who are resurrected to the resurrection of damnation are able to hear God when He calls them from their graves? Remember, millions, and probably billions will have been in the ground for centuries, and their physical bodies have probably mouldered back to the dust. So please explain this, that those who are spiritually dead are able to hear God and yet they are resurrected to be cast into the "second death", where, death, hell, satan and his minions will be cast too.

I posted this in the "faith a reuquiremnt?" thread, and I guess they missed it?

 

[AresMan]

John 25-29

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Now, I hear the other side of the debate and how the spiritually dead can not hear God unto they are "quickened"/"made alive"/"regenerated", and then, and only then, can they hear. Now, how do you explain that those who are resurrected to the resurrection of damnation are able to hear God when He calls them from their graves? Remember, millions, and probably billions will have been in the ground for centuries, and their physical bodies have probably mouldered back to the dust. So please explain this, that those who are spiritually dead are able to hear God and yet they are resurrected to be cast into the "second death", where, death, hell, satan and his minions will be cast too.

I posted this in the "faith a reuquiremnt?" thread, and I guess they missed it?

There were plenty of unregenerate people who heard Jesus while He was incarnate. That didn't mean anything special. One dead in trespasses and sins can physically hear the words of the gospel, but does not "hear" the truth and relevance of it to himself unless God rebirths him through the Word.
This is different from Jesus' proclamation at the last day effectually calling every person to judgment.

 

[convicted1]

There were plenty of unregenerate people who heard Jesus while He was incarnate. That didn't mean anything special. One dead in trespasses and sins can physically hear the words of the gospel, but does not "hear" the truth and relevance of it to himself unless God rebirths him through the Word.
This is different from Jesus' proclamation at the last day effectually calling every person to judgment.

I don't know if this entirely answers the thread's question(s) or not. It is a good response, though. 2 Cor. 2:14 gets bandied around here a lot, and yet the natural men, in a dead state, will answer when God calls them from their graves.

I contend that God's voice is so powerful that even the spiritually dead, in their dead state, can, and does, hear God's voice. Spiritually dead=seperated from God because of their sins, not a lifeless corpse.

 

[Amy.G]

This is not a call to salvation but a call to judgment. Jesus is speaking of the judgment in which all who did not believe will face the second death.

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective, out of context.

 

[convicted1]

This is not a call to salvation but a call to judgment. Jesus is speaking of the judgment in which all who did not believe will face the second death.

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective, out of context.

Maybe this OP is an "apples-to-pears" comparison, but how can the dead not hear God while above ground, but underground they can? Either way, Sissy, God's call is His calling out to them. If they have to be made alive, and then saved after this regeneration(being made alive to hear Him), how can they be dead, and hear, without first being regenerated(buried in their graves)? Seems out-of-sorts to me.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I tend to think that this confusion arises from only one thing: an unnecessary equivocation on the part of Calvinism:

Spiritual "death" or "deadness" is made to be in all ways equivalent to

Physical "death" or "deadness" but the two are simply not the same nor should they be thought of as the same.
In order to justify the Theological idea that one "Spiritually" dead should be compared to the one "physically" dead, then we should find that according to
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Then Adam and Eve would have Physically died that day as well....but they didn't....therefore...to consistently justify the persistent comparison of the two, by ignoring the Law of First Mention is unjustified...but upon this rests a good 45% of the strength of Determinist arguments.

If you take away the equivocation between Spiritual death and Physical Death, much of the argument collapses: The two are simply not the same...I recall reading the presumably ingenius blow-hard R.C. Sproul endlessly bloviating in Chosen by God about how a "dead man" can't even reach out to a life raft thrown to him because he is not "drowning" but already "dead" and blah blah blah....does that particular idiot have an I.Q. over 6? Really??? I am not a Calvinist personally, Because I have heard the arguments...and this particular equivocation might be the weakest one it has, but ALSO one of the most critical.

