Then show it
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
John 6:37,65
- Thread starter RipponRedeaux
- Start date
- Status
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Well, describe it from the scriptures and I will tell you then. I do not know what you are speaking of, and I do not think you do either. Where am I going to have this sin nature explained by a writer of the scriptures?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Meaning we are born in sin. We have it from birth. We are not born sinless. That is a heresy.
No proof David that's you then.
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Which according to your Calvinism is controlled by your version of a sovereign God. So that means that even those that do not believe only do so because your god makes them not believe. But your going to claim that He is sovereign but He is just not able to give those sinners a free will as that would mean that He really is not sovereign. You Calvinists really have a restricted view of Gods' sovereignty.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Ro.9:18)
Well presented
thank you
thank you
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So on what basis does He harden some and not others.
Okay, the scriptures define sin quite plainly. Find the quotes and post them for the rest of us to see. Take your time.
If you can't get it done, I will come back and do it for you.
Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Romans 1:18,21-25 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Romans 5:12-13 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Galatians 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods.
Why do you demand that God tell you? Does God owe you an answer before you can believe his word?
Romans 9:14-33 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessdid not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
We have to live with the mystery.
We do, however, know the purpose for Pharaoh's heart being hardened.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
I find it very telling that you refuse to accept God's word and require more before you can believe. That is the very same trait of the Pharisee's.
I recognize you from your former comments on this thread. You are a man who cannot defend Calvinism but you have it as an adopted position. That is the reason you have no confidence in any quote from the scriptures and just offer silly comments without substance. And so, even though this thread is getting far away from John 6 I am going to give you the biblical definition of sin. I am not guessing about it. I have it in black and white as the testimony of God himself. You or none of the Calvinists on this board will believe it because Calvinism is not based on belief of the words of the Scriptures. It is based on made up words and ideas that contradict the scriptures on every subject.
Here is the clear unambiguous definition of sin straight from the scriptures.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Here is how a command is given and and an illustration of men setting the command aside in transgression. Read it with me.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter].
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which [was] Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
You see the commandment in verse 30.
Now watch this and learn from the scriptures;
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Now you are prepared to tell me and others that people transgressed the law of God before they were born?
Sin is an action of the body that transgresses a known and revealed law of God. One must have the cognitive ability to know before they can transgress the law. Jesus Christ was examined by God and man for 3 1/2 years of public ministry for things done in his body that could be deemed a transgression of the law of God or man, and none could be found. That is what they looked for. A deed.
Watch this;
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world (by his deed done in his body of transgressing the one law he had been given by God - don't eat of that tree) , and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Who is the all here? It is the people who lived from Adam to Moses, none of whom had the written law of God.
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (imagine that)
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
The point here is that sin caused physical death in Adams race, every one, because all people born of him was in his image and did not have eternal life in them, who is the Spirit. It was not sin that passed upon all men because of father Adam's sin, but spiritual and physical death that passed upon all men. Men born in the image of Adam did not have the indwelling Spirit, who for the born again son of God is the power over sin in the body and so all sin because sin rules in our realm as a king over us.
Ge 5:1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Ge 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Ge 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Above is physical death that every one of Adam's race has experienced or can expect to experience. But there is a second death is the one born of Adam is not born of God and it is caused by the sins done in the body.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it (the soul) shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Well there is plenty more to this story but I am shutting it down with this next quote. Remember the GIFT here is the Spirit and the Spirit is eternal life by virtue of being in the body of the repentant sinner birthing him as a son of God.
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
I am confused by your post if you think "sin nature" is mentioned somewhere in it. What is being described is the "natural man," who is a man born of a man and a woman in the physical realm but has not been born again of the Spirit of God and become a son of God.
My charge against you is proven more and more with each comment. Calvinists makes it up as they go.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin you should know by now that I am not questioning God or scripture just the twisted way that Calvinists deal with it.
RipponRedeaux
Well-Known Member
That is totally up to God. God is just. He mercies some and hardens others. It pleases him to do both.
I am not confused by your tactics. You can see and read. In each passage the our radical corruption is shown. But, in order that you remain stuck amongst your stumbling blocks, you demand an exact wording.
Your ploy is silly and shows that you have purposely closed your mind. I leave you to live in your fantasy world.
I know by now that that is exactly what you are doing. The text is shown and then you demand to know more before you will accept what God says. This entire dialogue is you demanding from God that which He keeps to Himself and from us He requires faith.
When I identify your behavior as being similar to the Pharisees, I am not wrong.
The text tells us what we need to know. God has mercy on whom he has mercy and he hardens whom he hardens. That is God's choice and neither you nor I are on a need to know basis with God. We need to accept the low position we have with God.
The eunuch could see and read Isa 53 when Phillip was sent to him in Acts 8 but he asked the question when Phillip asked him if he understood what he was reading, "how can I except some man guide me?"
I think Calvinism is not true in any of it's doctrines. That does not mean I think you or any of these other Calvinists are bad people. You guys are probably nice people who it would be pleasant to hang out with and maybe go play golf with, but you are deceived by this false religious system. You would never approach any other document under the same literary rules that Calvinism imposes upon you. These same teachers would not be permitted by you to use these tactics if they were in charge of administering your will of a very large estate where you were one of the heirs. You would want careful context and exact wording lest you get cheated by misapplication of context and bad definition of words.
The scriptures must be understood in the words God has given us. You do not have a right to add or take away lest you corrupt the meaning of the mind of God. His wisdom comes from him to us in words he has chosen.
Thank you for the conversation. I still plan on answering your post on another thread.
- Status