 

[convicted1]

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/DeadCannotBelieve.htm

Dave Hunt, in his book 'What Love is this?', quotes A.W Pink (a hyper - Calvinist, the doctrine of which Dave's book is written against) who wrote
"There are some who say the unregenerated are dead, and that ends the matter - they cannot have responsibility... A corpse in the cemetery is no suitable analogy of the natural man. A corpse is incapable of performing evil. A corpse cannot "despise and reject" Christ (Isa 53:3), cannot "resist the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51), cannot disobey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8); but the natural man can and does these things."

Now, I could not find a link to A. W. Pink writing this, so this may, or may not, be true.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Perhaps the best delineation of physical and spiritual life or death (respectively) that I have ever seen was in the book of Job...I got to preach this on Easter Sunday this year....

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:

The book of Genesis tells us that:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Equivocating between physical and spititual death or life is a disgusting, nasty- heretical doctrine intolerable by those who take God's word literally. If man's "Soul" or man's "Spirit" is not that which makes him "In the image of God"..." "In the image of God made he them" then sure.....our Calvinist brethren are correct.....Genesis 1 must submit to Calvin's interpretation of 2 Cor. 2:14....and it is not the case that Job (after his body is destroyed by worms) shall "in his flesh see God".

I quote the ever wise Obiwan Qenobi "Your feelings do you credit (convicted 1)" this equivocation between physical or natural death and spiritual death exists in one location only....Calvinist dogma

 

[kyredneck]

John 25-29

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

....The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. Jn 5:25

'And now is', there were those, at the time, prior to the resurrection and the ripping of the temple veil, that were being made alive by Christ. I say this is in reference to all His born from above saints, from Adam on.

Kinda like:

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. Jn 4:23

'And now is' , there were those, at the time, prior to the resurrection and the ripping of the temple veil, that were worshiping the Father in spirit and truth. I say this is in reference to all His born from above saints, from Adam on.

 

[AresMan]

Being "dead in trespasses and sins" is different from being "dead from physical life." The "in trespasses and sin" is the modifier to explain what "type" of dead is being discussed.

If one is physically dead, one cannot do that which characterizes someone who is physically alive without the miracle of a resurrection coming from an ontologically distinct being.

If one is (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins, the implication is that one in this state cannot do that which characterizes someone who is (spiritually) alive and freed from trespasses and sin.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Only God has the power to raise the dead: both the physically dead and the dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[convicted1]

Being "dead in trespasses and sins" is different from being "dead from physical life." The "in trespasses and sin" is the modifier to explain what "type" of dead is being discussed.

If one is physically dead, one cannot do that which characterizes someone who is physically alive without the miracle of a resurrection coming from an ontologically distinct being.

If one is (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins, the implication is that one in this state cannot do that which characterizes someone who is (spiritually) alive and freed from trespasses and sin.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Only God has the power to raise the dead: both the physically dead and the dead in trespasses and sins.

But again, why can they not be able to hear God in an unregenerated state, but have to be made alive to be able to respond to God's call in one instance, and not have to be made alive to answer God's call when He calls them from their graves? This is what I am driving at. If one has to be quickened to have the ability to respond to God's call to salvation, then I would think it suffice to say that they would have to be quickened to be able to have the ability to respond to God's call when He calls them forth from their graves. IOW, I totally refute pre-faith regeneration.......

 

[convicted1]

....The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. Jn 5:25

'And now is', there were those, at the time, prior to the resurrection and the ripping of the temple veil, that were being made alive by Christ. I say this is in reference to all His born from above saints, from Adam on.

Kinda like:

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. Jn 4:23

'And now is' , there were those, at the time, prior to the resurrection and the ripping of the temple veil, that were worshiping the Father in spirit and truth. I say this is in reference to all His born from above saints, from Adam on.

But why don't they have to be quickened prior to God calling them from the grave?

BTW, thank you for your adding to this thread. We may totally disagree with each other, but I do like to have a civil debate.

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis,

Spiritually dead......seperated.......does not mean long distance.....
the seperation is internal in the mind and heart....it is not that they cannot physically hear...but there is a disconnect....they blow a fuse[spiritually] their brain malfunctions...their heart.....is stone.

Thats why regeneration is needed:type:

But why don't they have to be quickened prior to God calling them from the grave?

quickening is unto "spiritual life" only.....Willis...like the little boy in the sixth sense movie...we see DEAD people, they do not know they are dead....and they want us to help them

 

[convicted1]

Willis,

Spiritually dead......seperated.......does not mean long distance.....
the seperation is internal in the mind and heart....it is not that they cannot physically hear...but there is a disconnect....they blow a fuse[spiritually] their brain malfunctions...their heart.....is stone.

Thats why regeneration is needed:type:



quickening is unto "spiritual life" only.....Willis...like the little boy in the sixth sense movie...we see DEAD people, they do not know they are dead....and they want us to help them

Wait a minute now. Your side of the debate states emphatically that the dead need to be quickened to hear God's call. How can those who are dead in the ground hear when He calls if they are not quickened/new birth/regenerated, etc? So far no one has addressed this.

 

[convicted1]

Willis,

Spiritually dead......seperated.......does not mean long distance.....
the seperation is internal in the mind and heart....it is not that they cannot physically hear...but there is a disconnect....they blow a fuse[spiritually] their brain malfunctions...their heart.....is stone.

Thats why regeneration is needed:type:



quickening is unto "spiritual life" only.....Willis...like the little boy in the sixth sense movie...we see DEAD people, they do not know they are dead....and they want us to help them

Try telling that to the rich man who in hell, wanted Lazarus to first, put a drop of water on his burning tongue. Then when that could not happen, he asked Father Abraham to send him to warn his five brothers to not come to that awful place. He was well aware that he was dead. He knew he was in torments in those flames.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wait a minute now. Your side of the debate states emphatically that the dead need to be quickened to hear God's call. How can those who are dead in the ground hear when He calls if they are not quickened/new birth/regenerated, etc? So far no one has addressed this.

Yes.....quickened....unto eternal life
translated from darkness to light

quickened ...is unto spiritual new birth:wavey:

the CALL is unto salvation.....effectually called to be SAINTS

 

[convicted1]

Willis,

Spiritually dead......seperated.......does not mean long distance.....
the seperation is internal in the mind and heart....it is not that they cannot physically hear...but there is a disconnect....they blow a fuse[spiritually] their brain malfunctions...their heart.....is stone.

Thats why regeneration is needed:type:



quickening is unto "spiritual life" only.....Willis...like the little boy in the sixth sense movie...we see DEAD people, they do not know they are dead....and they want us to help them

And furthermore, 2 Cor. 2:14 gets bandied about on here a lot, and how can those physically dead bodies hear God's call if God doesn't communicate with them?

 

[Iconoclast]

Try telling that to the rich man who in hell, wanted Lazarus to first, put a drop of water on his burning tongue. Then when that could not happen, he asked Father Abraham to send him to warn his five brothers to not come to that awful place. He was well aware that he was dead. He knew he was in torments in those flames.

:type:exactly Willis...in hell he now understands the doctrines of grace....but not being quickened unto life eternal....he remains eternally in the realm of second death:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

And furthermore, 2 Cor. 2:14 gets bandied about on here a lot, and how can those physically dead bodies hear God's call if God doesn't communicate with them?

:type:exactly Willis....the natural man cannot hear savingly...he rejects it everytime.....the passage says he that has the Spirit...CAN freely receive what God gives to believers:wavey: nice and easy...right!!

 

[convicted1]

:type:exactly Willis....the natural man cannot hear savingly...he rejects it everytime.....the passage says he that has the Spirit...CAN freely receive what God gives to believers:wavey: nice and easy...right!!

Whoa boy, whoa!! :laugh:

Yall state all the time the natural man can not hear God, and yet that same natural man will hear God when He calls him/her from the grave. Yall state that they dead soul can't hear God, and yet Adam and Eve, Cain, the rich man, et al heard Him plainly(in the rich man's case, he spoke with Abraham).

You have lessened God's power. I state that it's powerful enough to communicate with the spiritually dead, and you say that the soul must be made alive, and then, and only then, can it hear God when He speaks.